Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/devs-di...rpg-com-379475

So this seems like the first interview that show a commitment to adding more neighborhoods
I am honestly feeling right now that Housing is the expansion and Midnight is the side feature. The marketing push for Housing seems far more thought out and of better quality than for Midnight. Look at the Housing trailer and look at the Expansion release date trailer.

[Cheezits]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/devs-di...rpg-com-379475

So this seems like the first interview that show a commitment to adding more neighborhoods
I am honestly feeling right now that Housing is the expansion and Midnight is the side feature. The marketing push for Housing seems far more thought out and of better quality than for Midnight. Look at the Housing trailer and look at the Expansion release date trailer.

Hard to get new players with Raid #900, Dungeon #901, and a story that requires 200 hours of wikipedia context to be properly good.

I'd like it if TLT has a nice new gameplay feature beyond a new class., but with Delves from TWW, it may just be one every three expansions or so now (that aren't minigames like racing).

[Khaza-R]

Besides Lordaeron, I still don't see what would be a better Midnight patch than Super Mega Chungus Troll Patch. Now, if it's JUST Amani, that's a horrible idea, but if it's the Troll Patch to End All Troll Patches with all the playable allied tribes reuniting to beat some old Warcraft RPG troll villain then I think it's a very good idea for patch content.

And we're probably getting Worldcore as the second patch anyway (over Lordaeron ) so there's the story connection.

I think at best Ula'tek will be a throwback to Hakkar and ZG/ZA of yore. Which cool, but we technically already did that in Cataclysm.

The only way I really see this tying altogether somewhat neatly is if Ula'tek, the Rift of the Aln and the Unseeming are all related. But even then, that's really just TWW's plot thrown on top of this expansion and just makes Midnight feel really unnecessary in the scheme of things.

[GeometryWizard]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/devs-di...rpg-com-379475

So this seems like the first interview that show a commitment to adding more neighborhoods
I am honestly feeling right now that Housing is the expansion and Midnight is the side feature. The marketing push for Housing seems far more thought out and of better quality than for Midnight. Look at the Housing trailer and look at the Expansion release date trailer.

That much is clear just looking at everything they are doing with Midnight with them trying to overhaul new player progression again that literally gives you the option to skip it and go straight to housing instead and the combat and addon changes trying to make getting into the game as smooth and painless as possible for a new player. Even the tagline for the expansion is "Adventure welcomes you home" compared to TWW's "Get back in the fight". Not to mention stuff like Arator's story being a giant rehash of info about characters and the Light the player should already know. Everything revolves around housing and they are clearly hoping for a big influx of new players so the question is what do they do when it likely doesn't happen

[Cheezits]

The only way I really see this tying altogether somewhat neatly is if Ula'tek, the Rift of the Aln and the Unseeming are all related. But even then, that's really just TWW's plot thrown on top of this expansion and just makes Midnight feel really unnecessary in the scheme of things.

I'm not sure if I've brought this up before, but Midnight and TLT being throw into the mix to postpone the TWW worldsoul plot makes me wonder if whatever was planned for after TWW was so fucking bad that it needed the emergency shuffling. Like Avaloren/Arathi stuff was so terrible that Metzen straight up threw it into a black hole.

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Everything revolves around housing and they are clearly hoping for a big influx of new players so the question is what do they do when it likely doesn't happen

Considering the only other serious MMO competitor is in the worst state of its life, if WoW doesn't get new players it's probably over for MMOs in general and the game coasts on these smaller expansions until a meteorite hits.

I think a new player expansion in an old setting is way better than a new player expansion divorced almost entirely from the setting with baby carebear NPCs (Dragonflight), but yeah, if they don't get enough new players from Midnight they should probably never do a new player expansion again and go full lorehead Wowpedia maniac mode.

[GeometryWizard]

Considering the only other serious MMO competitor is in the worst state of its life, if WoW doesn't get new players it's probably over for MMOs in general and the game coasts on these smaller expansions until a meteorite hits.

I think a new player expansion in an old setting is way better than a new player expansion divorced almost entirely from the setting with baby carebear NPCs (Dragonflight), but yeah, if they don't get enough new players from Midnight they should probably never do a new player expansion again and go full lorehead Wowpedia maniac mode.

That's the key problem they need NEW players and not just the same group of people that have been cycling between MMOs for decades now. OSRS is probably in the #2 spot right now given the abysmal numbers for FFXIV in the last LuckyBancho census but that's really a different type of MMO altogether and is already seeing the same problem as above where it's attracted a bunch of Classic WoW players but they just bounce back and forth between the games now

That's probably why they are betting so much on housing because it has different appeal than the usual theme park MMOs or OSRS's mega grind and its house system being purely for function and player power compared to WoW's. I wouldn't be surprised if they pay some Sims content creators to advertise housing since the whole Sims franchise is a dumpster fire at the moment and some big content creators may be backing out of the scene entirely due to the Saudi Arabia buyout

[Cheezits]

That's probably why they are betting so much on housing because it has different appeal than the usual theme park MMOs or OSRS's mega grind and its house system being purely for function and player power compared to WoW's. I wouldn't be surprised if they pay some Sims content creators to advertise housing since the whole Sims franchise is a dumpster fire at the moment and some big content creators may be backing out of the scene entirely due to the Saudi Arabia buyout

They also have some very easy ways to make good Housing updates (mannequins, weapon racks, pets/mounts, NPCs, quest making, new hoods- fairly sure most of these are also confirmed) that will keep the system interesting for at least a few expansions. They just need to keep the -way- you get these items fun and interesting- ergo new classes, new gamemodes, etc.

And maybe do another barbershop pass because people are foaming at the mouth for one (that is arguably not a good use of dev time as most people play only 4 races so why exactly are we adding Pandaren nipple rings and Darkspear Troll beards?)

[Khaza-R]

I'm not sure if I've brought this up before, but Midnight and TLT being throw into the mix to postpone the TWW worldsoul plot makes me wonder if whatever was planned for after TWW was so fucking bad that it needed the emergency shuffling. Like Avaloren/Arathi stuff was so terrible that Metzen straight up threw it into a black hole.

That would be nice if it were true, if for no other reason it would imply some more masterful planning than what we've seen so far.

Unfortunately, I don't think that's the case. I think Metzen returned to a much different culture and dynamic than when he left and tried to play the "cool dad" letting the kids do whatever they want with the story. That seems apparent because its not so much that the WSS is bad. Its just messy and inconsistent. Maybe TLT will have a much better focus, but so far I'm not at all impressed by the Saga or its implementation. Everything other than the tone (even that's questionable) feels like a straight downgrade to Dragonflight.

[Cheezits]

Its just messy and lacks focus. Everything other than the tone (even that's questionable) feels like a straight downgrade to Dragonflight.

But would TWW have been better if it was a tighter story with Dornogal, then Rootlands, then the Worldcore? Because that is looking what it was going to be, a concise story about going deeper into the earth every patch to save the worldsoul from corruption. But would it have been better? I am assuming original TWW and its follow-up (Avaloren, if it was in alpha DF) was deemed not up to snuff by Metzen and whoever brought him back- which is actually what Bobby Kotick said specifically. Otherwise no reason to take risks with going back to do Quelthalas, touch Northrend/Shadowlands, etc. Just keep pumping out new stuff new races new islands.

I think the original drafts for TWW and 12.0 were more concise and focused but they just "weren't good enough", likely because it was more OC slop that had little to nothing to do with Warcraft (Arathi, dark trolls? (who knows what they originally were) guarding a singular world tree we've never heard about it, a new continent that we only know to have half elves and maybe green dragons, etc).

I think K'aresh was a mediocre, rushed major patch (not the worst but up there) but Danuser TWW would have likely been lamer and I hate to think what Avaloren was originally going to be like.

[Joshuaj]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/devs-di...rpg-com-379475

So this seems like the first interview that show a commitment to adding more neighborhoods
I am honestly feeling right now that Housing is the expansion and Midnight is the side feature. The marketing push for Housing seems far more thought out and of better quality than for Midnight. Look at the Housing trailer and look at the Expansion release date trailer.

That's what you took from this? Seriously?

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How about "oh wow, this feature is really cool, and it'll compliment Midnight well"? Cause that was my first reaction to this...

Shit, the fact Blizzard is revamping Northrend implies they're heavy on the vibes, as that's a Winter setting, and instead of the Scourge, it's the Titans (which is far more magical ngl). Heck, latest expacs of WoW have been aiming for a magical vibe, which I like.

[Schwert]

That's the key problem they need NEW players and not just the same group of people that have been cycling between MMOs for decades now. OSRS is probably in the #2 spot right now given the abysmal numbers for FFXIV in the last LuckyBancho census but that's really a different type of MMO altogether and is already seeing the same problem as above where it's attracted a bunch of Classic WoW players but they just bounce back and forth between the games now

That's probably why they are betting so much on housing because it has different appeal than the usual theme park MMOs or OSRS's mega grind and its house system being purely for function and player power compared to WoW's. I wouldn't be surprised if they pay some Sims content creators to advertise housing since the whole Sims franchise is a dumpster fire at the moment and some big content creators may be backing out of the scene entirely due to the Saudi Arabia buyout

Trying to attract purely "cozy gamers" to an IP based on fantasy war is not going to work out the way they want it to, and they're going to wind up alienating and pissing off both audiences any time they try to veer too much in one direction.

Already have problems with people using this game like it's just DnD with purple elves at this point, and it's ravaged RP servers for people who actually like Warcraft.

Housing is needed, but they need to actually understand what game this is, and it's not animal crossing or the sims.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I mean Ula'teks poison could be absorbed or it could tie back into Life and Rift of Aln etc. it could be the connective point to the Dark Heart. But again, I don't know.

The World Soul Saga marketing did what it needed to do and again the health of the game has never been better considering where Shadowlands left us off, sure they are playing with a lot of fire right now but I think they never cared in the first place if the Lore/Narrative fans bitched and got loud when the budgeting and resources were cut and the framing of the game was put square on Gameplay focus than Story focus.

[Khaza-R]

But would TWW have been better if it was a tighter story with Dornogal, then Rootlands, then the Worldcore? Because that is looking what it was going to be, a concise story about going deeper into the earth every patch to save the worldsoul from corruption. But would it have been better? I am assuming original TWW and its follow-up (Avaloren, if it was in alpha DF) was deemed not up to snuff by Metzen and whoever brought him back- which is actually what Bobby Kotick said specifically. Otherwise no reason to take risks with going back to do Quelthalas, touch Northrend/Shadowlands, etc. Just keep pumping out new stuff new races new islands.

I think the original drafts for TWW and 12.0 were more concise and focused but they just "weren't good enough", likely because it was more OC slop that had little to nothing to do with Warcraft (Arathi, dark trolls? (who knows what they originally were) guarding a singular world tree we've never heard about it, a new continent that we only know to have half elves and maybe green dragons, etc).

I think K'aresh was a mediocre, rushed major patch (not the worst but up there) but Danuser TWW would have likely been lamer and I hate to think what Avaloren was originally going to be like.

This somewhat enters the realm of personal preference. And its also hard to speculate based of "what could of been" since our minds tend to envision the most optimal, but not realistic scenario.

That said, yes I do think TWW would of been stronger been a more condensed story. The base campaign and Undermine(d) were very strong. Assuming they could of followed through with at least a moderate payoff of the Unseeming being a huge threat building under our noses, I think it would of been a very, very solid expansion.

On a somewhat separate tangent about Metzen. I think he's really failing at what he's best at if I am giving an honest critique. The man is a great hype man and world builder. He's not a great storytelling in my opinion. His follow up works in D3 and SC2 are not good. But they if nothing else he still made them feel bombastic and epic. Which looks at the WSS so far I just do not feel in any sense. Maybe they can hit their stride as a team in 14.0 and beyond. But for me, the outlook of the rest of the Saga isn't good.

[Limayria]

They also have some very easy ways to make good Housing updates (mannequins, weapon racks, pets/mounts, NPCs, quest making, new hoods- fairly sure most of these are also confirmed) that will keep the system interesting for at least a few expansions. They just need to keep the -way- you get these items fun and interesting- ergo new classes, new gamemodes, etc.

And maybe do another barbershop pass because people are foaming at the mouth for one (that is arguably not a good use of dev time as most people play only 4 races so why exactly are we adding Pandaren nipple rings and Darkspear Troll beards?)

They should just fully commit to the 4 races that make up 75% of the player base and give them actual good customization and focus on making armor look good on them

Start designing more sets for orcs/nelves/belves first rather than just always humans first, and give us more body types for humans/orcs/elves


Hell I even think they should add a community hair style design thing where fan made hair styles can be added, look at shit like all the bg3 character customization mods or stuff like sims 4 custom content, that's the sort of stuff that'd appeal to the housing crowd because I know a lot of people who like the idea of housing in wow but then they look at the small handful of decent looking races and get turned off by the hair styles that were dated and ugly 15 years ago and lack of meaningful piercings/tattoos/other customization

And what are we sacrificing good character customization for? So that a handful of people can make ugly ass kul titan eyesore characters? Or mechagnome meme characters? Lmao

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I do think the comfy marketing is really weird when the Story stuff is so bizarrely neglected but again I am also not surprised considering the Warcraft Team has always operated within lots of dichotomies in the past.

[Enrif]

Trying to attract purely "cozy gamers" to an IP based on fantasy war is not going to work out the way they want it to, and they're going to wind up alienating and pissing off both audiences any time they try to veer too much in one direction.

WoW is for a long time no longer about "fantasy war". It is a generic fantasy setting, that has sometimes faction problems as themes, but mostly deals with supernatural things. The last time we had a "war" it was at the end more about eldritch beings and the dealings of the death realm. War, isn't part of Warcraft since WC2. Even WC3 was less about warfare and more about banding together against the greater enemy. If you want war, you might have better luck in warhammer.

[Khaza-R]

And what are we sacrificing good character customization for? So that a handful of people can make ugly ass kul titan eyesore characters? Or mechagnome meme characters? Lmao

Lord, this is such a toxic, shitty attitude. They don't need to "sacrifice" anything in order to add more customizations.

[Joshuaj]

Trying to attract purely "cozy gamers" to an IP based on fantasy war is not going to work out the way they want it to, and they're going to wind up alienating and pissing off both audiences any time they try to veer too much in one direction.

Already have problems with people using this game like it's just DnD with purple elves at this point, and it's ravaged RP servers for people who actually like Warcraft.

Housing is needed, but they need to actually understand what game this is, and it's not animal crossing or the sims.

Hey, Schwert, buddy, did you know that housing was planned for Classic WoW, and it was planned to have similar features to the current system, but it wasn't implemented cause the technology just wasn't properly there at the time?

Also, did you know the feature is releasing in an expac based around the forces Light and Shadow fighting on Azeroth? And did you know that, in said expac, there's going to be a battleground and WPVP area that's all about the Alliance and Horde conflict (And yes, there is story relevancy there)?

You didn't? I wonder why. Maybe it's because you and others are so focused on 1 thing, you refuse to acknowledge what's actually in front of y'all?

[Nymrohd]

But would TWW have been better if it was a tighter story with Dornogal, then Rootlands, then the Worldcore? Because that is looking what it was going to be, a concise story about going deeper into the earth every patch to save the worldsoul from corruption. But would it have been better? I am assuming original TWW and its follow-up (Avaloren, if it was in alpha DF) was deemed not up to snuff by Metzen and whoever brought him back- which is actually what Bobby Kotick said specifically. Otherwise no reason to take risks with going back to do Quelthalas, touch Northrend/Shadowlands, etc. Just keep pumping out new stuff new races new islands.

I'd see it like this
Undermine still happens. It is still underground, they did have them be part of Ringing Deeps and Azj'kahet. Then we get Harandar only instead of Light invasion it's Black Blood with the Rift of Aln as the final raid where we defeat Xal'atath and capture her. Then in the prepatch the Voidstorm still happens only this time it is the Shadowguard and Dimensius invading instead of Xal. The entire alliance of convenience with Xal happens in Midnight with K'aresh joining the Voidstorm as zones. Instead of depending on Xal to give us solutions vs Dimensius for a questline done in one week, we have her with us through the entire Midnight campaign. Instead of Voidspire we get Manaforge Omega and in the end of that, she sucks Dimensius in the Dark Heart, overpowers Alleria to get L'ura out of her, kills Locus Walker as he saves us in the last minute porting us back to Silvermoon and then we have the March to Quel'danas raid only Alleria is an extra encounter there.

We just shuffle the two zones around. The Unseeming assets are used for the Rift of Aln raid and the Black Blood Harandar areas. K'aresh has time to bake. And the story would imo be far more consistent and give both Dimensius and Xal a chance to be characters.

[Limayria]

Lord, this is such a toxic, shitty attitude. They don't need to "sacrifice" anything in order to add more customizations.

Blizzard has literally come out and talked about how adding new races, especially with new body shapes is a huge ongoing commitment of dev resources, so yes we literally are sacrificing dev time and resources that could have been spent on touching up existing races by adding things like earthen with their 1 billion customizations, or dracthyr visage forms which are just humans/male blood elves with modern customization. Did any of this get back ported? Fucking of course not because that wouldn't be "fair" or what ever