Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[KOREAN DAVE]

Discourse on colonialism in a fantasy game exclusively about race wars, despite being far less relevant, somehow manage to beat the already subterranean levels of discussion on actual colonialism, which boils down to how my group's conquest is good, whereas yours is bad. As to why the Blood Elf-Amani feud got this treatment instead of any of the others? I can tell you one reason I definitely don't think plays a part, though really it should - the Amani are the original Warcraft trolls and Zul'jin the original Warcraft troll. All others spawned from his loins, to the point where Darkspear still mention him on-click like they did in WC3. TBC's approach to the Amani was complete ass, and much like with Kargath, it contributed to the situation we have now, where all prominent WC2 Alliance characters are alive and in main roles, while the only one who was even alive at that stage Horde-side, Eitrigg, is an aged later addition to the franchise, who's only purpose since his conception is to disavow that incarnation of his faction and help humans.

As for why it took off? One, it's actually in the MMO and was there in its most popular years, so everyone is aware of it. Humans took more of the Amani and Gurubashi empire holdings than elves did, but all this is historical fluff that the game barely brings up, so they're home free, whereas orcs and night elves did clash in the RTS, but those are both more recognized as a territorial dispute and both races are too far removed from any easy real life analogy, despite tortured attempts to do so. On the other hand, the high/blood elves despite a hookah here and there and a few recent recolors, can obviously be equated to whichever European you don't like, whereas the Amani can in turn be conceptualized as pretty much any established native american empire. This also makes it salient given what's ongoing in the Middle East and the general treatment on twitter. Something to be said about how different discourse would be if the Blood Elves were more obviously an Ottoman analogy, but I digress. Making your fantasy game a vessel for how things might be nicer is tempting to the writers, who are older liberals and generally not interested in penning the racial revenge fantasy their younger counterparts definitely would.

This is also why the story is doomed. The Amani, even if far toned down from the Aztecs, still tortured and ate their prisoners and made blood sacrifices to their gods, they didn't just operate dance studios and chill. They were engaged in a zero-sum war of conquest/extermination as well. They can't do so if your goal is to cast them as put-upon victims, nor can you have the sort of inter-tribal conflicts that contributed to the fall of their real world analogues. This means that for them to feature and for the story to turn out about world peace they have to disavow the very same characterization and prominence that introduced them to the franchise and made them popular enough to even get this treatment - i.e Zul'jin and everything pre-Midnight. The elves in turn have to be cast as merely ignorant, but ultimately well-meaning, rather than actively and existentially at odds with the Amani. Liadrin is a therapist to Zul'jarra and is just unaware of the tribes instead of say, doing like her assumed real world analogue and using tribal feuds to advance her aims.

The basic facts of irreconcilable group interests and war, that even in much more simpler terms the franchise understood in WC2 are inaccessible to the writing staff due to the out of story cultural purpose of the story, and thus so is the extremely obvious solution - both amani and elves are playable on opposite sides and kill each other alongside their respective allies. This same culture war point mean that people take positions like this to own the writers, despite it being counterproductive to their interests:



Which was your favorite part, when Horde killed the OG troll character and his race on behalf of a meme human redneck character and a race that would be indistnguishable from high elves by expansion's end for the next twenty years? Or when Blizzard copy and pasted their own dungeon to skimp on costs?

The raid was fun and challenging. The dungeons were a fun callback.

[Super Dickmann]

The raid was fun and challenging. The dungeons were a fun callback.

Yeah, the raid was pretty good, might be some nostalgia for being one of the only ones when they were current content I actually did back in TBC. The dungeon though was completeley half-assed, especially compared to what they did with ZG, which was a proper new instance, just using the same assets. Must have been a budget/time issue, as it's not like ZA was much less played than ZG.

[Lady Atia]

Yeah, the raid was pretty good, might be some nostalgia for being one of the only ones when they were current content I actually did back in TBC. The dungeon though was completeley half-assed, especially compared to what they did with ZG, which was a proper new instance, just using the same assets. Must have been a budget/time issue, as it's not like ZA was much less played than ZG.

Tbf, the biggest problem was that both replaced their original versions. So for that, atleast ZA still was "the same" and they even brought back a recolour of the bear.

To this day classic ZG is only available via game versions that aren't connected to retail. :X

[GeometryWizard]

The sad thing is that this whole discussion of races not being relevant to the story told is something that only picked up after Bfa when the factions stopped mattering. Any race used to be able to just show up because their whole faction was involved with the overall plot and now that it revolves around dissecting the emotional trauma of a couple characters and revealing they have the intelligence of a small child in the process that doesn't happen anymore. For Midnight you have to be directly related to the Windrunners, blood elves, or wield the Light or you don't matter. The blood elves are going to ask the decimated night elf population for help instead of their own allies because "elven reunification" the story is completely subservient to buzzwords

Azeroth feels so stale and dead because everything has to be about the player and their lobotomized idiot companions like Arator and Liadrin who exist so the writers can enter their cliff notes into the game directly explaining the story and what the player is supposed to think and feel instead of making a remotely convincing story. The "story" is just reading the rough draft of something inept writers visibly struggle to put together and then abandon anyways a patch or an expansion down the line. When quest designers are confident enough to say on Twitter that all lore is subject to change at a whim and they constantly demonstrate they barely know anything about the setting they're writing for I seriously question how anyone who even likes this stuff can do so when you're being told upfront it'll just be thrown away with the rest of the lore anyways

[Super Dickmann]

Tbf, the biggest problem was that both replaced their original versions. So for that, atleast ZA still was "the same" and they even brought back a recolour of the bear.

To this day classic ZG is only available via game versions that aren't connected to retail. :X

Blizz have gotten better with this over the years, once they discovered they could just let you access the old phase. But Cata was the worst about permanently lost content. Nowadays between Zidormi and the endless legacy servers it doesn't make much difference.

[Cheezits]

It's a moot point, as Tauren would not feature in this plot, which we can deduce by the fact that they haven't in every other story that fit this bill. Now, the story could have gone to Night Elves but if there's one thing we most definitely not need more of it's Night Elf content. Which we're getting anyway as they'll be supporting the fight with Xal, unlike the smelly Horde which we can't allow to pollute Arator's bizarre adventure.

Ironically, we are getting Night Elves in the format that people have wanted for ages- a secluded "fuck you" group that have to be literally begged for their help. It would be cool if Malfurion was the Vanguard's ace in the hole but Blizz will sideline him.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Also, Arator isn't a moron, in fact he's one of the only mfs to see reason in the Eversong questline LMAO. Though, I haven't done his questline yet, so idk.

"Golly gee willickers! I never realized I could spec into Prot or Holy, or generally do acts of kindness other than killing baddies even though level 12 paladins did that in Classic. I, a forty year-old man, am flabbergasted by the fact that religious violence exists, and that there are ways to be religious other than religious violence. I have literally never begun to comprehend that the Light is responsive to faith after spending maybe a year or so surrounded by a multitude of paladins of various religions. I guess I just didn't have the single transient moment of downtime needed to overhear anything about other paladins in passing while I was surrounded by other paladins. I am a young soul at heart because half-elf aging is stunted, even though I've acted consistently like a mature adult up until Midnight. I am also absolutely shocked different groups can have animosity between one another over longstanding territorial disputes and centuries of bloodshed back and forth."

[Super Dickmann]

Ironically, we are getting Night Elves in the format that people have wanted for ages- a secluded "fuck you" group that have to be literally begged for their help. It would be cool if Malfurion was the Vanguard's ace in the hole but Blizz will sideline him.

I will readily admit to bias on this, partly because night elf posting has worn out its welcome over the preceding half a decade after being firmly on their side for BFA/SL. But also because being a massive Forsaken fan, I, personally, was targeted by Metzen with the very first sexy replacement to a race, when the Forsaken's identity as undead victims of Arthas gaining free will was off-loaded to the Ebon Blade and the Forsaken dropped off the plot post-Dragonblight, save for Sylvanas running away from Arthas, lest the story go to anyone except Paul Paladin #138159351 in Tirion.

This ultimately worked out for the best, mind, as the victim atoning out of duty Scourge remnant aspect getting offloaded to the Ebon Blade aspect meant that when Blizzard did actually commit to the transhumanist/expansionist approach to the Forsaken in Cataclysm, which was their best period. Tauren (more so) and Night elf (less so) fans have more reason to worry, as the chances of getting anywhere near as much focus as Cataclysm gave its races borders on zero. For the tauren anyway, the Night Elves've nothing to worry about, they're guaranteed more screentime. Even the Haranir obsess over the tree.

[milkmustache]

The sad thing is that this whole discussion of races not being relevant to the story told is something that only picked up after Bfa when the factions stopped mattering. Any race used to be able to just show up because their whole faction was involved with the overall plot

I was a pretty big "we don't need more faction war" guy up through 11.0. It was really exciting to see the Horde and Alliance's full forces gather on the shores of Khaz Algar, but then they sort of did... nothing. There was the campaign finale where some forces gathered at Dunelle's Kindness and Arathi's End to fight the Nerubians, but that was it. I'm glad they were there, but it's just really, really difficult to feel like anything prior to the current story matters when our character's history is just sorta tossed to the side and we become champion/outlander/maw walker to a new group and start from square one.

Maybe we don't need faction war on the scales of BFA again, but I'm certainly tired of the factions just acting like they have no agency. I really miss separate questing hubs for each faction. It made me play more, because I wanted to experience both.

The lack of hostilities between the Horde and the Alliance feels like it might be holding back the progression of those stories in a major way. Why should the Horde or Alliance set up a camp or fort in Khaz Algar? There's no attempt to establish a sphere of influence in the world anymore, everyone just wants to be our friend always because we're each others friends again. There's not even a cold war going on, and things just feel really stale from it.

I was hoping Midnight would bring a little of that in, so hopefully there's a bit more development with the Silver Covenant and Blood Elven rift. Maybe whatever comes after The Last Titan will be a bit more faction focused.

[Lady Atia]

Blizz have gotten better with this over the years, once they discovered they could just let you access the old phase. But Cata was the worst about permanently lost content. Nowadays between Zidormi and the endless legacy servers it doesn't make much difference.

Yeah, Cata with ZG (atleast there we had an early warning which was useless if no mounts wanted to drop) and WotLK with Naxx.

[Cheezits]

I just realized that having the Haranir focused on Teldrassil specifically, while a datamined Undercity string showed up in alpha, points to Nelves and Forsaken just getting their cities back IMO.

[Nymrohd]

I have to say while Voidstorm is not a pretty zone, it has the most effective use of a "skybox" to create the sense of a massive zone yet, far more so than Argus, anything in SL or Nyalotha. I can fly near the edge of the zone and actually think "oh that could be a second zone down there". And it really feels infinite

[Khaza-R]

I just realized that having the Haranir focused on Teldrassil specifically, while a datamined Undercity string showed up in alpha, points to Nelves and Forsaken just getting their cities back IMO.

Undercity should already be reclaimed by now. You cleansed the blight back in SL. They rest was just a matter of clearing the lower levels which was like 5 years ago in-game. At this point it should be habitable again.

Teldrassil is a whole other story from a technical and narrative point of view. The mistake was not just having the new tree grow out its ashes. I think at best we might find maybe one living root left and give it a chance to regrow one day.

[Nymrohd]

Undercity should already be reclaimed by now. You cleansed the blight back in SL. They rest was just a matter of clearing the lower levels which was like 5 years ago in-game. At this point it should be habitable again.

Teldrassil is a whole other story from a technical and narrative point of view. The mistake was not just having the new tree grow out its ashes. I think at best we might find maybe one living root left and give it a chance to regrow one day.

Would it not make more sense to have the Forsaken live aboveground in Capital City proper instead of hiding in the sewers?

[milkmustache]

I just realized that having the Haranir focused on Teldrassil specifically, while a datamined Undercity string showed up in alpha, points to Nelves and Forsaken just getting their cities back IMO.

Undercity should already be reclaimed by now. You cleansed the blight back in SL. They rest was just a matter of clearing the lower levels which was like 5 years ago in-game. At this point it should be habitable again.

Teldrassil is a whole other story from a technical and narrative point of view. The mistake was not just having the new tree grow out its ashes. I think at best we might find maybe one living root left and give it a chance to regrow one day.

It's a weird situation with both. Are we going to get plot threads about reclaiming destroyed cities again? Especially for ones that have both had some form of resolution to them.

But they can't really just give back Undercity, because then we're in an even more precarious situation than Silvermoon. Are you going to have another city where Alliance are visitors in a Horde city, or are you going to give former non-undead denizens of Lordaeron a chance to resettle their homes and live amongst the Forsaken? It's a situation that wouldn't please anybody unless done completely correctly, which I have no clue how that'd even work.

Unfortunately, I feel it'd be more likely that they'd spin that area into a Light based conflict area and raid.

Would it not make more sense to have the Forsaken live aboveground in Capital City proper instead of hiding in the sewers?

As a continuation of their story in Cataclysm, I think so, although it sheds a really interesting form of racial flavor they had.

[Hitei]

Undercity should already be reclaimed by now. You cleansed the blight back in SL. They rest was just a matter of clearing the lower levels which was like 5 years ago in-game. At this point it should be habitable again.

Teldrassil is a whole other story from a technical and narrative point of view. The mistake was not just having the new tree grow out its ashes. I think at best we might find maybe one living root left and give it a chance to regrow one day.

The mistake was the new city being a disappointing handful of buildings around a pool. Literally why even bother with the events of BfA if your endgame is just "okay, now Teldrassil is back"? I don't get why this playerbase will constantly complain about lack of stakes and development, and then turn around and active ask for them to diminish stakes and reset development.

Teldrassil staying gone was the correct choice. A subjective argument could have been made for picking Hyjal, or Feralas, as their new location instead of Bel'ameth, but the actual problem was not choice of location but effort of implementation. Much like Gilneas being given back to the Gilneans did not land because it amounted to friendly NPCs and some small construction in what is otherwise just the same ruined quest zone from 2010.

With the ability to phase layer save and access previous iterations of a zone via the zidormi tech, we should be getting more permanent changes not less. Shit like Lordaeron being a-okay besides the one front wall, or Brill being rebuilt, or Twodrassil growing out of the ruined husk of Teldrassil is exactly the opposite of how things should be progressing.

[milkmustache]

With the ability to phase layer save and access previous iterations of a zone via the zidormi tech, we should be getting more permanent changes not less. Shit like Lordaeron being a-okay besides the one front wall, or Brill being rebuilt, or Twodrassil growing out of the ruined husk of Teldrassil is exactly the opposite of how things should be progressing.

I definitely agree with you, but what is the real alternative? Midnight is the first time an old race has taken focus with meaningful development in 7 years, and I think a lot of that was contingent on needing the Sunwell for the Light/Void plot. I'm not sure they really know how to write for the old races anymore, and I'm not saying that to shit on them, but rather because I think they know it's a really precarious situation.

I ask "what is the real alternative" somewhat literally, by the way. I'm curious what you think would work opposed to what they're doing currently.

[Cheezits]

Not focusing on old races from SL - TWW was a huge fucking mistake and I hope Midnight does well enough for them to get their heads on straight that people like Warcraft stuff in World of Warcraft.

Housing pretty much ensures it, but yeah.

[Khaza-R]

Would it not make more sense to have the Forsaken live aboveground in Capital City proper instead of hiding in the sewers?

I guess it depends on how they are being written. In the older lore, the Forsaken sort of detested things that reminded them of their mortal lives. It brought them pain, not comfort to be reminded of it. So in that way, living necropolis fashion out of the catacombs under the Capital City always made sense for them. A twisted reflection of what once was, just like them.

In the newer writing that basically drops all nuance behind their undeath it makes not sense for them to chose Undercity over the ruins.

The mistake was the new city being a disappointing handful of buildings around a pool. Literally why even bother with the events of BfA if your endgame is just "okay, now Teldrassil is back"? I don't get why this playerbase will constantly complain about lack of stakes and development, and then turn around and active ask for them to diminish stakes and reset development.

Teldrassil staying gone was the correct choice. A subjective argument could have been made for picking Hyjal, or Feralas, as their new location instead of Bel'ameth, but the actual problem was not choice of location but effort of implementation. Much like Gilneas being given back to the Gilneans did not land because it amounted to friendly NPCs and some small construction in what is otherwise just the same ruined quest zone from 2010.

With the ability to phase layer save and access previous iterations of a zone via the zidormi tech, we should be getting more permanent changes not less. Shit like Lordaeron being a-okay besides the one front wall, or Brill being rebuilt, or Twodrassil growing out of the ruined husk of Teldrassil is exactly the opposite of how things should be progressing.

I agree. I don't think Teldrassil should just be undone and everything just return to the status quo. Personally I think they should of always just focused on re-centering Night Elves around Hyjal. But since they forced the story with the phase-shifting the tree from the ED into the real world, I am just saying Teldrassil's stump would of been a better place than some patch of water in the Dragon Isles.

[Hitei]

I definitely agree with you, but what is the real alternative? Midnight is the first time an old race has taken focus with meaningful development in 7 years, and I think a lot of that was contingent on needing the Sunwell for the Light/Void plot. I'm not sure they really know how to write for the old races anymore, and I'm not saying that to shit on them, but rather because I think they know it's a really precarious situation.

I ask "what is the real alternative" somewhat literally, by the way. I'm curious what you think would work opposed to what they're doing currently.

Honestly just leave them in ambiguous limbo.

I think you are better off writing a one-off secondary line that says "the Bilgewater cartel has mostly taken up residence in Undermine." than getting a x.x.7 patch questline where the goblins "rebuild Kezan" that amounts to the Cata starting zone being a place you can teleport to with friendly NPCs. Because at least the first option advances their story rather than the second option, which just says "the result of the past ~20 years of in-game time is that goblins are exactly where they were at Cata launch".

I think that Durotar's eventual jungle or the Draenei's hypothetical new city and/or ship being floating possibilities for the future are better states for those races than a hypothetical world where the result of 10.2 was that Amirdrassil grew into the world in Teldrassil's spot, and Bel'ameth was (as is) a new city under it but off the coast of Darkshore.

Because the former examples progress their story and the latter just canonizes that even the most disruptive events, like complete destruction of a race's home and most of their population, just lead to the race being exactly like it was before the event, living in the exact same spot but with slightly modified aesthetics.

-

A disruption like that should lead to new possibilities, not trying to land as close to home as possible. Being made refugees and settling on a different continent with their backs to an emerald dream portal that lets them hop to other important locations they have forces in like Hyjal or Feralas is a good move. Being in a place where they can going forward, have a closer relationship with dragons, or some political development with centaur and tuskarr, or gnolls, or have new beats with furbolgs is all a much better circumstance than them just re-settling coastal Darkshore.

As above, the issue is just that the implementation of Bel'ameth is extremely lackluster. It should have been an actual, though slightly smaller, Darnassus-like city space that pulled in those new storybeats rather than what it is.