Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

If Amani is an AR (looking more and more likely with each day IMO) it is not a minor patch thing I guarantee you that, especially when there's a troll raid and troll island.

Sigh, I just.. This structure and the pivot patches within only 2 major patches and then the Minor Patches are so disconnected and completely floppy because no one in the decisionmaking tree can recognize the minor patches need better structuring towards the A Plot.

(Fantasy delusion talking) Again, I feel like it would be fine to have a pivot after base if we had 3 major patches. Hell, I'd move the Pivot to the 2nd Major Patch rather than the first because this whole Base Conclusion -> Pivot is just not a good way to run a MMORPG where interest needs to be kept to what is happening next but then again considering the leverage of Lore/Narrative fans is 0 and Gameplay is 100 its' like I guess yeah this is how it has to be. (Fantasy delusion talking)

Don't get me wrong I love Troll Raids so much from a Gameplay standpoint, I'm a big fan and especially since I loved the Zul'aman gear and weapon design so I can't wait to see what they do with what drops from it. If it happens.

[Darkarath]

I’m going to have to disagree. They’re two of the worst continents ever added to the game. Bland zones that aren’t memorable at all.

Saying Khaz Algar and the Dragon Isles are the two best continents ever added to the game but then saying Kul Tiras isn’t anything special is certainly a take.

As you said, it’s all subjective but that’s not one I can personally get my head around, but hey, power to you.

What makes Khaz Algar and Dragon Isles seem more detailed than Kul Tiras to you? Any examples?

Again, kind of pointless to discuss because these things are very subjective.

I nevertheless think that it's easy enough to see that every expansion gets more detailed. It doesn't matter if you're talking about the zones, sets, assets for each faction, towns... what have you.

Some examples that might help:

- Hallowfall. The first time that you enter that zone is memorable, at least for me. It's one of those WoW moments that I will always remember. The zone is gigantic, with different levels, an ocean, a variety of biomes, a faction like the Arathi with plenty of assets... Mereldar for example is miles away of any settlement ever introduced into the game (not taking into account main cities and Suramar, which was an endgame experience by itself). Mereldar is just a town with some quests and yet is super detailed and enormous.

- The interior of any building is something that IMO keeps getting better and better with each expansion. Just go to the City of Threads or Mereldar. It's better than anything that came before and I'm guessing that worse than Midnight. I only have played a little bit with Devourer DH in beta so I will judge this particular topic when Midnight is live.

- I understand that you enjoy the BfA zones (and I do too) but I don't think that they're amazing. I think that overall the new zones are bigger and more varied. Boralus and Dazar'alor are cool, but I don't see much else in Zandalar or Kul'tiras that really caught my attention. In DF Valdrakken is something truly different. You also have the Black Dragonflight Fortress, the Azure Archives and Vathros. All these places stand out IMO. The entirety of the Dragon Isles for me are amazing. They feel very alive.

- Again just look at the transition zones of Khaz Algar. They are fucking huge. There is a lot there that it's absolutely meaningless, because probably most would just fly over there without paying attention, yet Blizzard took the time to make, at least IMO, something really cool. I know that K'aresh is controversial, but for me Blizzard nailed it as a zone. It truly feels like a desert. Vol'dun or Tanaris do not make me feel anything at all.

I could go on but inevitably my own tastes get in the way when arguing about such things.

[Joshuaj]

Is this the cradle? Or is the entire Harandar skybox the cradle?

Cause if it's just the spiral thing, then...uhm...I got some things to say

- - - Updated - - -

Though, people won't like the things I might say about it, ahaha

[Cheezits]

Funnily enough the outcome of the Reunification situation is what I wanted since I didn't want this long drawn out "Lets be friends all elves " storyline. So even if it is cringe to just dip something into a well to symbolize unity its' at least a better outcome than long drawn out continuation of the "Everyone needs to be friends and in councils".

That is why I am fine with it. As long as the Nelves fuck off with a "you owe us" after and don't stick around, it's better to get it out of the way. Hopefully High Elves get some more focus around their camp and the nearby wilderness, but launch gives us plenty of exposure to the Belves and Velves.

Also, they were going to reunite anyway per Metzen's words so I really don't get why people are upset about them doing something more than "Liadrin/all the Elves asks the Light/Elune to cleanse the well and it does ". Giving them all macguffins with lore implications at least shows there is some kind of questline involved with cleaning the thing instead of a Deus Ex Machina handwave.

My biggest issue: where the fuck are the Darkfallen? If you need a void crystal to cleanse the well they can definitely do some kind of death thing.

[Nymrohd]

People want smaller zones with more POIs and more quest hubs. That is what they mean. Areas are now bigger with more empty space and fewer POIs and quest hubs.

I see the appeal but I prefer the bigger ones, though I agree more quest hubs are needed. Smaller zones run into problems like "ever-corrupted and ever-warring" which I don't like and feel a lot less organic/lived in. But if you go to big, you get too much empty space.

I think Hallowfall is the best example so far of a good, big zone.

Personally what I want is the larger zones but with more PoIs. And I know this will be controversial but I wish part of the zones was just meant for patch content. I understand they don't have time to produce more quests (and the number of total quests is adequate). I think zones reserving certain areas for later can still work even with constant flying.

[Vakir]

Eversong Woods looks like it has artificial turf everywhere but I don't know if that's intentional, like Summerset Isles where everything apparently looks and feels artificial because the High Elves sculpted it with magic.

Column A and Column B. It's supposed to be impossibly beautiful and eternally autumn so it's not artificial in that sense but probably is supposed to feel like the land equivalent of the uncanny valley.

Re: comparing zones - I do think skyriding played a role in relative detail but I also think the Dragon Isles were almost impressively bad compared to Khaz Algar and nu-QuelHaraStorm. But not so different in level of detail that some of it isn't a bit performative. Visuals are the lowest on the list of things to fix in Midnight.

[COBRAstriker]

Sigh, I just.. This structure and the pivot patches within only 2 major patches and then the Minor Patches are so disconnected and completely floppy because no one in the decisionmaking tree can recognize the minor patches need better structuring towards the A Plot.

(Fantasy delusion talking) Again, I feel like it would be fine to have a pivot after base if we had 3 major patches. Hell, I'd move the Pivot to the 2nd Major Patch rather than the first because this whole Base Conclusion -> Pivot is just not a good way to run a MMORPG where interest needs to be kept to what is happening next but then again considering the leverage of Lore/Narrative fans is 0 and Gameplay is 100 its' like I guess yeah this is how it has to be. (Fantasy delusion talking)

Don't get me wrong I love Troll Raids so much from a Gameplay standpoint, I'm a big fan and especially since I loved the Zul'aman gear and weapon design so I can't wait to see what they do with what drops from it. If it happens.

I'll never understand why they don't use the minor x.5 and x.7 patches to progress the main story in a more natural way. They drop a big bad or superficial conflict in a .1 or .2 patch which immediately gets resolved by the power of friendship and coming together (tm) and that's that. Nothing feels satisfying or epic or exciting. There's no big payoff. Just look at TWW

11.0.5 anniversary event
11.0.7 Siren isle
11.1.5 Rehashed BfA content
11.1.7 Some bullshit in Arathi Highlands
11.2.5 Legion remix and 11.2.7 is already going into the next expansion. It's a complete clusterfuck

[Cheezits]

I'll never understand why they don't use the minor x.5 and x.7 patches to progress the main story in a more natural way. They drop a big bad or superficial conflict in a .1 or .2 patch which immediately gets resolved by the power of friendship and coming together (tm) and that's that. Nothing feels satisfying or epic or exciting. There's no big payoff. Just look at TWW

11.0.5 anniversary event
11.0.7 Siren isle
11.1.5 Rehashed BfA content
11.1.7 Some bullshit in Arathi Highlands
11.2.5 Legion remix and 11.2.7 is already going into the next expansion. It's a complete clusterfuck

Because people play regardless of story content, and the two times the game even came close to dying (WoD, SL) was because of content droughts, not story quality. Also, the story quality doesn't always link up with how well the game is doing- Mists, for all its praise, had a big sub drop because of people not enjoying "Kung Fu Panda".

[Elronas16]

Just a few small examples of Eversong Woods being VERY detailed in its areas. I haven't included the bigger regions, the other zones, or places like the Lightbloom infested areas, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

All of these are my own screenshots btw

Anyone wanna argue some more stuff regarding zones and their "lack of detail"? I can go at this all day!

It's funny that you keep posting about Quel Thalas when this is the worst offender of new world level design. Cramped an entire kingdom into one single zone, 1/3 of which is the city anyway. Compare it to similar locations in Kul Tiras, a kingdom that's supposed to be smaller and less significant than the mighty Quel Thalas.

Sunsail Anchorage vs Anglepoint Wharf




Which one looks more like a port bustling with activity to you?

Fairbreeze Village vs Freehold




Which one looks more like an actual lived in settlment with a community to you?

Birghtwing Estate vs Northwing Estate




Which one looks like a more elaborate estate to you?

Mind you, the Kul Tiras screenshots don't even capture the entirety of those places. And this was only one of Kul Tiras' regions, I could do the same for the other 2 as well.

All this without even getting into the botched artstyle and the disproportionately wide designs made for dragonriding.

They didn't just miss the mark with Midnight, they fired in a totally different direction. It's only rivaled by TWW in how bad it is.

[Nymrohd]

Column A and Column B. It's supposed to be impossibly beautiful and eternally autumn so it's not artificial in that sense but probably is supposed to feel like the land equivalent of the uncanny valley.

Re: comparing zones - I do think skyriding played a role in relative detail but I also think the Dragon Isles were almost impressively bad compared to Khaz Algar and nu-QuelHaraStorm. But not so different in level of detail that some of it isn't a bit performative. Visuals are the lowest on the list of things to fix in Midnight.

I think Dragon Isles at least has several very strong PoIs in each zone. Ruby Life Pools, Obsidian Citadel, Maruukai, Teerakai, Azure Archives, Vakthros, Temporal Conflux, Tyrhold were all very strong (more impressive than most things in e.g. BfA or Legion though behind WoD and MoP imo). Thing is, the other half is weak. Every djaradin place looks like crap imo, Dragonscale Basecamp was just so tiny, most of the Centaur places were similarly weak without a bigger setpiece to prop them up, the Kirin Tor camps in Azure Span were just poor and Valdrakken was . . . fine; it didn't seem to know if it was a place for dragons or for dragonkin.
Imo the only weak PoI in Tiragarde was Bridgeport (and even that had a unique element). Drustvar has no weak PoIs. As for Stormsong, it had the Deadwash which was trash (but it was also painfully obvious that the zone was redesigned late in development given how every other zone was 50-60% explored in their MSQs and Stormsong barely showed you 30% of the zone).

TWW though? mama, this is not good level design. Isle of Dorn has one good PoI imo in Dhar Oztan and it is barely used (seriously, why are there no world quests or rares up in Dhar Oztan???) Ringing Deeps has the Waterworks I suppose? The kobold areas are cute but not in any way grand, Taelloch is weird (what are the Earthen even doing in the Ringing Deeps? are they not supposed to be focused on the Coreway?) and the Earthen works is an uprez'd version of the underground parts of Searing Gorge . . .) Hallowfall is cool but I think makes poor use of its main feature (most of your time in Hallowfall was spent in areaa that Beledar was not really prominent. Great architecture though, some of the best interiors in WoW for smaller buildings). And Azj'kahet is weird; it looks like an old zone with how crowded it is with PoIs. it has interesting level design but the flow of its quests don't really push you to explore it. Undermine is superb, K'aresh is trash.

[Cheezits]

They didn't just miss the mark with Midnight, they fired in a totally different direction. It's only rivaled by TWW in how bad it is.

Come back when there are NPCs in both pictures if the argument is about which one is more "lived in" LOL

[Santandame]

On the topic of voting with your wallets as @Cheezits suggested. This really is the first expansion where we’ve gotten this close to a launch and I’ve not already pre-ordered. If it wasn’t for Housing, at this point I wouldn’t be buying. Housing is the only thing pulling me at the moment but I’m seeing a lot of controversy surrounding the currency.

TLT as far as I’m concerned will really need to bring it for me, as Housing won’t be as new and shiny then.

I do genuinely believe we’d get a large drop off in player base if it wasn’t for Housing.

- - - Updated - - -

"Less detailed than previous expansions" btw...

It absolutely is less detailed than Kul Tiras and posting a random landscape of very little to see isn’t helping your argument.

Edit - I just zoomed in and realised it wasn’t the Dragon Isles so I can’t really speak for Midnight. But at a first glance without zooming in and mistaking it for the Dragon Isles isn’t exactly a good sign, is it?

[Cheezits]

I do genuinely believe we’d get a large drop off in player base if it wasn’t for Housing.

We would've seen that in TWW imo as it had little to nothing new (despite my loving delves and thinking warbands are great), on an OC island with very little attachment to anything established in Warcraft, with a story about everyone getting along that is carebear and not very badass.

[Elronas16]

Visuals are the lowest on the list of things to fix in Midnight.

I disagree.

Story has been shit for so long and gameplay is always changed and experimented on that good art was the standing pillar keeping it all together. Now that has slowly collapsed as well over the past couple expansions.

And because of that, Midnight is the first expansion in 10 years since I started playing that I won't be buying. I'll rather go play classic TBC than have my Blood elf hunter that I've mained for all these years play through this bastardized version of Quel Thalas.

[Joshuaj]

I mean, only one of your examples actually looks impressive, and that's the port area with a massive sea gate and some ships.

The others are funny examples: One is a pirate-controlled area with ugly buildings and ship wreckage all around, and the other is an area with a stable, roads, and a horse contest arena.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want me to take closer looks into these places, I can definitely do that.

[Santandame]

I think Hallowfall is the best example so far of a good, big zone.

See, I completely disagree. Using modern comes, The Ringing Deeps is a much better example of a larger, detailed modern zone, in my opinion.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Hallowfall is painfully average carried by the Beledar.

- - - Updated - - -

We would've seen that in TWW imo as it had little to nothing new (despite my loving delves and thinking warbands are great), on an OC island with very little attachment to anything established in Warcraft, with a story about everyone getting along that is carebear and not very badass.

You have to take into account class pruning and addon changes in Midnight that weren’t present for TWW.

[Elronas16]

I do genuinely believe we’d get a large drop off in player base if it wasn’t for Housing.

This is what frustrates me a lot.

Housing is such a robust and well designed system that the expansion will be seen as a major success because of it even though everythign else mostly sucks, and they will ignore feedback on these other things because of that.

[Cheezits]

You have to take into account class pruning and addon changes in Midnight that weren’t present for TWW.

I really do not think these will impact the mass majority of players AKA LFR heroes that beat the raid and unsub, AKA the lifeblood of the game AKA dummy whales that buy the brutosaur and wow tokens.

Maybe this expansion will kill all high-level fan intrigue in the game (loreheads etc) but... I really doubt it. The people tired of Carebear Californiacraft will eventually leave, but considering this entire site has put up with so many bad expansions...

[Nymrohd]

See, I completely disagree. Using modern comes, The Ringing Deeps is a much better example of a larger, detailed modern zone, in my opinion.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Hallowfall is painfully average carried by the Beledar.

I think the best part of Hallowfall are the Arathi buildings and interiors. But the questing doesn't make adequate use of them. And by placing the Priory between the Beledar and most of the zone, it really blocks how much you see the Beledar while doing weekly events/world quests there; the Priory should have been further out to sea so that it did not block your view that bad.

[Joshuaj]

On the topic of voting with your wallets as @Cheezits suggested. This really is the first expansion where we’ve gotten this close to a launch and I’ve not already pre-ordered. If it wasn’t for Housing, at this point I wouldn’t be buying. Housing is the only thing pulling me at the moment but I’m seeing a lot of controversy surrounding the currency.

TLT as far as I’m concerned will really need to bring it for me, as Housing won’t be as new and shiny then.

I do genuinely believe we’d get a large drop off in player base if it wasn’t for Housing.

- - - Updated - - -



It absolutely is less detailed than Kul Tiras and posting a random landscape of very little to see isn’t helping your argument.

Edit - I just zoomed in and realised it wasn’t the Dragon Isles so I can’t really speak for Midnight. But at a first glance without zooming in and mistaking it for the Dragon Isles isn’t exactly a good sign, is it?

You mistaking it for the Dragon Isles is due to the atmosphere changes, which was done in DF to make Dragonriding across both Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms more visually appealing.