Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

Am I the only one feeling that wow is being written from an alliance main character point of view? Blizz goes out of the way to make sure the alliance players feel immersed by in the game when horde characters, factions or cities are involved.

That's why we have the token alliance goblin as a main character in undermine, and the explanation of undermine bilgewater not being part of the horde, or now in midnight having a restricted area and a clear expanation of why we are there, alongside with many main alliance characters like Alleria, Turalyon and Umbric. They did the undermine bilgewater thing again with the Revantusk Amani trolls as well, so the alliance players don't feel they're helping the horde again.

On the other hand, all alliance content and characters are treated as neutral, so the horde players get unrestricted access to their cities/zones, factions and even allied races (Earthen, Haranir) and become best friends with main alliance characters like Alleria or Anduin with not much explanation or care for the horde character. Horde races are also getting more focus lately with goblins in undermine, BE and trolls (amani) in midnight, vs alliance which only get focus on adjacent copy paste allied races and factions (Earthen, Arathi, Haranir).

So, when/if we get alliance content like undermine/QT/Zul'aman in the form of a revamped alliance zone/city and main races as factions (humans, Dwarves, actual NW...), will blizz go out of the way to make the horde player immersed and give good reasons for them to feel like they're are actually playing the other faction?

It's a common trend where neutral stories are Alliances aligned, and faction war stories are Horde centric. The obvious reason is that the Alliance leaders are unquestionably good, i.e
Boring. And Horde leaders are complex, i.e. prone to being hit by the villain bat.

[Pyrophax]

Am I the only one feeling that wow is being written from an alliance main character point of view? Blizz goes out of the way to make sure the alliance players feel immersed by in the game when horde characters, factions or cities are involved.

That's why we have the token alliance goblin as a main character in undermine, and the explanation of undermine bilgewater not being part of the horde, or now in midnight having a restricted area and a clear expanation of why we are there, alongside with many main alliance characters like Alleria, Turalyon and Umbric. They did the undermine bilgewater thing again with the Revantusk Amani trolls as well, so the alliance players don't feel they're helping the horde again.

On the other hand, all alliance content and characters are treated as neutral, so the horde players get unrestricted access to their cities/zones, factions and even allied races (Earthen, Haranir) and become best friends with main alliance characters like Alleria or Anduin with not much explanation or care for the horde character. Horde races are also getting more focus lately with goblins in undermine, BE and trolls (amani) in midnight, vs alliance which only get focus on adjacent copy paste allied races and factions (Earthen, Arathi, Haranir).

So, when/if we get alliance content like undermine/QT/Zul'aman in the form of a revamped alliance zone/city and main races as factions (humans, Dwarves, actual NW...), will blizz go out of the way to make the horde player immersed and give good reasons for them to feel like they're are actually playing the other faction?

Always has been.
Alliance was "main hero" since Vanilla, especially after MoP.
In WoD we go to kill some orcs.
Legion was all about Alliance .
BfA narratively was about Alliance hero.
SL we saved not Baine or Thrall, we unite with Bolvar, former Alliance regent to save Anduin and Night Elves.
DF as Alliance-coded expedition and Wrathion we go to save Alliance aligned dragons abd NEs.
TWW completely erase Horde, make Horde goblins neutral and Horde-aligned races friendly with Alliance. Main character was one and only Alliance goblin. Karesh too
In Midnight we go with human paladin and his son. Also his Army. Horde trolls? You mean neutral trolls? Horde city of Blood Elves? You mean neutral city of elves plus Horde ghetto?

[Super Dickmann]

That is what I mean though. Some new character who can be what Sylvanas used to be. Though importantly, without the baggage that would make Sylvanas herself horribly untrustworthy if she returns.

It's still the case where if Sylvanas returns, then she cannot be the morally ambiguous person she used to be, which is what made her interesting. And if she does spin on a dime, then why would anyone trust her? She is proven willing to bargain with Supersatan in order to achieve her goals, so the only reason to do so is if you want a reason to instantly reignite faction conflict storylines. Except in this case, painting the Horde as either extremely stupid, or hopelessly naive for trusting her.

The only real demographic Sylvanas should work for, if reintroduced, should be the Forsaken in particular and the Horde in general. Trying to write obviusly Alliance and obviously Horde characters of very speciifc races, niches and fantasies to appeal to everyone has instead guaranteed them to appeal to no one, as their universalism rightly annoys Alliance players as they ignore endless slights made their way by the Horde, whereas it's not like the Horde like them any better as a result. Excluding her entirely was a doomed idea, but in terms of coming back, she would work best (save for a cameo here in Midnight) as a quasi-religious guardian figure snapping up souls.

Ideally, it should never have happened and she'd have stayed Forsaken leader, as that isn't the case, having her take back over would be a headache and a half and there wouldn't be much for her to do in that sense since for good and mostly very bad, that arc was already closed. Her as a presence informing the Forsaken and with ideas of her agenda and record being reused by current characters, be it your Belmonts, Velonaras or whoever would be better. The one story where she can get the lead role again, wuld be if we go to break the Shadowlands or whatever she can be the main Horde leader there, then at the end float off into the great unknown, fulfilling said religious role.

[Sondrelk]

The only real demographic Sylvanas should work for, if reintroduced, should be the Forsaken in particular and the Horde in general. Trying to write obviusly Alliance and obviously Horde characters of very speciifc races, niches and fantasies to appeal to everyone has instead guaranteed them to appeal to no one, as their universalism rightly annoys Alliance players as they ignore endless slights made their way by the Horde, whereas it's not like the Horde like them any better as a result. Excluding her entirely was a doomed idea, but in terms of coming back, she would work best (save for a cameo here in Midnight) as a quasi-religious guardian figure snapping up souls.

Ideally, it should never have happened and she'd have stayed Forsaken leader, as that isn't the case, having her take back over would be a headache and a half and there wouldn't be much for her to do in that sense since for good and mostly very bad, that arc was already closed. Her as a presence informing the Forsaken and with ideas of her agenda and record being reused by current characters, be it your Belmonts, Velonaras or whoever would be better. The one story where she can get the lead role again, wuld be if we go to break the Shadowlands or whatever she can be the main Horde leader there, then at the end float off into the great unknown, fulfilling said religious role.

Having Sylvanas "return" as a continuing figurehead for future leaders is a nice idea, very much in the vein of Stalin continuing the worship of Lenin.
Could definitely get some good stories out of that.

[Vakir]

@Super Dickmann

The amount of slurs I would need to censor or adapt... I opted to just be an oldbie instead.

The two novels really just don’t line up at all when it comes to the direction of the forsaken which makes sense with Steve’S obsession with sylvanas and how much of crap shoot every thing he did with her was in SL instead of Alex just killing off.

Fair re: book contractors, but at the same time they do have their long term influences a la Anduin's modern depiction from The Shattering.

I don't know if they'd be capable of killing Sylvanas, even with Alex at the pen. I'm honestly interested in the alt universe where they did to see the fallout and reaction from all sides. Absolutely incredible clusterfuck.

[allegrian]

It's a common trend where neutral stories are Alliances aligned, and faction war stories are Horde centric. The obvious reason is that the Alliance leaders are unquestionably good, i.e
Boring. And Horde leaders are complex, i.e. prone to being hit by the villain bat.

They are giving some complexity to alliance leaders lately, with the bronzebeards, anduin, alleria and Turalyon. They also focused on Tyrande and Jaina the last few expansion, so they're working to make the alliance less boring, regardless if it was a bit shitty at times.

On the other hand, they're working towards making the horde more boring with councils, removing grey characters and so on.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

How is FFXIV still getting nominated for best ongoing game? Its recent expansion was so poorly received. And the hype FFXIV gained from the Shadowlands disaster has long faded. Let it be known, FFXIV succeeds only when WoW fails. It cannot stand on its own two legs.

Don't take whatever is nominated too seriously.

In truth WoW is way above FFXIV in everything and it's not even close. Even WoW during it's worse was better than FFXIV during it's best.

WoW alone is still bigger and better than the other top mmorpgs like ESO, FFXIV, and Black Desert combined.

They all lacked a bunch of things that made WoW great and I'll say ESO could have come close if they just had more budget with character designs and for world building features.

[allegrian]

The only real demographic Sylvanas should work for, if reintroduced, should be the Forsaken in particular and the Horde in general. Trying to write obviusly Alliance and obviously Horde characters of very speciifc races, niches and fantasies to appeal to everyone has instead guaranteed them to appeal to no one, as their universalism rightly annoys Alliance players as they ignore endless slights made their way by the Horde, whereas it's not like the Horde like them any better as a result. Excluding her entirely was a doomed idea, but in terms of coming back, she would work best (save for a cameo here in Midnight) as a quasi-religious guardian figure snapping up souls.

Ideally, it should never have happened and she'd have stayed Forsaken leader, as that isn't the case, having her take back over would be a headache and a half and there wouldn't be much for her to do in that sense since for good and mostly very bad, that arc was already closed. Her as a presence informing the Forsaken and with ideas of her agenda and record being reused by current characters, be it your Belmonts, Velonaras or whoever would be better. The one story where she can get the lead role again, wuld be if we go to break the Shadowlands or whatever she can be the main Horde leader there, then at the end float off into the great unknown, fulfilling said religious role.

I think most alliance players would be ok with her returning as the forsaken leader but a bit less evil, at least towards the alliance. They should show the horde brutality and forsaken evil stuff against global enemies, not the alliance. This way you can have the alliance/horde vibe divide while not being a victim from it (the alliance being a victim of the horde, and then horde leaders being a victim of becoming raid bosses, hated by alliance players and killed).

But she should not come back before getting a northern Kalimdor revamp expansion where they heal her damage.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

They are giving some complexity to alliance leaders lately, with the bronzebeards, anduin, alleria and Turalyon. They also focused on Tyrande and Jaina the last few expansion, so they're working to make the alliance less boring, regardless if it was a bit shitty at times.

On the other hand, they're working towards making the horde more boring with councils, removing grey characters and so on.

I like Talanji and Thalyssra for the Horde but would really like Sylvanas or Loa Vol'jin to come back. I'll be fine with Garrosh, Rasktakhan, or Arthas coming back too to lead the Horde and Alliance.

[Cheezits]

Looks like we are getting a High Elf/Blood Elf team-up called the "Silversun Compact", there are spells hidden around with that title.

[Enrif]

BfA narratively was about Alliance hero.

What? You missed all the Sylvanas and Saurfang stuff? Saurfang that got 3 seperate high quality cinematics? Come on. Get your bias checked out. What did Anduin actually do in BfA? Most of the story was with Jaina on the Alliance side.

- - - Updated - - -

In truth WoW is way above FFXIV in everything and it's not even close. Even WoW during it's worse was better than FFXIV during it's best.

nah, that's cope. I play both, FF14 kills WoW in terms of story and respect for your time. Also, i like raids in FF14 way better than anything in WoW and having all classes on a single characters. The only parts that WoW wins out is the transmog system (not actual the looks, but the system), the number of races choices, and the historic lore, though FF14 lore is quickly catching up. Since i don't do M+ or PvP i can't rate that, but i like FF14 dungeons better than WoWs.

- - - Updated - - -

I think most alliance players would be ok with her returning as the forsaken leader but a bit less evil, at least towards the alliance. They should show the horde brutality and forsaken evil stuff against global enemies, not the alliance. This way you can have the alliance/horde vibe divide while not being a victim from it (the alliance being a victim of the horde, and then horde leaders being a victim of becoming raid bosses, hated by alliance players and killed).

But she should not come back before getting a northern Kalimdor revamp expansion where they heal her damage.

I wonder how they want to handle Sylvanas now after she has a restored soul. SL showed her very apologetic, while the snip of 11.2.7 shows her closer to her old self and not being apologetic.

I think if she returns she would be considered an outcast for most people. She may gather some old loyalists, but i doubt they align with the current Sylvanas. So, an outcast with maybe a few loyalists that liked her older self. .... jeez, sounds like a lot of people i see on the internet. Given that, i think the only way to make her work for the future are three ways: either a heroic sacrifice, or falling back into her old habits. Neither is great. the third: Doing the Medivh/Me'dan thing and going offscreen for a long long time, best a few decades, to later return in a undead focused capacity. Perhaps related to Denathrius.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Fair re: book contractors, but at the same time they do have their long term influences a la Anduin's modern depiction from The Shattering.

I don't know if they'd be capable of killing Sylvanas, even with Alex at the pen. I'm honestly interested in the alt universe where they did to see the fallout and reaction from all sides. Absolutely incredible clusterfuck.

I think even the shattering Anduin thing is heavily over blown. all the Anduinism's people point to as being From Golden were already set up before that book in the wow comics other then his use of the light, and then all of it carries forward into game in both cata and mop. Golden notable wanted him in the book where he otherwise wasn't but that's likely more so because he was already set to be the kind of character she likes not cause she was the one starting off/pushing such a depiction.

as to Alex killing Sylvanas, ya it wasn't ever likely to happen but it's pretty clear it's what he wanted with the whole her doing the wrath gate and other stuff and he likely got shot down hard like half way through BFA before he fired.

[Super Dickmann]

Having Sylvanas "return" as a continuing figurehead for future leaders is a nice idea, very much in the vein of Stalin continuing the worship of Lenin.
Could definitely get some good stories out of that.

It'd gel well with the obvious revolutionary undertone that the Forsaken have had going from Day 1 and it'd continue the personality cult, which is inextricable from the race, without getting into the weeds of trying to finagle her incomprehensible BFA characterization or the Bald Man.

@allegrian

The main fuck up above all others re: Sylvanas and her background is tying her with the Night Elves, which means she can't return to her position without triggering a Night Elf-Forsaken conflict or without being a terrible copout even worse than the already bad Gilneas one. Pitting Sylvanas and the Night Elves against each other, when they had no relation prior meant that the two were tied together in a way that can't really go anywhere, as they and the Forsaken have no shared borders or even competing interests, so forgiveness is off the table due to the scale of the act and conflict is boring as they've no places to fight over and no real thematic or territorial contest.

The only way I see it working is if blizzard dare to do split stories again and, again in the hypothetical Return to SL patch/Primus raid depending on who they make its antagonist, Sylvanas heads the Horde force in a realisation of her original SL goal, but on her own terms and Tyrande wages it as a holy war in the name of Elune. You'd have the holy war parallelism and as it'd be a continuation of the SL ending you wouldn't have to make everyone a gutless rube who forgives everything or alternatively, make Sylvanas apologize, as the upcoming patch very wisely avoids.

[Sondrelk]

I think most alliance players would be ok with her returning as the forsaken leader but a bit less evil, at least towards the alliance. They should show the horde brutality and forsaken evil stuff against global enemies, not the alliance. This way you can have the alliance/horde vibe divide while not being a victim from it (the alliance being a victim of the horde, and then horde leaders being a victim of becoming raid bosses, hated by alliance players and killed).

But she should not come back before getting a northern Kalimdor revamp expansion where they heal her damage.

The issue is that there are two options for her returning as the proper leader, not just de facto or leader in spirit. A d that is either reverse SL, in which case she is evil and we are counting down to Sylvanas Raid Boss 2.0, Domination Boogaloo.
Or she returns as Goodvanas from the end of SL. In which case the leader of the Forsaken is not the Sylvanas they used to have. But a new character who just looks like, and has the same name as Sylvanas.

[Super Dickmann]

I don't know if they'd be capable of killing Sylvanas, even with Alex at the pen. I'm honestly interested in the alt universe where they did to see the fallout and reaction from all sides. Absolutely incredible clusterfuck.

If Alex had stayed in the driver's seat re: Sylvanas, we'd still have the same kind of terrible world peace and unifaction, as that was at the core of his magnum opus, the Sadfang Chronicles. We'd also still have Shadowlands, as it was already in the works before he resigned and was even partly written (see Sylvanas's very early Maw preview dialogue where she sounds like her BFA self), concept art and all. The Forsaken would remain in their BTS condition of sadsacks without all their major characters. Most everything else I expect would remain broadly the same.

On the beneficial side, Sylvanas as Satan would be much likelier to be the actual SL endboss, given that expansion a better ending as I don't see Alex's 'Just as planned' smarmy caricature Sylvanas being a minion to anyone, especially given he also did Azshara turning on N'zoth. This'd also cut out her working with Kel'I destroyed the Sunwell'Thuzad, being sad about Anduin (instead enslaving him deliberately while snarking, which would do great for the fetish art), being a dumbass who trusts a Bald Man running a torture dungeon in another dimension. And if she retains his plan of reforging reality she'd be able to maintain a contingent claiming she did nothing wrong as her plan would become sensible and achievable instead of barking retardation based around trusting the most transparently untrustworthy and worst-received character in the setting.

[Pyrophax]

I think most alliance players would be ok with her returning as the forsaken leader but a bit less evil, at least towards the alliance. They should show the horde brutality and forsaken evil stuff against global enemies, not the alliance. This way you can have the alliance/horde vibe divide while not being a victim from it (the alliance being a victim of the horde, and then horde leaders being a victim of becoming raid bosses, hated by alliance players and killed).

But she should not come back before getting a northern Kalimdor revamp expansion where they heal her damage.

Like, Alliance players have no voice in that question.
Would Sylvanas return or not - it is Horde business.
Horde can't decide who will reign in Stormwind either.

[Therougetitan]

Like, Alliance players have no voice in that question.
Would Sylvanas return or not - it is Horde business.
Horde can't decide who will reign in Stormwind either.

I'd say Alliance players do considering how much the Horde needs them to babysit even after they throw a tantrum.

Bomb Theramore > Few patches later need the Alliance's help to retake Orgrimmar
Burn Teldrassil > Couple patches later needs Alliance help to confront Sylvanas outside Orgrimmar

The Horde has proven inept time and again at leadership then beg the people they attack for help so it is fair game for Alliance to have a say.

[Vakir]

her plan would become sensible and achievable instead of barking retardation based around trusting the most transparently untrustworthy and worst-received character in the setting.

I'm still super fucking annoyed that she was caught unawares by Varimathras, a betrayer death dimension vampire spawn demon that has the primary, defining characteristic of betraying people, especially when she collaborated with him on being a betraying betrayer in the past.

Unless you're of the impression she did the Wrathgate which is still wildly unclear. Including Alex bizarrely inferring she did at a Blizzcon.

And yeah, they definitely said she had her own agenda at another Blizzcon, but then we got hit with the You Got Served trigger phrase of clarity instead.

[Pyrophax]

I'd say Alliance players do considering how much the Horde needs them to babysit even after they throw a tantrum.

Bomb Theramore > Few patches later need the Alliance's help to retake Orgrimmar
Burn Teldrassil > Couple patches later needs Alliance help to confront Sylvanas outside Orgrimmar

The Horde has proven inept time and again at leadership then beg the people they attack for help so it is fair game for Alliance to have a say.

Hero syndrome to much?
Horde players bring neglected for decades, they don't need another shitstory about Alliance feelings

[Super Dickmann]

I'm still super fucking annoyed that she was caught unawares by Varimathras, a betrayer death dimension vampire spawn demon that has the primary, defining characteristic of betraying people, especially when she collaborated with him on being a betraying betrayer in the past.

Unless you're of the impression she did the Wrathgate which is still wildly unclear. Including Alex bizarrely inferring she did at a Blizzcon.

And yeah, they definitely said she had her own agenda at another Blizzcon, but then we got hit with the You Got Served trigger phrase of clarity instead.

Honestly, despite obviously being a big fan of Sylvanas, I don't think either the Wrathgate or some of her non-Bald Man related fuck-ups (Galen, Godfrey, etc.) are out-of-character. One of the reasons Sylvanas could work as a temporary Warchief and why the Forsaken end up gelling well with the Mag'har, is that contrary to what BFA would have you believe, Sylvanas isn't some distant mustache-twirler creating plans within plans. She's clever, sure, but at the end of the day she's a warlord, always at the frontline with her troops and prone to tunnel vision. At the time of the betrayal, Varimathras had no one to turn to, she overheard he himself discussing how the Legion were done and he couldn't exactly go turn to anyone else. Similarly, she would have no reason to think the Apothecaries would go easy on Arthas and provided that Arthas was dead, she wouldn't much care who else got in the crossfire, as that was pre-Edge of Night and she planned to off herself later. This too ends up working with her character flaws - at the time, she was deadset on Arthas, while she didn't really believe the Forsaken's new world order, Varimathras oversaw both the apothecaries and, if we go by Darthalia et al, major operations of the Executors. Provided they stayed on task, she wouldn't readily detect him building a powerbase to betray her with and she wouldn't be interested in the long-term implications as for her, unlike for her people, there would have been no long-term.

Her failing at detecting the betrayal coming, getting herself coup'd and then being put into martial law means it works better later when she returns, actually committed to being a state leader, reverses these losses and ends up being the one co-opting her overseer instead of vice versa (Cromush going from her minder to the main non-Forsaken leader).