Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Exactly. This idea that he's being turned into a villain bit-by-bit just isn't really true. It happens all at once, and we've already begun the process of that being wound back to rehabilitate his character. Arator's role is just to make him realise that there's another way to use the Light that he's become blind to over thousands of years of leading an army. His lesson is that the way the Army of the Light operates isn't at all consistent with how heroes of the Light behave, and he needs to regain the humanity that he lost when Xe'ra turned him into a machine of war.

See this is an angle you could take, but it doesn't mesh with what we see in the new novel at all where he hasn't lost any humanity and isn't a machine of war and is instead is the one healing civilians and going out of his way to help captured scouts instead of focusing on killing demons.

He's effectively a holy paladin for atleast the first half of the novel.

[Cheezits]

I think whatever's going on with Turalyon (not his shitty raid boss goons- War Chaplain Senn is cool though) is actually surprisingly pretty interesting, and the novel definitely sets him up as sympathetic. It's pretty understandable why the Light is affecting him so strongly in his bad state and why he's trying to put all his faith into it regardless of Weird Shit happening.

[Viridiel]

See this is an angle you could take, but it doesn't mesh with what we see in the new novel at all where he hasn't lost any humanity and isn't a machine of war and is instead is the one healing civilians and going out of his way to help captured scouts instead of focusing on killing demons.

He's effectively a holy paladin for atleast the first half of the novel.

My bad, I got a bit lost in the language. I just meant that Xe'ra's done something to him that makes it harder for him to calm down when he's lost in wrath, not that he's been completely transformed into a weapon of war with no shred of humanity left. He's still himself, but something triggers the Light inside him that makes him lose himself temporarily. It feels like it's meant to be a counterpart to Alleria's voidform where nobody can reach her until she powers down.

My point is that he ISN'T completely lost, unlike someone like Lothraxion who seems to fully embrace the Light's influence and agrees with everything it tells him and makes him feel.

[Vakir]

Like HR has a gun to their head at all times? They do. Notable POC members of WoW Twitter complained about a line in a Haranir lore book where they, Dark Trolls at the time, called the other tribes "lesser trolls" because they thought it wasn't good that Dark Trolls (who would go on to become HIGHBORNE) could ever be racist. That line was promptly deleted. That line was also the ONLY line in the entire beta that confirms Haranir used to be Dark Trolls, so the lore got fucked up because of some sensitive morons on social media.

Most of the neutered comfy stuff is 100% because nobody wants to lose their job because someone got upset. And, unfortunately, feeding yourself and having a house is more important than WoW being as good as it could be. This is the monkeys paw of WoW continuing to exist into 2025.

It's extremely frustrating because the perception of being lesser trolls is not the same thing as them actually being fucking "lesser." This is literally how the elves perceive some other types of elves - now, literally right this second - they just aren't scribbling it in books all the time.

It's Exhibit fucking Q of "This thing spoken of or believed in a fictional setting is not an endorsement." And it's a major thing well outside of WoW and fantasy in general.

[allegrian]

At this point wow's A plot is just a shitty excuse of a plot to allow new worldbulding, zones and races with sidequests that the quest devs really care about.

So it's basically a horrible main story used as an excuse for internal dev fanfic in the form of secondary quests

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Fuck I hate Twitter. It's just a cesspool of degenerates with clearly too much influence. Can't say this place is much better, but we have no influence.

Well the main quest and artist devs are on twitter, not here, and many of them follow some red shit guy satellites almost as personal followers, like internet buddies (with way less followers than actual wow streamers) which are the ones really influencing the game decisions.

At this point, the main forums and mmo champion forums are completely useless. We should all become red shit guy's friends to get retweeted by him and portergauge if we want to be at least heard by the devs.

[Vakir]

Well the main quest and artist devs are on twitter, not here, and many of them follow some red shit guy satellites almost as personal followers, like internet buddies (with way less followers than actual wow streamers) which are the ones really influencing the game decisions.

At this point, the main forums and mmo champion forums are completely useless. We should all become red shit guy's friends to get retweeted by him and portergauge if we want to be at least heard by the devs.

This philosophy is just as much of a problem and still leads to writing by committee and the tail wagging the dog in an equally shitty way.

There needs to be a sense of leadership and a clear direction. Sadly, that is outside of our hands and falls to creatives.

[Joshuaj]

Exactly. This idea that he's being turned into a villain bit-by-bit just isn't really true. It happens all at once, and we've already begun the process of that being wound back to rehabilitate his character. Arator's role is just to make him realise that there's another way to use the Light that he's become blind to over thousands of years of leading an army. His lesson is that the way the Army of the Light operates isn't at all consistent with how heroes of the Light behave, and he needs to regain the humanity that he lost when Xe'ra turned him into a machine of war.

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I think there's just several layers to it. The idea obviously isn't that it's all because of what Xe'ra did considering Arator's story goes into the fact that he's always been capable of being overwhelmed by wrath verging on lightblindedness, but the novel's depiction of his lightforging combined with the Voidstorm comment definitely implies that whatever Xe'ra did to him is making it harder for him to embrace the core virtues of the Silver Hand (other than maybe Retribution). In fact, it's actually implied in the Voidstorm that it's impossible to completely undo whatever Xe'ra did to him, but removing her influence would at least stop him from getting worse and let him work on his emotional control.

EDIT: Not really related, but thinking about the fact that Xe'ra's actions seem to be at least consistent with Retribution makes me think that maybe she was one of the five naaru who appeared to Mereldar, representing Retribution.

Yeah, idk if he'll end up being a villain, but I wouldn't be shocked if he ends up like Alleria but with the Light.

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Idk if the stuff with Alleria will make him ease back on the Light, or amplify his conviction even more...

[Cheezits]

This philosophy is just as much of a problem and still leads to writing by committee and the tail wagging the dog in an equally shitty way.

There needs to be a sense of leadership and a clear direction. Sadly, that is outside of our hands and falls to creatives.

Writing to appeal to Portergauge and baalthewarlock aligns with "Market Interests" so it's not like it's solely because it's a personal favor. As I mentioned before, they got rid of the Lesser Troll thing because they saw it could lead to racism allegations- not because they owed baal money.

[Vakir]

Writing to appeal to Portergauge and baalthewarlock aligns with "Market Interests" so it's not like it's solely because it's a personal favor. As I mentioned before, they got rid of the Lesser Troll thing because they saw it could lead to racism allegations- not because they owed baal money.

No, I understand that's the motivation. But generally, unless it's more broad feedback - and I mean broad - it gets extremely obnoxious extremely fast when it becomes a pileup of higher profile and external individuals dictating things.

Gameplay systems is another thing entirely with regards to influencers talking about the direction, even if sometimes that swings the wrong way. Storytelling is a different beast.

[Cheezits]

No, I understand that's the motivation. But generally, unless it's more broad feedback - and I mean broad - it gets extremely obnoxious extremely fast when it becomes a pileup of higher profile and external individuals dictating things.

Gameplay systems is another thing entirely with regards to influencers talking about the direction, even if sometimes that swings the wrong way. Storytelling is a different beast.

Unfortunately, besides the overt Dark Troll link which I think is awful to get rid of, their influences usually are used for good. It's not like they are changing hotblooded manly storylines, usually just shitty ones with lore errors. It's borderline nepotism from six or seven twitter people but I'd say 90% of their changes are good.

Ironinically, for all the hotblooded macho guys on here who want WoW to be more like that there are more or less none of them on social media trying to get devs to change things by pointing out lore issues, suggesting better ideas, etc. They more or less hang out on sites like this one and the wow forums that have no influence whatsoever.

And if they are on X they just call devs stupid and shitty etc which gets nothing done.

[Vakir]

And if they are on X they just call devs stupid and shitty etc which gets nothing done.

That isn't shocking. People devoid of culture or literacy can't do much other than destroy. They don't know why they want the stories they want, even if they did get them.

"I'm going to list Arthas, Illidan, Garrosh, Grom, and even Thrall as examples of masculinity without understanding the deliberately preachy and negative arcs of 4/5 of them in their original stories and with the latter's disposition right at home with current performative non-toxic perhaps overly saccharine Blizzard."

A lot of this feels endemic of social media rather than just Blizzard, sadly, with regards to sub-fandom voices influence. Whatever happened with the whole council and ambassador program?

[allegrian]

Writing to appeal to Portergauge and baalthewarlock aligns with "Market Interests" so it's not like it's solely because it's a personal favor. As I mentioned before, they got rid of the Lesser Troll thing because they saw it could lead to racism allegations- not because they owed baal money.

Why can't a fantasy race from a race-war heavy franchise be a bit racist?

[Vakir]

Why can't a fantasy race from a race-war heavy franchise be a bit racist?

What gets me is that we already have it untouched in content!

e.g. Some of the graffiti in the Insurrection questline between the Night and Blood Elves is extremely petty and mean, I gotta wonder what it would look like today if there was any at all.

[Sondrelk]

What gets me is that we already have it untouched in content!

e.g. Some of the graffiti in the Insurrection questline between the Night and Blood Elves is extremely petty and mean, I gotta wonder what it would look like today if there was any at all.

Isn't that graffiti also made by spies trying to intentionally make the opposing camp angry?

[Vakir]

Isn't that graffiti also made by spies trying to intentionally make the opposing camp angry?

I recently did it and can't recall. I know there's spies, but I don't remember if everything was boiled down to being their work vs. them having other influences in destabilizing the resistance.

If so, that's a very modern Blizzard cop-out. But racism is still racism, and it makes sense in the context of the story even without that reveal. It adds a lot more to the tension than if the quest was removed and then we just killed spies anyway.

Maybe Reforged doing jack-all besides ADRing "HELLSCREAM" to every line was a blessing in disguise. I always enjoyed Garithos making slights about elven ear size.

[Cheezits]

Why can't a fantasy race from a race-war heavy franchise be a bit racist?

Because the company doesn't want to be called out as encouraging racism. And the company is catering to people that get upset at the slightest inclination of racism, who may or may not have been proven to spend more money on the game, therefore being more valuable to retain (I would guess this is the case considering how much effort is spent).

[Eldryth]

I think whatever's going on with Turalyon (not his shitty raid boss goons- War Chaplain Senn is cool though) is actually surprisingly pretty interesting, and the novel definitely sets him up as sympathetic. It's pretty understandable why the Light is affecting him so strongly in his bad state and why he's trying to put all his faith into it regardless of Weird Shit happening.

It is, now that we have some crucial context from the novel. They really should have shown at least some key points of this in-game, because without it it looks like he's just suddenly acting out-of-character. This would have been a far better 11.2.7 questline than us visiting Sylvanas.

My point is that he ISN'T completely lost, unlike someone like Lothraxion who seems to fully embrace the Light's influence and agrees with everything it tells him and makes him feel.

Even in the beta, Turalyon's storyline was pretty bluntly set up as a redemption arc- it would have been obvious even if we didn't have Arator's "Redeemer" title giving it all away. The novel spoilers just make it even more clear, and gives them the characterization and development necessary for it to make sense.

It's definitely fair to argue on whether this is the right direction to take his character, especially when you need to buy a separate novel to even know why he suddenly needs redemption in the first place, but the story doesn't seem to be setting him up as a true villain at all so far- it's all about bringing him back to his old self, with even he himself recognizing and regretting his mistakes (just wrongly thinking they can't be redeemed). So a large portions of the complaints I've seen are for something that isn't even there so far.

At this point, I expect that, unless Alleria actually dies in Voidspire (which seems unlikely), Midnight is going to end with Turalyon, Alleria, and Arator coming together, choosing each other over the Light/Void, and defeating Xal'atath together, with big "stronger united" and "independence from cosmic forces" themes. (which could turn pretty cheesy too if done poorly). Their flaws and strife seem like something they're set up to overcome rather than something that'll lead them to corruption.



On a somewhat related note... Who exactly is the Eredar leading the Legion forces in the book? And are they still around? I don't have the book, but the spoilers I've seen make it sound like he escapes unscathed- maybe he'll be important in a future patch (maybe he's the reason for the green, Fel-looking rivers in the 12.1 zone)?

[Vakir]

Because the company doesn't want to be called out as encouraging racism. And the company is catering to people that get upset at the slightest inclination of racism, who may or may not have been proven to spend more money on the game, therefore being more valuable to retain (I would guess this is the case considering how much effort is spent).

A lot of modern audiences for whatever reason see any negative characteristics or social failings as reflective of something encouraged by the creators, even if any fiction, not just fantasy, needs characters and groups and entire societies that have flaws or even complicated belief systems.

This extends even to shows for children where friendship and hugs are the solution. No, the fascism of the Diamond Authority is not an endorsement of fascism, but try telling that to some very angry teenagers to 20-somethings a while ago.

[Ersula]

Why can't a fantasy race from a race-war heavy franchise be a bit racist?

That's what the Red Dawn are. If what you're asking is "Why can't I play a racist?" that question is going to turn a few heads.

[Vakir]

That's what the Red Dawn are. If what you're asking is "Why can't I play a racist?" that question is going to turn a few heads.

I mean, there are already existing races that are prone to being driven as a society around having internalized bigoted beliefs because that's what the setting calls for.

Again, whether it's spies or Night Elves that drop a mana drink with a message "Wouldn't want you to get the shakes" by the Blood Elf camp, it is believable that actual Night Elves would do it. Ditto Blood Elves demeaning Night Elves as being of "lower" caste by being more adjacent to trolls pre-extensive Well mutation. The term Highborne was used for a reason.

The Red Dawn are defined around being racist, which I think is a big difference. Even then, for example, people are allowed to play dick characters with dick beliefs in a campaign if everyone at the table's cool about it and they aren't deliberately ruining the experience for other people.