Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As much as I appreciate the want to fight Sargeras, Aman'thuls gotta be the endboss with what we know so far. (which isn't a great deal)

Having Aman’Thul be second to last seems reasonable.

Have him go on about order something something and how only Sargaras has the power to destroy the dis ordered Azeroth so he the to stop us from stoping Sargaras.

[Dracullus]

Whatever it is, last fight will probably end with Azeroth 'birth'. I could even see all Titans as council for last boss.

[Merryck]

Having Aman’Thul be second to last seems reasonable.

Have him go on about order something something and how only Sargaras has the power to destroy the dis ordered Azeroth so he the to stop us from stoping Sargaras.

Aman'thul should be the last boss, and an Ordered Sargeras should be the second last. Someone with true power over time is scarier than big destruction boy #92. The fight could have endless possibilities.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Aman'thul should be the last boss, and an Ordered Sargeras should be the second last. Someone with true power over time is scarier than big destruction boy #92. The fight could have endless possibilities.

I mean said some one got blown away by big destruction boy #92 along with the rest of the Titians, the power scale clearly isn't equal.

[Limayria]

I don't even understand why we'd be fighting ol sargey in TLT his big enemy was the void and we killed the last void lord, and he had that whole "azeorth winked at me" thing or whatever

[Merryck]

I mean said some one got blown away by big destruction boy #92 along with the rest of the Titians, the power scale clearly isn't equal.

It's unbelievable to think that wasn't part of his plan. He's the guy who gave the Bronze Dragonflight their power, he's (likely) strategized with the Primus who he showed "the infinite timeways," and apparently we're still on the one true timeline he devised and the Bronze Dragonflight maintain.

[allegrian]

Amanthul could be the last of the saga, setting sargeras free after his defeat so he can be a last boss in a future expansion

[Joshuaj]

I don't even understand why we'd be fighting ol sargey in TLT his big enemy was the void and we killed the last void lord, and he had that whole "azeorth winked at me" thing or whatever

I mean, Xal'atath still has Dimensius's power, and it's entirely possible the Void is gonna harm the Worldcore to a horrid degree. Sargeras seems to be pretty damn paranoid canonically, so why wouldn't he be a potential foe?

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Amanthul could be the last of the saga, setting sargeras free after his defeat so he can be a last boss in a future expansion

Idk. If you're gonna cap off a saga that's meant to end a story 20+ years in the making, why not include us battling the Dark Titan?

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Aman'thul should be the last boss, and an Ordered Sargeras should be the second last. Someone with true power over time is scarier than big destruction boy #92. The fight could have endless possibilities.

I don't want Sargeras to be reordered in TLT though. Part of the excitement for the whole "battling Sargeras" idea stems from the fact that we'd be facing his demonic self.

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Ya know, the same demonic form we're used to? The same one that's shown to lead the Burning Legion?

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It's unbelievable to think that wasn't part of his plan. He's the guy who gave the Bronze Dragonflight their power, he's (likely) strategized with the Primus who he showed "the infinite timeways," and apparently we're still on the one true timeline he devised and the Bronze Dragonflight maintain.

It is possible he didn't realize Sargeras would go so far. However, the Champions of Azeroth existing probably helped in maintaining the time flow.

The will of Order is unique like that lol.

[Merryck]

I don't want Sargeras to be reordered in TLT though. Part of the excitement for the whole "battling Sargeras" idea stems from the fact that we'd be facing his demonic self.

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Ya know, the same demonic form we're used to? The same one that's shown to lead the Burning Legion?

The reasons I keep suggesting Sargares will be Ordered are 1) We know the Titans will return to Ulduar, likely during the launch experience and 2) Their presence on the Seat of the Pantheon is likely the only thing keeping Sargeras contained, otherwise they would've returned by now. So, the only way they could leave the Seat without Sargeras breaking loose and destroying Azeroth is if he was completely subdued. The way they can subdue him is by Ordering him, which is what I believe they're doing at this very moment. By having him Ordered, it'd serve as a warning to the players about what could happen to Azeroth if we fail to stop the Titans, ala how K'aresh was for the Void. Wouldn't it be disturbing if the greatest terror in the cosmos returns as some placid guard dog? Plus, it'd setup a potential schism in the Titan pantheon. Maybe some of the Titans are disturbed by the state of their brother. And if you really want to fight his demonic form, maybe his final phase could be breaking free, reversing the Ordering and deciding to kill us all anyway.

[JDBlou]

Amanthul could be the last of the saga, setting sargeras free after his defeat so he can be a last boss in a future expansion

I've said it before:

I think they will attempt to have their cake and eat it too in that we'll fight Sargeras and also have him as our ally of convenience. I predict him to be the final raid boss of 13.1

Titans probably won't keep him flitting about the Seat of the Pantheon, that feels like a disaster waiting to happen. So maybe they take him to Mardum: the prison world that was created by Sargeras prior to his becoming the Fallen Titan to hold all the demons he killed.

Classic jailer goes to his own prison, converted to contain Sargeras by the titans. We'll fight numerous demon bosses recaptured/imprisoned there, titanic keepers etc culminating in the last two fights: Illidan and then Sargeras (think Dimensius epic scale).

Illidan, after being convinced by head trauma, reluctantly frees Sargeras. Sargeras refuses, because he's Sargeras therefore Sargeras also gets introduced to our familiar negotiating technique known as physical violence. Illidan becomes his warden in a parallel to Maiev. We take both of them and go on our merry way to go beat the snot out of some titans.

[Joshuaj]

The reasons I keep suggesting Sargares will be Ordered are 1) We know the Titans will return to Ulduar, likely during the launch experience and 2) Their presence on the Seat of the Pantheon is likely the only thing keeping Sargeras contained, otherwise they would've returned by now. So, the only way they could leave the Seat without Sargeras breaking loose and destroying Azeroth is if he was completely subdued. The way they can subdue him is by Ordering him, which is what I believe they're doing at this very moment. By having him Ordered, it'd serve as a warning to the players about what could happen to Azeroth if we fail to stop the Titans, ala how K'aresh was for the Void. Wouldn't it be disturbing if the greatest terror in the cosmos returns as some placid guard dog? Plus, it'd setup a potential schism in the Titan pantheon. Maybe some of the Titans are disturbed by the state of their brother. And if you really want to fight his demonic form, maybe his final phase could be breaking free, reversing the Ordering and deciding to kill us all anyway.

While I don't doubt the possibility, I think Blizzard knows very well fans would want to see Sargeras in his demon form in TLT.

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I've said it before:

I think they will attempt to have their cake and eat it too in that we'll fight Sargeras and also have him as our ally of convenience. I predict him to be the final raid boss of 13.1

Titans probably won't keep him flitting about the Seat of the Pantheon, that feels like a disaster waiting to happen. So maybe they take him to Mardum: the prison world that was created by Sargeras prior to his becoming the Fallen Titan to hold all the demons he killed.

Classic jailer goes to his own prison, converted to contain Sargeras by the titans. We'll fight numerous demon bosses recaptured/imprisoned there, titanic keepers etc culminating in the last two fights: Illidan and then Sargeras (think Dimensius epic scale).

Illidan after being convinced by head trauma reluctantly frees Sargeras. Sargeras also gets introduced to our familar negotiating technique known as physical violence. Illidan becomes his warden in a parallel to Maievn. We take both of them and go on our merry way to go beat the snot out of some titans.

I was thinking a Sargeras themed raid for 13.1, ngl.

Idk if the conspiracy plot will be max level campaign stuff or patch content, but I do think it'll all culminate in a battle with the Dark Titan.

[JDBlou]

I was thinking a Sargeras themed raid for 13.1, ngl.

Idk if the conspiracy plot will be max level campaign stuff or patch content, but I do think it'll all culminate in a battle with the Dark Titan.

I think the conspiracy will be the driving thrust of the expansion if we're honest. The Titans come back, we help them in whatever capacity that takes. At level cap we learn that the Titans are not on the level (probably a post 13.0-Iridikron-smiting raid cinematic revelation), and that pushes us to go get Illidan and free Sargeras.

[Merryck]

13.0 could be Iridikron. 13.1 could be Norgannon (I'd like to fight him in some cosmic steampunk workshop). 13.2 could be Sargeras and Aman'thul.

[Joshuaj]

13.0 could be Iridikron. 13.1 could be Norgannon (I'd like to fight him in some cosmic steampunk workshop). 13.2 could be Sargeras and Aman'thul.

My theory is this:

13.0: Chromatus, Helya, and maybe Xal'atath or normal Iridikron. This is assuming they do the same thing as Midnight and give us 3 raids.

13.1: Sargeras.

13.2: Iridikron infused with Azeroth's Worldsoul Power.

[Limayria]

13.0 could be Iridikron. 13.1 could be Norgannon (I'd like to fight him in some cosmic steampunk workshop). 13.2 could be Sargeras and Aman'thul.

Id really like a fight where sargeras and amanthul are duking it out and were trying to stop both of them

Would be cool if we fought across their planet sized bodies or something

[JDBlou]

13.0 could be Iridikron. 13.1 could be Norgannon (I'd like to fight him in some cosmic steampunk workshop). 13.2 could be Sargeras and Aman'thul.

Your pacing feels a little off to me. What has Norgannon done narratively to justify being a raid tier-ending boss? I gather that from your profile picture he's your favorite titan, if not your favourite Warcraft character but he's not exactly in the all-star Titan narrative game.

He's the lorekeeper who saved the Pantheon's souls - mechanically important to the lore, sure, but he doesn't have the narrative weight or villain setup to anchor an entire patch as a final boss. Compare him to Aman'thul (Highfather, time manipulator, potentially authoritarian control freak) or Sargeras (architect of the Burning Legion, driver of 20+ years of Warcraft story).

You'd have to build him beyond lorekeeper *and* give us a valid reason to hate him all in one .1 patch, it'd be difficult to navigate even for a strong narrative team (which we don't have)

A cosmic workshop is a cool aesthetic, but does that have enough variety to sustain an 8-boss raid? It risks being Mechagon ad nauseam - and without significant visual and mechanical variety, that gets old fast.

More importantly: jamming Sargeras and Aman'thul into the same tier doesn't make a lick of sense. These are the two heaviest hitters narratively - you can't give either the mechanical intensity and complexity they deserve in a single raid tier. It'd be like fighting the Lich King and Deathwing back-to-back. There's not enough room to let them breathe as the epic, climactic encounters they need to be. Two back-to-back 10-15+ minute phase-heavy fights would be not only mechanically difficult to deliver while doing justice to the characters, but from a raid progression perspective would be cognitive hell for raid teams.

You need space between your narrative climaxes.

[Vakir]

Joker was only Batman's "biggest" villain since the Tim Burton movie. Doctor Doom isn't even FF's most iconic villain. At this point Ganon is only the bad guy in half the zelda games, Bowser is friendly half the time & all sonic games are bad. Etcetera.

...The Killing Joke and Death in the Family were a year before the Burton film. Joker was getting 4 stories a year since his debut in 1940 which was a lot for a given villain. His popularity was part of why they undid his death.

Doctor Doom being exclusively a FF villain is ancient hat. Doom is the closest thing to a recurring Big Bad for the broader universe that Marvel has had in terms of being the most common figure. Secret Wars was the original crisis crossover.

As far as Zelda games, Ganon is still the villain for the vast majority of the mainline ones, way more than half. There's a trope named after his plot hijack. Same with Bowser albeit Mario and Sonic games have a lot of lazy excuse plots. Either way, the quality of their recurring villains has nothing to do with the game quality.

[milkmustache]

My theory is this:

13.0: Chromatus, Helya, and maybe Xal'atath or normal Iridikron. This is assuming they do the same thing as Midnight and give us 3 raids.

13.1: Sargeras.

13.2: Iridikron infused with Azeroth's Worldsoul Power.

I don’t think Iridikron is going to be the final boss of the Saga. If anything, he fits best at 13.0.

I truly think Iridikron will be the one who not just starts our suspicions towards the Titans, but reveals the conspiracy. He’s set up as a villain, reveals his motions as something that also effects us, and we have a strenuous alliance of convenience for the expansion.

Then from 14.0 forward there’s an opportunity to make him and any remaining primalists a reoccuring cannon fodder villain looking to remove all Titan influence.

I’m still apprehensive about Xal’atath being a Midnight boss. I feel like they’ll build her up to TLT.

[Xilurm]

Most people starting WoW now have no idea who Sargeras is.

I've never played a Zelda game and Mario other than the very first one which I didn't even finish and know who Ganon and Bowser are.

[Wazooty]

We've had two expansions where a planet sized sword being lodged in the planet was a major plot point (and apparently it will be a huge part of late midnight and/or TLT). If that wasn't enough to get them interested then they aren't worth planning the lore around because they simply don't care.