Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

I guess it depends on how they are being written. In the older lore, the Forsaken sort of detested things that reminded them of their mortal lives. It brought them pain, not comfort to be reminded of it. So in that way, living necropolis fashion out of the catacombs under the Capital City always made sense for them. A twisted reflection of what once was, just like them.

In the newer writing that basically drops all nuance behind their undeath it makes not sense for them to chose Undercity over the ruins.



I agree. I don't think Teldrassil should just be undone and everything just return to the status quo. Personally I think they should of always just focused on re-centering Night Elves around Hyjal. But since they forced the story with the phase-shifting the tree from the ED into the real world, I am just saying Teldrassil's stump would of been a better place than some patch of water in the Dragon Isles.

From a storytelling perspective it's a bit of a drastic chagne. But from a meta perspective I can see the logic behind it. Undercity was partially chosen (I imagine) from a desire to make the Forsaken architecture immediately stand out from plagued Human settlements (i.e. regular houses, just ruined).
However, from WotLK onwards, the Forsaken got a more distinct architectural style, what with purple tones and coffin theming. While returning to Undercity is nice, I think a new Lordaeron could be distinct enough that it doesnt really need to be underground to stand out.

[Cheezits]

I actually REALLY don't like the Wrath/Cata Forsaken aesthetic. It seems cartoonish even for WoW.

[Joshuaj]

"Golly gee willickers! I never realized I could spec into Prot or Holy, or generally do acts of kindness other than killing baddies even though level 12 paladins did that in Classic. I, a forty year-old man, am flabbergasted by the fact that religious violence exists, and that there are ways to be religious other than religious violence. I have literally never begun to comprehend that the Light is responsive to faith after spending maybe a year or so surrounded by a multitude of paladins of various religions. I guess I just didn't have the single transient moment of downtime needed to overhear anything about other paladins in passing while I was surrounded by other paladins. I am a young soul at heart because half-elf aging is stunted, even though I've acted consistently like a mature adult up until Midnight. I am also absolutely shocked different groups can have animosity between one another over longstanding territorial disputes and centuries of bloodshed back and forth."

Funny you quote me, cause I just did the Arator questline this morning...

Wow, you guys weren't kidding LMAOOOO

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I actually REALLY don't like the Wrath/Cata Forsaken aesthetic. It seems cartoonish even for WoW.

It's meant to give the Forsaken their own style.

[Sondrelk]

I think you are better off writing a one-off secondary line that says "the Bilgewater cartel has mostly taken up residence in Undermine." than getting a x.x.7 patch questline where the goblins "rebuild Kezan" that amounts to the Cata starting zone being a place you can teleport to with friendly NPCs. Because at least the first option advances their story rather than the second option, which just says "the result of the past ~20 years of in-game time is that goblins are exactly where they were at Cata launch".

Really, all such a questline would need is to activate two more of the rocket trains in Undermine station, make one go to Bilgewater Harbor (for Horde only obviously), and the other go to Old Kezan. (Horde only optional)

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I actually REALLY don't like the Wrath/Cata Forsaken aesthetic. It seems cartoonish even for WoW.

Not that is is great, but it is distinct. And it's one that is clear enough that you don't need to double down on that theming by also having it be in a sewer. Just having some houses like that in Brill and Lordaeron would be a clear enough upgrade over what the Forsaken currently has.

Also it leaves the option of Undercity being an instance, which I think is a really fun idea that I have wanted for years.

[Joshuaj]

"Why are these Paladin relics not war-based? This person sang songs and did things unrelated to war? That's crazy..."

W...was this dude born yesterday?

[milkmustache]

It's meant to give the Forsaken their own style.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that it's not still very Scooby-Doo haunted house on the hill esque.

I'm not too bothered by it. I think Undercity was just as cartoonish... it had canals of green goo lol. I think BFA Forsaken had a really good feel to them, Nathanos aside (which even then... he wasn't that bad.)

EDIT: I think the old Forsaken aesthetic being just hidden and ruined human architecture is a really fun and real interpretation of their race, but they've clearly grown since BFA, and even moreso since that with SL and DF.

[Super Dickmann]

From a storytelling perspective it's a bit of a drastic chagne. But from a meta perspective I can see the logic behind it. Undercity was partially chosen (I imagine) from a desire to make the Forsaken architecture immediately stand out from plagued Human settlements (i.e. regular houses, just ruined).
However, from WotLK onwards, the Forsaken got a more distinct architectural style, what with purple tones and coffin theming. While returning to Undercity is nice, I think a new Lordaeron could be distinct enough that it doesnt really need to be underground to stand out.

I love the Tim Burton over the top look, and in general the Forsaken are fine territory-wise. They should have moved to the upper city pending their Cata direction as ewll and the Undercity as well was a bit naff from an aesthetic standpoint as the only Scourge-adjacent aesthetic thing they ever used, especially once an actual necropolis was offloaded to the Ebon Blade. Capital City should be a mix of its BFA incarnation and the BFA Darkshore asset aesthetic, which kept the same themeing, but was a lot less over the top, muted colours, darker hues, etc. The Forsaken dreadnought is gorgeous and it's criminal it's only used in a hostile context.

What they need is relevant screentime. They're completely wrecked in Midnight, being evicted from a zone they were the deuteragonist of originally (Ghostlands) and being dungeon bosses in their original incarnation. Their only saving grace is Sylvanas's showing. In TLT, Lilian and the nerubians should be followed up on. Calia can stay in the Sunwell in protective custody.

[GeometryWizard]

Not focusing on old races from SL - TWW was a huge fucking mistake and I hope Midnight does well enough for them to get their heads on straight that people like Warcraft stuff in World of Warcraft.

Housing pretty much ensures it, but yeah.

It doesn't matter if they bring back old races characters and zones if the way they handle them shows they barely know anything about their lore and vibes. Where they're failing time and time again is execution. Half the time anymore it's not even a case where it's a competently told story but not one appropriate for a given race or character, the story itself they're telling is abysmally written. There's truth in humor and there's a reason people joke all the time that there's no greater punishment for liking a race or character than them getting main story focus because it's almost inevitable they become twisted and bastardized into something unrecognizable to serve whatever random story beat or theme was come up with

The Amani/elf feud ranging across thousands of years being resolved by Liadrin tagging along and immediately being doubtful of her hatred for them and saying that learning things like the Amani worshiping different Loa is changing her views just makes her seem like a colossal, unlikeable idiot at best and at worst it feels like she's not even a character and instead you're basically listening to a quest designer talk to you directly about how they know barely anything about the lore or story and expect you to be impressed by them telling you things you've known for ages

That's why people trying to defend it by claiming they did the same trope/story in the past falls flat because it either comes down to the execution being better in the past example or it also being bad and you're just left going "it's always been shit" and effectively telling the other person they can't complain about something you both agree is awful. Thrall back in the day was also a young idealist striving for peace and he was one of the most popular characters in the story, compare that to how any modern WoW protagonist comes off like a complete moron and people can't wait for them to stop talking

They've backed themselves into an unwinnable situation and I don't see any improvement coming unless a lot of the people writing now are gone just like how they lost so much of the senior talent between Legion and SL that Danuser went from joining the team to head of the narrative within a few years

[Nymrohd]

I love the Tim Burton over the top look, and in general the Forsaken are fine territory-wise. They should have moved to the upper city pending their Cata direction as ewll and the Undercity as well was a bit naff from an aesthetic standpoint as the only Scourge-adjacent aesthetic thing they ever used, especially once an actual necropolis was offloaded to the Ebon Blade. Capital City should be a mix of its BFA incarnation and the BFA Darkshore asset aesthetic, which kept the same themeing, but was a lot less over the top, muted colours, darker hues, etc. The Forsaken dreadnought is gorgeous and it's criminal it's only used in a hostile context.

What they need is relevant screentime. They're completely wrecked in Midnight, being evicted from a zone they were the deuteragonist of originally (Ghostlands) and being dungeon bosses in their original incarnation. Their only saving grace is Sylvanas's showing. In TLT, Lilian and the nerubians should be followed up on. Calia can stay in the Sunwell in protective custody.

When are the Forsaken getting a port!!!!

[Super Dickmann]

When are the Forsaken getting a port!!!!

The dredging excuse was cool for how they got a fleet, but an actual port would be great for the primary Horde naval race.

[Joshuaj]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that it's not still very Scooby-Doo haunted house on the hill esque.

I'm not too bothered by it. I think Undercity was just as cartoonish... it had canals of green goo lol. I think BFA Forsaken had a really good feel to them, Nathanos aside (which even then... he wasn't that bad.)

EDIT: I think the old Forsaken aesthetic being just hidden and ruined human architecture is a really fun and real interpretation of their race, but they've clearly grown since BFA, and even moreso since that with SL and DF.

Never said it's not lol.

But yeah, I'm fine with it too. This is the same game where we have an emo undead void chick as the main antagonist of the current expac...

[Sondrelk]

I love the Tim Burton over the top look, and in general the Forsaken are fine territory-wise. They should have moved to the upper city pending their Cata direction as ewll and the Undercity as well was a bit naff from an aesthetic standpoint as the only Scourge-adjacent aesthetic thing they ever used, especially once an actual necropolis was offloaded to the Ebon Blade. Capital City should be a mix of its BFA incarnation and the BFA Darkshore asset aesthetic, which kept the same themeing, but was a lot less over the top, muted colours, darker hues, etc. The Forsaken dreadnought is gorgeous and it's criminal it's only used in a hostile context.

What they need is relevant screentime. They're completely wrecked in Midnight, being evicted from a zone they were the deuteragonist of originally (Ghostlands) and being dungeon bosses in their original incarnation. Their only saving grace is Sylvanas's showing. In TLT, Lilian and the nerubians should be followed up on. Calia can stay in the Sunwell in protective custody.

It's an overall vibe you get from Midnight, where it feels like the only reason they returned to Quel'thalas was not to explore how the world has evolved, but rather because that is where you will find the highest concentration of elves (besides Nelves). And that cramming in as many elves as possible was the primary focus.

Hopefully we do eventually return to an actual revamped Lordaeron, and we get the juicy story where the purification of the Plaguelands causes conflict between living and undead Lordaeron citizens.

[Joshuaj]

It's an overall vibe you get from Midnight, where it feels like the only reason they returned to Quel'thalas was not to explore how the world has evolved, but rather because that is where you will find the highest concentration of elves (besides Nelves). And that cramming in as many elves as possible was the primary focus.

Hopefully we do eventually return to an actual revamped Lordaeron, and we get the juicy story where the purification of the Plaguelands causes conflict between living and undead Lordaeron citizens.

I'd like it a ton if 12.2 was a revamped version of the Plaguelands, with an updated Stratholme, the Thalassian ridge area right next to Silverglade Refuge being filled, etc.

[Vakir]

"Why are these Paladin relics not war-based? This person sang songs and did things unrelated to war? That's crazy..."

W...was this dude born yesterday?

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

Man, I don't even hate Arator that much at certain points compared to Anduin, but that questline hurt to go through.

...and not just because getting 8 Dark Horde mobs was an awful experience.

[Joshuaj]

Imagine:
12.0- Quel'thalas with Void focus
12.1- That 1 island with Loa focus
12.2- Plaguelands with Light focus

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THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

Man, I don't even hate Arator that much at certain points compared to Anduin, but that questline hurt to go through.

...and not just because getting 8 Dark Horde mobs was an awful experience.

They REALLY gotta increase the levels of those mobs...

[milkmustache]

I'd like it a ton if 12.2 was a revamped version of the Plaguelands, with an updated Stratholme, the Thalassian ridge area right next to Silverglade Refuge being filled, etc.

Imagine:
12.0- Quel'thalas with Void focus
12.1- That 1 island with Loa focus
12.2- Plaguelands with Light focus

I definitely think there's room for something like this to happen, but I still can't shake the feeling that 12.1 is going to have more than just Atal'Utek. It'd be pretty insane if the Alpha managed to allow players to see the ENTIRE 12.1 zone. There's nothing to anticipate for patches at that rate, we just know what we're getting.

All of the old High Elf lodges feel like prime areas to come into play as well, good call. Maybe not as focal points, but flavor with the new assets they have. I'm really curious what bridges us to TLT. TWW > Midnight always felt like a situation where Xal gaining more power would bring us to the next phase of the story, but we're going to have to lose hard at some point in Midnight, after we just did in TWW. It'll be interesting. Could be something with the First Flame?

[Cheezits]

They definitely seem to be setting up SOMETHING with the High Elves this expansion beyond them having a new area, helping with one endgame chapter and dipping. It may tie into how they have no updated assets or models- because there are some planned for later on.

[Super Dickmann]

It's an overall vibe you get from Midnight, where it feels like the only reason they returned to Quel'thalas was not to explore how the world has evolved, but rather because that is where you will find the highest concentration of elves (besides Nelves). And that cramming in as many elves as possible was the primary focus.

Hopefully we do eventually return to an actual revamped Lordaeron, and we get the juicy story where the purification of the Plaguelands causes conflict between living and undead Lordaeron citizens.

Regarding Midnight, I don't see it. The races you see in the main roles - blood elves and void elves, are the obvious picks as the playable Thalassian elves of either faction. Their characterization is also entirely in keeping with their post-TBC identity (with all the brain damage of that one) for the blood elves and with what little there is of the void elves. The tension between the Blood Elves, the holy army and the void elves are also sensible and by both existing and having a race actually sensibly react to a foreign army occupying its capital city is the first time since Legion the story has played with this. Even bit characters like Halduron finally get to do something and have elements of the rangers not brought in since WC3 become relevant.

There are flies in the ointment, obviously, the Amani being a big one, but the factions themselves being the biggest one - the political/racial tension ongoing exists on the premise that the actual factions aren't involved, but the reason they aren't involved isn't there, save that the plot requires it. This isn't itself new - Legion excised the orcs from fighting their main baddie, shamans never do anything in the shaman expansion, but Legion was a time when the factions were relevant and different, and so their opposing each other was why they were mostly out of the main plot. During world peace, as @Skildar mentioned a while ago the plot has to contrive explanations why the enormous stable of allied gods don't descend on the threat like locusts and, faced with this impossible task and unwilling to just break them up or even to just say that all the wars have depleted them to nothing, it has opted not to address the topic at all.

[Nymrohd]

They definitely seem to be setting up SOMETHING with the High Elves this expansion beyond them having a new area, helping with one endgame chapter and dipping. It may tie into how they have no updated assets or models- because there are some planned for later on.

I just don't see it. The Void Elves get almost as much content as the Blood Elves with almost every quest in Voidstorm being Void Elf related, explaining how they function and building them in the world. It's like Blizzard telling High Elf fans "You are going to play a Void Elf and you'll like it!"

[Telogrus]

When was K’aresh destroyed? A few hundred thousand years ago, right?