Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

To be fair, being a huge hypocrite making short-term decisions that are approximately well-intentioned but incidentally also result in him looking good/gaining power is pretty in line with WC3 Illidan.

Certainly. My main point was, TBC Illidan actually had a non-villain reason for being an awful person; he was just insane. Post retcon he is even more awful than before and Legion just keeps hammering that with X'era giving us all the backstory about how he kept killing his subordinates so he could be stronger.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

But there is a difference between being evil and having phrases similiar to nazis on one of your main pc races lol. And we all know from where blood and honour comes ...

Are you seriously trying to sell that blood and honor is supposed to be a play on blood and soil?

[Super Dickmann]

Are you seriously trying to sell that blood and honor is supposed to be a play on blood and soil?

Actually, he's referencing Blut und Ehre, which was Metzen's inspiration as well. I sat with him at a Beerhall in München the other week and while were commisserating about our Top 10 list of Austrians, he told me he borrrowed the phrase because it encompassed the Frostfire-Durotaric orcish racial soul.

"Blood is important, Dickmann, because it is the mortar that binds the Orcish People, carried from their ancestors unbroken into the present day, uniting them regardless of clan. While a spearchucking troll or grazing tauren may have some facsimile Ersatz-honor, produced for him by World Goblinry, the lack of blood will forever set their race of spiritual peons apart from the True Horde." he told me. "Oh, and don't get me started on elves."

[Lady Atia]

Are you seriously trying to sell that blood and honor is supposed to be a play on blood and soil?

No, blood and honour was literally the motto of the Hitler Youth??

[Vakir]

Certainly. My main point was, TBC Illidan actually had a non-villain reason for being an awful person; he was just insane. Post retcon he is even more awful than before and Legion just keeps hammering that with X'era giving us all the backstory about how he kept killing his subordinates so he could be stronger.

Insanity is lazy and robs a character of agency, though. It was widely mocked at the time because they did it with basically every villain. Illidan is in alignment with his WC3 characterization, as said. The problem is they didn't have much of a plan besides "raid boss" as early as '03, given the opening cinematic music's full version ends with his leitmotif, Caydiem confirmed he was the strongest NPC at the time of her early writing, and the 1.0 version datamined glaives. A story was clearly secondary to that plan, considering Outland was potentially slated to be one zone, which is why it's so weird they left him alive at all in that case.

A competent portrait of the same TBC information from the start could've also saved a lot of decisions to be appropriately dark-grey rather than just going turbo-psycho in the most bland way possible.

Illidan using a pit lord to juice his army? Perhaps Mag'har reckless and pissed enough to want it, similar to Demon Hunters? Absolutely in character. Kidnapping a bunch of narrative saints to do it? Extremely comically evil. Zangarmarsh being drained of water? Could be a short-term problem seen as necessary to construct a new Well of Eternity alongside the siphoned mana from the Netherstorm. In actuality, a Captain Planet story disconnected from him entirely, alongside another story disconnected for the purposes of writing assassination of a different character, Kael. Digging up artifacts he has no idea how to use with major consequences to the land and stealing them from their cultural origins? Fucked up, but it tracks. Having a bunch of slaves of exclusively the most sad-ugly-cute race on his side to feel bad for? Again, mustache twirling.

Literally every interaction with Illidan in WC3 from an outside POV is "Oh no, he's doing or has done something pure evil! Wait, we were not aware of critical information. It turns out there were some good things here, actually. Oh wait, we just learned this was selfish in its intentions, so that's kinda fucked up. This guy is a wild card."

So basically that's everything in King's book and Legion, down to warping a damn planet to us while thinking the Army of the Light was non-existent - an army we very much needed to win, making him categorically wrong and arrogant.

Minus the awful fellating Xe'ra questline and Turalyon flipping back from being mad in about 3 seconds. That can all piss off.

[Super Dickmann]

Minus the awful fellating Xe'ra questline and Turalyon flipping back from being mad in about 3 seconds. That can all piss off.

To this day I'm not quite sure whether the Xe'ra questline was deliberately so over the top discordant between what Xe'ra tells you and its own actual content for the turn at the very end or if they backtracked hard in response to everyone, everywhere taking the piss.

[Sondrelk]

To this day I'm not quite sure whether the Xe'ra questline was deliberately so over the top discordant between what Xe'ra tells you and its own actual content for the turn at the very end or if they backtracked hard in response to everyone, everywhere taking the piss.

The only way I could see the Xe'ra questline making sense, besides a gas leak in Blizzard studios that week. Is if they originally made a questline showcasing Illidan, realized this would actually make him a villain, and then decided that instead of remaking it they would add narration over it telling us it was all actually done by perfect best boy Illidan.

[Vakir]

To this day I'm not quite sure whether the Xe'ra questline was deliberately so over the top discordant between what Xe'ra tells you and its own actual content for the turn at the very end or if they backtracked hard in response to everyone, everywhere taking the piss.

The only way I could see the Xe'ra questline making sense, besides a gas leak in Blizzard studios that week. Is if they originally made a questline showcasing Illidan, realized this would actually make him a villain, and then decided that instead of remaking it they would add narration over it telling us it was all actually done by perfect best boy Illidan.

I think Sondrelk may have got it in one, albeit it's still an uncertainty and we'll probably never know with the team fragmented and many departed. What I would do for a Valve or ND level behind the scenes or developer commentary to know what this absolutely bizarre process looks like for each expac story including dropped or altered stories.

It's funny because it's another example with their poor writing that isn't directly connected with Anduinism, but is endemic of the same problem. There is absolutely nothing that stopped them from an interesting questline with the exact same content, but with Xe'ra's commentary instead being something along the lines of "We have seen that it is the will of the Light to empower him as a champion. His actions are terrible and reckless and even we who believe in redemption would see him remained in his imprisonment - if not for the plans to make him a vessel for something far darker." Then when he makes it to Xe'ra, instead of the chosen one deal and her essentially doing the Naaru equivalent of that scene with the fangirl with The Deep and his gills, she doesn't believe he is worthy of his agency and that he's a liability without the forceful guidance of the Light, so she immediately becomes hostile to try to override him.

Because by all accounts he SHOULD be incompatible with the Army and Illidan stops being interesting when he's standing in a spaceship and not an outcast doing sketchy but helpful stuff on the side. He should've been completely cast out by them, out of focus, and then comes in clutch at pivotal moments in the raid via bonkers-ass recklessness unsanctioned and met with hostility from the Army of the Light.

But instead, when someone is a protagonist, they must be entirely wholesome and the most interesting person in the world. It's just how they write their heroes now and it's annoying and nothing new.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

No, blood and honour was literally the motto of the Hitler Youth??

So it was, wasn't aware of that.

"Blood is important, Dickmann, because it is the mortar that binds the Orcish People, carried from their ancestors unbroken into the present day, uniting them regardless of clan. While a spearchucking troll or grazing tauren may have some facsimile Ersatz-honor, produced for him by World Goblinry, the lack of blood will forever set their race of spiritual peons apart from the True Horde." he told me. "Oh, and don't get me started on elves."

Since Blood and Honor is an Alliance phrase as opposed to a Horde one, I have to assume that contrary to what Metzen told you this actually means the Horde are clean of fascist influence. At least this puts Umbric's antics in BfA in a new light knowing he's doing it to advance Alliance National Bolshevism. Granted, I'm not sure how well it'll get along with Anduinite End of History theory, but maybe Umbric's Red-Brown Alliance will give the Alliance some meaningful intrafactional conflict.

Given the Horde are afflicted with the plague of Goblo-Bolshevik subversion, maybe this actually puts their militarism in the camp of Acéphale since they were anti-fascist but were similarly immersed in aestheticized violence. Bataillean Accursed Share economics weren't something I expected to see in WoW but they might as well, the Horde is starved for identity after the pisstake of the Horde council.

[huth]

But instead, when someone is a protagonist, they must be entirely wholesome and the most interesting person in the world. It's just how they write their heroes now and it's annoying and nothing new.

Except nobody even remotely pretends Illidan is that. Except for Xe'ra.

[Alanar]

This is actually quite hilarious trying to pretend that Dalaran "wasnt real" in vanilla as an alliance city.
.

If a crater filled with broken houses and a few nameless npcs iwas considered a actual alliance city in vanilla, then sure!!

[Limayria]

I think Sondrelk may have got it in one, albeit it's still an uncertainty and we'll probably never know with the team fragmented and many departed. What I would do for a Valve or ND level behind the scenes or developer commentary to know what this absolutely bizarre process looks like for each expac story including dropped or altered stories.

It's funny because it's another example with their poor writing that isn't directly connected with Anduinism, but is endemic of the same problem. There is absolutely nothing that stopped them from an interesting questline with the exact same content, but with Xe'ra's commentary instead being something along the lines of "We have seen that it is the will of the Light to empower him as a champion. His actions are terrible and reckless and even we who believe in redemption would see him remained in his imprisonment - if not for the plans to make him a vessel for something far darker." Then when he makes it to Xe'ra, instead of the chosen one deal and her essentially doing the Naaru equivalent of that scene with the fangirl with The Deep and his gills, she doesn't believe he is worthy of his agency and that he's a liability without the forceful guidance of the Light, so she immediately becomes hostile to try to override him.

Because by all accounts he SHOULD be incompatible with the Army and Illidan stops being interesting when he's standing in a spaceship and not an outcast doing sketchy but helpful stuff on the side. He should've been completely cast out by them, out of focus, and then comes in clutch at pivotal moments in the raid via bonkers-ass recklessness unsanctioned and met with hostility from the Army of the Light.

But instead, when someone is a protagonist, they must be entirely wholesome and the most interesting person in the world. It's just how they write their heroes now and it's annoying and nothing new.

Or maybe Xera doesn't give a fuck about mortal lives and, like Illidan views stopping the legion as the only thing worth caring about. There for all of Illidan's "evil" is inconsequential from Xe'ra's pov

[Vakir]

Except nobody even remotely pretends Illidan is that. Except for Xe'ra.

Correct, but on a surface consequence level where Malfurion and Tyrande harrumph condescendingly in a post-game or Khadgar going "uuuuuwhaaaaa?" Velen still sees him off warmly after he blew up his prime god and he still spends the rest of the patch standing next to Light Cuckold Clint Eastwood with a hand wound to show for it.

As the rest of the conversation you interjected into established, we were uncertain how much this was an intentional decision to course correct her fellating or if it was planned all along. Given history, it wouldn't really surprise me if it was another example of handling with the kid gloves. Either way, I just said how it should've gone down without turning a Prime Naaru into a stupid fangirl with values that are incompatible.

Or maybe Xera doesn't give a fuck about mortal lives and, like Illidan views stopping the legion as the only thing worth caring about. There for all of Illidan's "evil" is inconsequential from Xe'ra's pov

Xe'ra should be aloof and impersonal to some degree as a top level leader of an alien race, but the TBC characterization of the Naaru was more directly compassionate.

It's the same problem as always as the homogeneity of the cosmic forces. Without a set of values or principles to ascribe to, it's all just interchangeable colors that can be used for good or bad. Barring willing exceptions like Lothraxion, there shouldn't be much cooperation with demons by choice, and they need to clearly have some value around life and compassion, with judgment rendered that would be very much at odds with a character like him.

[Limayria]

Correct, but on a surface consequence level where Malfurion and Tyrande harrumph condescendingly in a post-game or Khadgar going "uuuuuwhaaaaa?" Velen still sees him off warmly after he blew up his prime god and he still spends the rest of the patch standing next to Light Cuckold Clint Eastwood with a hand wound to show for it.

As the rest of the conversation you interjected into established, we were uncertain how much this was an intentional decision to course correct her fellating or if it was planned all along. Given history, it wouldn't really surprise me if it was another example of handling with the kid gloves. Either way, I just said how it should've gone down without turning a Prime Naaru into a stupid fangirl with values that are incompatible.



Xe'ra should be aloof and impersonal to some degree as a top level leader of an alien race, but the TBC characterization of the Naaru was more directly compassionate.

It's the same problem as always as the homogeneity of the cosmic forces. Without a set of values or principles to ascribe to, it's all just interchangeable colors that can be used for good or bad. Barring willing exceptions like Lothraxion, there shouldn't be much cooperation with demons by choice, and they need to clearly have some value around life and compassion, with judgment rendered that would be very much at odds with a character like him.

Yes but to Xe'ra, the Naaru specifically leading the war against the demons destroying the legion was their number one goal so they were willing to do anything to achieve it. Including working with people using demonic powers.

That was the whole point of the Xe'ra quest line. Both Xe'ra and Illidan are of the same mindset. That's literally the whole point

And it makes sense because working with Illidan is the compassionate choice when your perspective is wide enough because he was the one who truly provided a path to stopping the legion and saving the entire universe. So Xe'ra sees everything else as "for the greater good"

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Xe'ra should be aloof and impersonal to some degree as a top level leader of an alien race, but the TBC characterization of the Naaru was more directly compassionate.

It's the same problem as always as the homogeneity of the cosmic forces. Without a set of values or principles to ascribe to, it's all just interchangeable colors that can be used for good or bad. Barring willing exceptions like Lothraxion, there shouldn't be much cooperation with demons by choice, and they need to clearly have some value around life and compassion, with judgment rendered that would be very much at odds with a character like him.

There's not much more substantive commentary I can think of adding, since my sentiment can be summed up as "I agree". What you've said so far is pretty solidly on-point. But just for the sake of it:

In addition to what you said about the naaru being portrayed as personally compassionate in TBC, even their strict, zero-tolerance dogmatism entirely didn't exist. In addition to there being no indication that anybody was interested in hiding the ability of the naaru to fall to the Void like Xe'ra was (which, granted, could be written off as her own dogmatism as opposed to retconning the attitudes of the naaru overall), A'dal explicitly says this:

(Creatures of the void) are a necessary part of the universe, but they must be kept in check by the Light.

This reflects an effectively cosmically paternalistic attitude that's significantly more interesting than the angle of the Light being dogmatic and assimilationist while still playing the "one true path" slogan in a better way that's less redundant with the Pantheon and more suited to a religiously-flavored faction.

[Vakir]

That was the whole point of the Xe'ra quest line. Both Xe'ra and Illidan are of the same mindset. That's literally the whole point

Lmao.

Xe'ra didn't pause for a second on any decision and the information we were given and the style it was delivered didn't even depict Illidan that way. He didn't try any other path whatsoever than immediately just murdering his disciples for power and didn't seem even remotely with an ounce of empathy. I'm not criticizing the action as an in-character decision, but we go from zero to 100 and Xe'ra responds to it with "yup this is the way, what a noble soul." There's degrees to how pragmatic you make someone and how they respond to it.

This direction worked in King's book, but this questline didn't stick the landing not because of failure to understand some vapid attempt at a parallel but because it was so myopic and without nuance that it bordered on parody.

It is really hard not to believe that it's writers blowing smoke up our ass as an apology for TBC.

If it was really about them being of the same mind, Illidan would have accepted the gift and seen it as a necessary sacrifice, but he doesn't, because he's a very flawed individual and a massive hypocrite. Again, not a criticism on my part of the character decision, him blowing up a Naaru is one of the best rerailings I've seen in a while for a character. But it was to explicitly indicate that, no, actually, there is no commonality and parallel and either the prime Naaru is a fucking moron or they course corrected against a bad "chosen one" story the community rejected.

The latter is the more charitable reading.

[JohnnyCasual]

If a crater filled with broken houses and a few nameless npcs iwas considered a actual alliance city in vanilla, then sure!!

You are describing the area from wotlk forward. In vanilla there was a giant bubble blocking people from entering but the Intention is that Dalaran was there, just inaccessible. You can witness this in Classic right now. Unless your point is "If I cant go there then it doesnt exist" which is a wild take considering things like Northrend or Gilneas wasn't accessible until wotlk/cata, but we knew for sure that they existed.

[Vakir]

The factional "number of locations" arms race and its consequences have been a disaster for WoW and its writing.

Whatever color you ascribe to an area and the idea of there being some minimum NPC presence allowed for it to "count" and flawless parity being desired is how we got into some of the mess we're in now.

[Limayria]

https://ibb.co/QFd6fdBK

edit: Idk why the image imbeds never work for me, I just changed it to a link

here's that research log i mentioned before btw; text says

"Day 267

The Magister brought in some new plants to test. But something feels wrong about them. They're already full of magic-- I'm worried what adding more will do to them.

He says it might be the breakthrough we need to help support mana balancing in lands beyond Azeroth. At the moment I'll just have to trust him"


the plants ended up spawning a lightbloom monster but it seems to imply to me that "mana balancing in lands beyong Azeorth" was at least one of the goals of the research these Magisters were doing

[huth]

He didn't try any other path whatsoever than immediately just murdering his disciples for power and didn't seem even remotely with an ounce of empathy.

He does hesitate initially and does lament their death, he just sees it as a necessity in the moment. It doesn't help that he was under severe time constraints so spending much time looking for an alternative wasn't actually that feasible.

When did you last actually do the questline?