Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Vakir]

Basically illidari being good people who bought into Illidan's cult of personality and ended up too deep to change and their reckoning with the fact that after everything they do for Illidan he still abandons them with out even a good bye or anything at the end of legion


But of course it's basically impossible to have any meaningful story involving the illidari because the most important character in the illidari story is a faceless "champion of azeorth" so the single most interesting and unique aspect of wow lore is left to rot

If it's acknowledged like with Death Knights in Legion and then later into SL, I expect it to be about the same. Immediately discarded if anything interesting starts to come of it.

With regards to Demon Hunters, though, they pretty much 100% know what they're signing up for, albeit 4th War DKs arguably do, and that the life expectancy of enlistment is stupid low.

[Nymrohd]

I agree. My point is that the main story beats should be the focus of the highest fidelity content.

I think the issue is Megadungeons are not that accessible when they are released and then later as M+ you don't really get to experience the story in it when it is split in two and done under a timer.

[Dracullus]

The whole Kayn/Altruis thing is he nearly the thing that truly solidified for me why having actual tangible choices in an MMO wasn't going to work. The game cannot take a firm stance when you can either play Ilidari Demon Hunters who follow lockstep behind Illidan the infallible. Or Illidari the harshly judged Demon Hunters who want to prove that they have good intentions.

Stick to one or the other and live with the consequences.

It's not even MMO thing, it's problem of every series of games with continuous narrative. For example in Witcher, even important choices from W2 had to lead to same conclusion in W3 (at best you got some minor dialogue/cutscenes differences or minor character absence), same will happen to W3 endings with W4 launch. If we want important choices to matter, story must end.

[Joshuaj]

Is it build day today?

[Nymrohd]

It's not even MMO thing, it's problem of every series of games with continuous narrative. For example in Witcher, even important choices from W2 had to lead to same conclusion in W3 (at best you got some minor dialogue/cutscenes differences or minor character absence), same will happen to W3 endings with W4 launch. If we want important choices to matter, story must end.

I think Dragon Age Inquisition managed to have significant differences depending on how you played the previous games

[Limayria]

It's not even MMO thing, it's problem of every series of games with continuous narrative. For example in Witcher, even important choices from W2 had to lead to same conclusion in W3 (at best you got some minor dialogue/cutscenes differences or minor character absence), same will happen to W3 endings with W4 launch. If we want important choices to matter, story must end.

they dont need the story to end, just be willing to commit to a canonical version of events even if you offer multiple possible endings

[Jastall]

I don't actually dispute any of the points you raise - yes, Cataclysm makes Thrall a complete chump who was wrong about his people (though Vanilla to Wrath also seeded this), he must be, because he must be wrong about his race. This also makes him a much better character but I digress. Yes, Jaina becomes a schizophrenic, surely what else could she be, if she let orcs brain her dad for nothing? That's a good thing, as it's a price worth paying for these races to actually ever do anything again. The alternative is right in front of you - Anduin is Thrall and Jaina and if he's right, and he is, about everything and everyone, then the natural step is for everyone to align to him or vanish, unless they're simply ontologically evil. Retvrning to the WC3 Horde or retvrning to prior Jaina (as they've done) solves nothing, because they're just the start of the slippery slope which, if not cut off, logically can only lead right here. The Vanilla to Cata writing staff and in a sense, even Mists to Legion, given that they continually seeded further racial conflicts, realized this.

To end on an example, you mention that Vol'jin becomes an idiot by openly threatening Garrosh. Who's to say he wasn't an idiot before? I couldn't tell you, as he has no personality before Cataclysm and neither does any Darkspear troll. Rokhan, the only troll in a lead role in WC3 never expresses a position or says anything that's not immediate exposition, he's just an appendage to Rexxar, even Misha has more of a thematic role. Vol'jin becomes a character and the Darkspear become an actual polity whne they can no longer parasitize on the orcish characterization and are put opposing it. They exist, in any narrative sense, only in Cataclysm and Mists. Garrosh makes them, as he makes every non-Blood Elf race exist by virtue of opposition. That's incidentally why he's incomparable with Varian, as the Alliance races, being made out of whole cloth in Vanilla and not weighed down by WC3's Orc mini-me and messiah problem, were already defined and were only made worse when united.

And I don't dispute that what you said was done- just that it wasn't the only way. Thrall could have been given more flaws without being shat on in such a way. Cairne could have been sidelined as a possible good influence without being killed effectively offscreen for a plot that goes nowhere. Vol'jin could have been characterized without his first act being political suicide. Garrosh could have been written as the pragmatically brutal Warchief he was meant to be, rather than flip-flop wildly in portrayal whether you're in Stonetalon, Twilight Highlands, or the books. Tensions between Theramore and the Kalimdor Horde are easy to write without blowing over into full-scale war (and the narrative never manages to explain why "I'm proud of my king" Jaina ever says yes to having her city used as staging area for said war but whatever, chalk it up to Varian being the blue Warchief during Cata and Mists). The war could have been portrayed as something else than the Alliance constantly losing whenever the Horde busts out their latest zany supervillain weapon. So on and so forth.

It was inevitable because of a combination of writer ineptitude and the story demands of an MMO that can't linger too long on a single plotline lest fatigue sets in. You can't fix the latter, but you can fix the former, as there are some apt (not good, just decent) writers at Blizzard; sadly, they hardly ever get the main story and character gigs which is why pretty much all main characters are poorly written, Garrosh himself very much being included. If the only possible "cure" to the factions as they were during vanilla was the absolute dogshit that followed, I'd rather the factions have dissolved and not had a story at all.

[huth]

So now that we're done with a "well ackshually" of a few token and disingenuous lines, which is it? Is Xe'ra a total fucking idiot, or was this a course correction from a player rejected story.

Neither. Xe'ra is deluded, not dumb. She is not merely misunderstanding Illidan, she is entirely focused on a fictional version of him that only exists in her mind.

And we didn't get a redemption story for Illidan. He didn't stop being who he was.

I wouldn't put that much stock in the guy who literally forgot who the Draenei were anyway.

[Joshuaj]

Can we not act like Expansion stories are written on a whim, please?

[Limayria]

Neither. Xe'ra is deluded, not dumb. She is not merely misunderstanding Illidan, she is entirely focused on a fictional version of him that only exists in her mind.

And we didn't get a redemption story for Illidan. He didn't stop being who he was.

I wouldn't put that much stock in the guy who literally forgot who the Draenei were anyway.

the fictional version of Illidan Xe'ra was obsessed with is pretty compaitable with Illidans view of himself however; they mostly disagreed on if Illidan needed a light infusion or not; I wonder if there was some planned something or other about the prophecy (i dont think this is quite the right word but idr what else to call it) of the golden eyes in Kaeldorei culture and Xe'ra's connection to Elune that ended up being cut at some point

[Joshuaj]

*is waiting for the new build*

[Vakir]

Neither. Xe'ra is deluded, not dumb. She is not merely misunderstanding Illidan, she is entirely focused on a fictional version of him that only exists in her mind.

...she's the prime version of Warcraft's equivalent of an angel. I'm sorry but this feels like a pretty huge jump in incompetence and off the wavelength of what seems sensible for this type of character, prophecy or not.

If we're going to entertain this then we also need to accept two things - that we're fortunate she got obliterated because otherwise everyone would have been screwed during Rennilash, and that the Army of the Light is extremely stupid to worship and trust the entity who has the character judgment and literacy of a 14 year old AO3 user. It damages both of these plot hooks.

And we didn't get a redemption story for Illidan. He didn't stop being who he was.

...nobody said we did. You were so fast to insert yourself in the conversation you can't keep up with that apparently you didn't get the full context.

The entire argument was over whether, in the end, the resolution we got was intentional from the start or whether it was a pivot in response to feedback. And there's precedent - Metzen mentioned in a WoW magazine interview that fan response to what happened with Bolvar was why they made him the new Lich King.

The pushback causing one to think something was mismanaged or at least that something went entirely wrong with that questline is just how incongruous the actions depicted are with what she says in each quest's denouement.

But since apparently we're allowing so much grace to the writing that we're ready to pretend that the ancient leader of an almost endless battle just happens to not see basic reality and has grand delusions rather than just...the writing of a few quests having some problems. We're past Occam's Razor here and going into "the mega-angel is such a fan of someone that she doesn't have eyes or ears."

I wouldn't put that much stock in the guy who literally forgot who the Draenei were anyway.

This supports my point. If there's a major creative part to play by someone who has shown a lack of consistency and even a total understanding of many of his characters in the first place, why would that not be more indication they're capable of being completely out of touch in how they depicted certain things when that person has input, even if they aren't the sole arbiter?

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Can we not act like Expansion stories are written on a whim, please?

They aren't written on a complete whim, but they are subject to sudden shifts and can be retooled at the last second. The story isn't exceptionally well-planned and even if CDev looks ahead, evidence suggests they do shift things in response to feedback (a clear and significant case of this is Denathrius' survival) or changes within their own environment, and I can name at least one impulsive decision that's allegedly suffered from a change of plans (and was probably a short-sighted decision in general) in the Burning of Teldrassil, which devolved into a meandering night elf pity party where the only thing that would give much genuine catharsis, i.e. actual, meaningful retaliation, was never going to happen because all of the expansion that actually related to its ostensible premise was also dedicated to ending it. I buy that CDev thinks ahead and has a rough skeleton in their minds, but they also make stories that don't get resolved and plenty of those are likely the results of changes made after the first parts had already been set in stone, TWW's obvious shuffling around being a prime example.

[Limayria]

They aren't written on a complete whim, but they are subject to sudden shifts and can be retooled at the last second. The story isn't exceptionally well-planned and even if CDev looks ahead, evidence suggests they do shift things in response to feedback (a clear and significant case of this is Denathrius' survival) or changes within their own environment, and I can name at least one impulsive decision that's allegedly suffered from a change of plans (and was probably a short-sighted decision in general) in the Burning of Teldrassil, which devolved into a meandering night elf pity party where the only thing that would give much genuine catharsis, i.e. actual, meaningful retaliation, was never going to happen because all of the expansion that actually related to its ostensible premise was also dedicated to ending it. I buy that CDev thinks ahead and has a rough skeleton in their minds, but they also make stories that don't get resolved and plenty of those are likely the results of changes made after the first parts had already been set in stone, TWW's obvious shuffling around being a prime example.

not to mention stuff like the total retooling of gorgrond or the rework of highmountian in beta removing wrathion completly leaving his arc hanging

[Joshuaj]

Oh...guess no Beta Build today due to the fuck ass Classic MoP patch.

[Nightmare Queen]

So many cool ideas you could have for humanoid versions. An updated version of the Twin Emperors for C'thun. A fancy Nerubian lord for Yogg-Saron. Innsmouth inspired fish man for N'zoth.

Y'shaarj should be like this guy

[Nightshade711]

So many cool ideas you could have for humanoid versions. An updated version of the Twin Emperors for C'thun. A fancy Nerubian lord for Yogg-Saron. Innsmouth inspired fish man for N'zoth.

Slightly unrelated but I am still disappointed that blizzard went with the Nerubians instead of qiraji - you know the ones that actually had humanoid forms to begin with and were in closer proximity to Khaz Algar.

[huth]

...she's the prime version of Warcraft's equivalent of an angel. I'm sorry but this feels like a pretty huge jump in incompetence and off the wavelength of what seems sensible for this type of character, prophecy or not.

So? We've seen plenty of beings on her level go loopy over the years. That's not a meaningful argument for anything. And delusion isn't incompetence.

This supports my point. If there's a major creative part to play by someone who has shown a lack of consistency and even a total understanding of many of his characters in the first place, why would that not be more indication they're capable of being completely out of touch in how they depicted certain things when that person has input, even if they aren't the sole arbiter?

But at the same time that makes it i highly questionable if their input on the matter can even be trusted in the first place. It doesn't support your point. It makes Metzen a poor source.

[Super Dickmann]

And I don't dispute that what you said was done- just that it wasn't the only way. Thrall could have been given more flaws without being shat on in such a way. Cairne could have been sidelined as a possible good influence without being killed effectively offscreen for a plot that goes nowhere. Vol'jin could have been characterized without his first act being political suicide. Garrosh could have been written as the pragmatically brutal Warchief he was meant to be, rather than flip-flop wildly in portrayal whether you're in Stonetalon, Twilight Highlands, or the books. Tensions between Theramore and the Kalimdor Horde are easy to write without blowing over into full-scale war (and the narrative never manages to explain why "I'm proud of my king" Jaina ever says yes to having her city used as staging area for said war but whatever, chalk it up to Varian being the blue Warchief during Cata and Mists). The war could have been portrayed as something else than the Alliance constantly losing whenever the Horde busts out their latest zany supervillain weapon. So on and so forth.

Could it have been done better? Of course, so can any story in the franchise, including better ones than this. For both Thrall and Jaina it's by re-centering it on what WC3 skipped, which is the growing pains and opposition of actually setting up their new start when God isn't as obliging by removing the entirety of your opposition for you. Cut the green guilt bit entirely - Thrall didn't even know the orcs weren't just victims until Grom told him at the end of RoC, he has no ingrained sense of guilt, more than that, he names places and forces after the Old Horde. Focus entirely on him repurposing and maintaining institutions that mean something a lot different to him than they do to his people. Failing to maintain themselves without pillaging then goes from just a growing pain in Vanilla-to-Wrath when things are relatively stable in Durotar to too much when Cataclysm roils the world. In the same vein, notwithstanding the quality of Varian's backstory, nothing necessitated that his gladiator ring be out in the open, not even his hatred of Thrall. Have the underground ring be actually underground instead of to cheering crowds and instead of having Thrall, literally named 'slave', maintain a slavery ring, make it a tacitly aware underground institution like warlocks, have Thrall shut it down but, as with said warlocks (which Varian wouldn't be inexplicably tolerant towards) and as the warlocks, use that for Varian to consider Thrall to be a thin veneer over what the Horde still is.

In turn, don't make Jaina's entire struggle off-screen, gushing about muh king and being nice one second and then being more hawkish than he is the next, focus the Cataclysm bit of Theramore being a staging ground as pressure from Varian to operate through there that she lacks the position to countermand and that, while under Thrall she might have orc support for, under Garrosh the orcs don't accept this as grounds to treat, so to not cut herself and her people off during the same circumstances which would be wearing down Durotar she goes with it. Moral compromise is an interesting story only when it's actually a compromise. Tides of War both has the actions of Cataclysm physically take place and doesn't address any implications, meaning that even when she does change Jaina does it as a pure victim.

These and other things could surely have made those beats better. But the beats themselves in some form are mandatory. For one, there's simply no existence for the Darkspear and the tauren so long as they remain orc mini-mes, but that's just garnish. Far more importantly than that, there's no viable identity for any faction or race if their starting premise is that their opposite number's ethos and cause is righteous and theirs is shit. The disease is uncountably worse than the cure and the state of the factions if they did accept the Noblesavage/Jaina/Anduin paradigm was obvious then and blindingly obvious now. It's Eitrigg in the Sons of Lothar, Baine chopping off pieces of himself to send to children and so on. It's to the credit of the Wrath-to-Cata Blizzard that they killed it once, and to the severe discredit of the writing staff now that they so fundamentally misunderstand the most basic needs of a perpetually running MMO about war that they can't and won't elect to kill it twice.

That said, one of the reasons I’m more charitable to Midnight than most is despite the utter retardation of some of the steps it takes to get there (Lightmad lol) and that it still has its obligatory world peace (Amani lol), its the very first story since Legion where the different groups fighting the big bad disagree on fundamental things and this disagreement leads to physical confrontations between them, where people actually die. In their next step of trying to laboriously reconstruct basic elements of the franchise from first principles they can move on to not doing this in space, or dare we dream, foregoing the use of cosmic rays.

[Jaggler]

Oh...guess no Beta Build today due to the fuck ass Classic MoP patch.

There is a build, but they ran into problems apparently so the servers are still offline. should come up sometime today.