Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Would be a lot of upfront work, yeah. Definitely one of those small things that could topple the entire thing. Even if the most amount of work would come from needing to make the Worgen, Human, and Kul Tiran heritage sets work across all three.

This is the problem with a 20+ year old game. They could in theory redo the system so armor rigs in a more flexible manner and it is easier to add more. But you have to retrofit everything that already exists which is absolutely prohibitive.

[Vakir]

But what is the negative to having these options? A cluttered character creation screen really isn't a big deal. It doesn't harm the game in any way.

What they could do is separate the races by race > subrace, so you select 'dwarf' and then get an option for standard dwarves, dark iron, earthen etc.

Nothing technically, although new players may not be interested in X race but may like X+a race that's hidden behind a click or two.

If I didn't know any better and was a total Warcraft newbie, I'd absolutely look at the base Dwarf icon, think nothing, go into game, see a Dark Iron, and be like "Why the fuck did nobody tell me upfront that there's molten blooded dark dwarves with mohawks and piercings and glowing eyes? ...WAIT, THEY'RE PLAYABLE?"

It's one of those situations where there is a downside or opportunity cost no matter what you do.

It seems to me that the biggest issue is matching existing armor to the model. Not the limited level design or game design elements.

Yeah, that was always the case, I don't think I ever said otherwise. It means the older the game gets, the more exponentially huge in demand of labor there is. One new race means 21 years of equipment. And just one expansion means new equipment fit for X number of existing races.

Someone is inevitably gonna say "no excuses! Billion dollars! Throw money, bigger team!" and I agree, but the project has managers that have budgets dictated around and completely beholden to investor and shareholder expectations and now you need to justify all of that to them.

Pokemon is the biggest media franchise on the planet and it doesn't change that the leaked budgets for their two newest/still upcoming projects are kind of a joke.

[Rosstafa]

And lose the unique voice overs and racials? Absolutely not.

I mean I agree, I don't see an issue with having all these allied races, but Mag'har could have easily been implemented just as customisation options for standard orcs. I'm glad they went the allied race route with it though, so we got cool quests, heritage gear and a mount out of it.

It seems to me that the biggest issue is matching existing armor to the model. Not the limited level design or game design elements.

You'd essentially be scrapping the work you've already done to add these things back into existing races, which would be just as much work as making a new race anyway.

Nothing technically, although new players may not be interested in X race but may like X+a race that's hidden behind a click or two.

If I didn't know any better and was a total Warcraft newbie, I'd absolutely look at the base Dwarf icon, think nothing, go into game, see a Dark Iron, and be like "Why the fuck did nobody tell me upfront that there's molten blooded dark dwarves with mohawks and piercings and glowing eyes? ...WAIT, THEY'RE PLAYABLE?"

It's one of those situations where there is a downside or opportunity cost no matter what you do.

Depends on how they present it in the UI. You could have some examples of the existing races show up when you click a major race option, giving you an idea of what they include. It would just change the flow of character customisation a bit.

[Vakir]

Depends on how they present it in the UI. You could have some examples of the existing races show up when you click a major race option, giving you an idea of what they include. It would just change the flow of character customisation a bit.

I mean, that's identical to your other suggestion. The issue is that click. Since some purely at a glance sub-races have a way different "vibe" than the base one. Zandalari are particularly ones that come to mind, not counting the inevitable Void/Nightborne/Vulpera that must be separate anyway.

[Dracullus]

And lose the unique voice overs and racials? Absolutely not.

It could be done like Zandalari racial. You pick your identity with long cooldown.

Yes, I am asking for change from allied races system to subraces. This would expand potential of existing races. Some are already almost here - Wildhammer Dwarves or High Elf would just need racial (could be just cosmetic version of existing racial) to work.

Literally only advantage of current system is AR starting on lvl 10. And for Blizzard $ from people swaping between Orcs and Mag'nar Orcs for some reason.

[Gurahk]

It could be done like Zandalari racial. You pick your identity with long cooldown.

Yes, I am asking for change from allied races system to subraces. This would expand potential of existing races. Some are already almost here - Wildhammer Dwarves or High Elf would just need racial (could be just cosmetic version of existing racial) to work.

Literally only advantage of current system is AR starting on lvl 10. And for Blizzard $ from people swaping between Orcs and Mag'nar Orcs for some reason.

Why put effort into this when all you're doing is just breaking apart systems and making it more complicated for little gain? Just leave the current allied races as is, make the allied races share some more hairstyles and that's it.

[Lahis]

For TLT I would rather skip getting an Allied Race if it ends up just being Taunka which is looking very likely. I would much rather dev time go into overhauling the current playable races with updated models, much more cosmetic options and perhaps even an overhaul of the entire character creation - surnames, character background such as “noble, commoner, military” similar to say Dragon Age and rolling the allied races into core races.

Change Vulpera into a core race, and roll all of the others into the core races as customisation. This may be difficult for Haranir though.

- - - Updated - - -



Thank you. As a seasonal player hopefully the costs aren’t too much.

Only reasonable 800k for all the slots and ~6k to change tmog.

[Nymrohd]

Only reasonable 800k for all the slots and ~6k to change tmog.

You need 20 slots?

[Rosstafa]

I mean, that's identical to your other suggestion. The issue is that click. Since some purely at a glance sub-races have a way different "vibe" than the base one. Zandalari are particularly ones that come to mind, not counting the inevitable Void/Nightborne/Vulpera that must be separate anyway.

You click on a race to see what it looks like now anyway. All they would have to do is show an extra character on the screen when you do it. It wouldn't really change much.

It could be done like Zandalari racial. You pick your identity with long cooldown.

Yes, I am asking for change from allied races system to subraces. This would expand potential of existing races. Some are already almost here - Wildhammer Dwarves or High Elf would just need racial (could be just cosmetic version of existing racial) to work.

Literally only advantage of current system is AR starting on lvl 10. And for Blizzard $ from people swaping between Orcs and Mag'nar Orcs for some reason.

Allied races are subraces though. That's what it is supposed to be. They're a way for Blizz to expand player options and create distinct subraces where expanding options on existing races isn't enough. Wildhammer don't need their own race, and I'd argue High Elves don't really either though I know people want them a lot. The main support for them is Blood Elves being Horde, but just giving the Alliance blue-eyed Blood Elves wouldn't be enough. You'd have to really set them apart. Maybe use the Nightborne model as a basis so they hold themselves a bit differently at least.

[Jerhomie]

This is the problem with a 20+ year old game. They could in theory redo the system so armor rigs in a more flexible manner and it is easier to add more. But you have to retrofit everything that already exists which is absolutely prohibitive.

I know it’s a dreaded suggestion but I remember many moons ago, when asked about using AI in WoW development one of the developers said they weren’t going to use any generative AI (at least at the time) but could potentially use it for fitting armor to models and maybe uprezzing textures, if memory serves. I don’t know how y’all feel about this but I would be okay with them using AI to make older armor fit if it means getting more playable models with unique shapes. I mean, even now we still have clipping issues so it couldn’t be any worse, right?

[Dracullus]

You need 20 slots?

Yeah, later slots as gold sink are fine. High cost of swaping transmog in a slot is not.

[Rosstafa]

I know it’s a dreaded suggestion but I remember many moons ago, when asked about using AI in WoW development one of the developers said they weren’t going to use any generative AI (at least at the time) but could potentially use it for fitting armor to models and maybe uprezzing textures, if memory serves. I don’t know how y’all feel about this but I would be okay with them using AI to make older armor fit if it means getting more playable models with unique shapes. I mean, even now we still have clipping issues so it couldn’t be any worse, right?

I feel like I heard somewhere that they were actually doing this.

[Vakir]

You click on a race to see what it looks like now anyway. All they would have to do is show an extra character on the screen when you do it. It wouldn't really change much.

That's the thing. I don't need to click on a dwarf to know I don't care at that time about a standard dwarf, so a heavy metal guitar solo version of them may be intriguing but is now hidden behind a race I may not click.

Think of how UIs are designed in terms of user friendliness and at a glance information conveyance rather than clicking every option. It's bloated now but I won't miss out on any options other than Belf/Nelf undead colorings.

The "I" here being a hypothetical person with zero WoW exposure.

A lot of people are innately going to skip over other interesting selections they otherwise wouldn't be aware of. Some sub-races are barely their base one. And since they're adding seemingly more based off more and more existing skeletons, it's only gonna get worse.

Like the Haranir. Technically a Night Elf skeleton. Do they go under the Night Elves? Or are they considered a base one?

I believe they already used upscaling to mess with the resolution on Reforged cinematics? I may be wrong.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah, later slots as gold sink are fine. High cost of swaping transmog in a slot is not.

I hope they will rethink the current costs as well since it is crazy; I've seen numbers as high as 6900 for every slot.

[huth]

Completely new races sure, but the whole reason allies races exist is so that they could give us more options with less resources needed to develop them. We got 10 bloody allied races in BFA...they can manage one or two every expansion.

You're misunderstanding the issue. It's not the effort of creating one. It's the long-term maintenance. Every extra race that isn't a full model reuse like Lightforged adds extra work to be done every patch.

[SunspotAnims]

Yeah, later slots as gold sink are fine. High cost of swaping transmog in a slot is not.

Let's be clear, the 6k price is to apply a full set of appearances to an outfit. Once it's applied, it costs nothing to switch between outfits and you never need to re-mog every time you equip new gear. You're most likely going to be saving gold compared to the old system.

I was more iffy on the price to unlock all outfits slots until they confirmed it'll be account wide. I don't expect many people to need 20 slots but at least it's a one-time gold cost for the whole account.

[GeometryWizard]

The new transmog system only really benefits people who have 1-2 outfits they never change because the only decrease in costs comes from mog being applied to your item slot rather than the item itself. However the costs are still based on the item itself and are 4-5x higher at level 90 than they are at level 80 so anyone that likes changing pieces of their mog or making lots of outfits are being punished which goes against what the initial messaging of the system was. People say we need more gold sinks but that's usually referred to premium mounts not basic functionality like mogging

This is also coming out alongside housing which is another big gold and resource sink and I think they have it totally wrong here. They clearly think that making these huge grinds will keep players invested and engaged with the system but the whole appeal of housing is that the fun comes from what your imagination can build and placing harsh limits on that will only turn players off. The people excited about a big in-game economy forming from housing are the ones that are already super loyal to the game, it's the casuals that will want to make a dream room or need a certain item and see they need to grind gold or currency for dozens of hours to get it and just be bummed out and turned off from the process. Some pretty simple items like an alchemy table from vanilla costs like 11k gold of mats right now and that's before the prices inevitably rise, nobody gets excited about grinding this except people that are already extremely unlikely to unsub

At least you can argue greed trying to drive people to buy tokens fuels those two decisions but the stupidest one has to be the exorbitant tender costs of trading post mounts and other items. There's only 1-2 ways to buy tender with real money and they're one time only and there's no way to grind tender in-game past the limit so there's no argument that it helps extend subs. So all making overly expensive trading post items does is piss players off, there's literally no financial benefit to Blizzard like they reflexively make decisions unfriendly to players without even thinking otherwise, even if it makes no business sense to do so

[Rosstafa]

You're misunderstanding the issue. It's not the effort of creating one. It's the long-term maintenance. Every extra race that isn't a full model reuse like Lightforged adds extra work to be done every patch.

I get it - I'm saying I understand that being a problem for entirely new races, but allied races are mostly just reskins.

[Vakir]

You're misunderstanding the issue. It's not the effort of creating one. It's the long-term maintenance. Every extra race that isn't a full model reuse like Lightforged adds extra work to be done every patch.

He said Allied Races, no? I presume that means reuse but maybe that's not a universally agreed thing. Only exceptions were Kul Tirans IIRC.

...just wanna throw out that THEY'D BE REALLY GOOD MODELS FOR ALLIED RACE OGRES, BLIZZARD.

[Reive]

they really need to rework how armor works in the game. not only it will be easier to add new races/customization options, but we will also get rid of the crappy painted on armor. it's a lot of work but they don't have to do it all in 1 go.