Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lady Atia]

I'd lose my shit if they did an outright Sylvanas timewalking because it would be the most utterly confusing thing in the game to the point that Cho's head would probably go Scanners on us.

Not if they base it on her book, which actually made sense.

Bonus points if they straight up retcon Afrasiabis' bullshit during BfA. ^.^

[Ersula]

It would probably be a new scenario, then her suicide, then Gilneas, then Legion, then something in SL. A new scenario about her death at the hands of Arthas would go hard.

I keep thinking it should be Lordaeron centric but that just comes up with a cutscene of Arthas killing his dad, the Liliana Voss questline, the Battle for Lordaeron scenario.... but then anything further than that would have to be centered on Sylvanas. Or maybe they could wrap it up with Cata's Andorhol questline.

[Joshuaj]

There are a few updated orange and purple plagueland trees in Thalassian Pass that may have been hinting at this from the get go.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G77wU0Aa....jpg?name=orig

The story only points to the Worldcore for future content but as we see with Atal'utek that doesn't matter.

I mean, yeah, but it's entirely possible the Worldcore Void stuff is gonna be saved for TLT. This is a saga after all.

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Not if they base it on her book, which actually made sense.

Bonus points if they straight up retcon Afrasiabis' bullshit during BfA. ^.^

Retcon what?

[Lady Atia]

I mean, yeah, but it's entirely possible the Worldcore Void stuff is gonna be saved for TLT. This is a saga after all.

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Retcon what?

Ehm, everything that raped her character and made literally 0 sense? The whole evil mustache part of that shitty expansion?

Sylvanas did what she did for the greater good, it's in her novel.

[Gurahk]

Grom Hellscream did everything he did for the greater good, you see this is true because he says "Draenor is Free!" right at the end of WoD.

[Super Dickmann]

I'd lose my shit if they did an outright Sylvanas timewalking because it would be the most utterly confusing thing in the game to the point that Cho's head would probably go Scanners on us.

The monkey's paw curls a withered finger. What to make of this?

On the one hand, what little Forsaken content there is in Midnight is dreadful, consisting of being retirees in a village run by cultists and then having their only accurate portrayal be killed on behalf of Lirath's ghost for doing the same shit we're doing. Possibly as karma for me praising him as the best of Golden's sacrificial lamb pathos characters in the review of Sylvanas's book. On the other hand, Sylvanas's portrayal in the Arator quest was easily the best thing about it and a portrayal that's about on par with the book one (i.e good, within the context of the Bald Man story). Doing an invasion of Quel'thalas without her when she's right there is ridiculous and now that Alleria's also lost it to the higher powers, a reprise of Three Sisters would be fun enough. Plus, it can advance the breaking the Shadowlands story.

So in closing, Lordaeron - fuck no, they aren't ready yet and might never be, Sylvanas - yes.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ehm, everything that raped her character and made literally 0 sense? The whole evil mustache part of that shitty expansion?

Sylvanas did what she did for the greater good, it's in her novel.

The “greater good” part is what needs to be retconned, such a motive isn’t a justication for genocide and her character really can’t be salvaged with it.

They should just make it so she was dominated over time and it came to ahead at the end of legion when she went full evil.

[Joshuaj]

Ehm, everything that raped her character and made literally 0 sense? The whole evil mustache part of that shitty expansion?

Sylvanas did what she did for the greater good, it's in her novel.

I mean, that's not really a "retcon" then. That's further exploring why she did what she did.

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The “greater good” part is what needs to be retconned, shush a motive isn’t a justication for genocide and her character really can’t be salvaged with it.

They should just make it so she was dominated over time and it came to ahead at the end of legion when she went full evil.

SL literally explains that it's not a good justification whatsoever, and that her beliefs and horrid crimes were based off a lie.

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Also, "dominated over time" makes no sense cause A. Her eyes were red the entire time she was with Zovaal (implying no Domination), and B. The moment Zovaal mentioned his true goals, she went against him.

[Ersula]

The “greater good” part is what needs to be retconned, such a motive isn’t a justication for genocide and her character really can’t be salvaged with it.

In the exact situation she was in it was. The only problem is that Sylvanas not realizing the Jailer was the mastermind behind that situation was her being really dumb. Otherwise there was no good options for the machine of death being broken. But she didn't do that, the players did.

The problem with the story is that there's one group of people that insists Sylvanas needs to be objectively good & another that needs Sylvanas to be objectively evil, but that's not really how people are. Especially not in a fantasy setting with godlike beings interfering.

[Super Dickmann]

The current lore, congruent between SL and the book is that Sylvanas did it all because she was mentally handicapped, possibly as a result of the dual head injuries of falling off of Icecrown and being domed by Godfrey. As a result, upon learning of Shadowlands she took the (merited) position, shared by anyone who played it, that it was a pile of shit. However, she also took the (unmerited) position that the man running a planar infinite bondage dungeon and attended to by demons of treachery and betrayal was the guy to fix it. Operating on this braindead reasoning and undeterred even by the time she saw his flipped Icecrown operated by the tormented husks of the forever-suffering innocent and guilty souls, she ultimately found out he was not on the level when he enslaved some people she didn't like.

When she reclaimed her lost IQ, contained in the vaults of Torghast, she committed herself to fixing the mess she caused via her extreme stupidity, but didn't regret torching the night elves, as she saw their screentime since and didn't regret killing that terrible pathos machine Zelling, because honestly, he had it coming. Most importantly, she certainly didn't regret thinking SL was shit, setting up an eventual task for her.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

SL literally explains that it's not a good justification whatsoever, and that her beliefs and horrid crimes were based off a lie.

correct it’s a horrible justification true or not which makes any further use of her character unsalvageable as she has a genocide hanging over her head.

It being a lie just makes her stupid as well.

Also, "dominated over time" makes no sense cause A. Her eyes were red the entire time she was with Zovaal (implying no Domination), and B. The moment Zovaal mentioned his true goals, she went against him.

every thing related to her working with the jailer already makes no sense as any one who’s read BTS can point out, having her eyes not changing would be far better then what we have now where her own goals and thoughts don’t match up at all.

Instead you could have it be so the Valkyre were slowly dominating her over time so she and others wouldn’t notice the drastic shift and from the end of BTS onwards she just got fully controlled until She broke free in Sod.

It would still have problems but less then now.

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In the exact situation she was in it was. The only problem is that Sylvanas not realizing the Jailer was the mastermind behind that situation was her being really dumb. Otherwise there was no good options for the machine of death being broken. But she didn't do that, the players did.

The machine of death wasn’t even broken when the jailer gave his pitch which she brought into she just didn’t like the way It worked because she let the obviously evil group show her a false manual for it that said “lol Family’s don’t get to be together” and her response was to doom countless souls to super hell to let the obviously evil guy have control instead.

The whole thing is comply incoherent.

[Ersula]

The current lore, congruent between SL and the book is that Sylvanas did it all because she was mentally handicapped, possibly as a result of the dual head injuries of falling off of Icecrown and being domed by Godfrey. As a result, upon learning of Shadowlands she took the (merited) position, shared by anyone who played it, that it was a pile of shit. However, she also took the (unmerited) position that the man running a planar infinite bondage dungeon and attended to by demons of treachery and betrayal was the guy to fix it. Operating on this braindead reasoning and undeterred even by the time she saw his flipped Icecrown operated by the tormented husks of the forever-suffering innocent and guilty souls, she ultimately found out he was not on the level when he enslaved some people she didn't like.

I have to ask what people would have done if they were in Sylvanas' position. And didn't have the priviledge of hindsight. (Which is what you're using here.)

commit genocide, where those killed become troops to help you fix the machine of death, where then everyone you killed will be reborn to a new life, is a pretty good plan. Because the alternative is everyone who is ever born will be going to hell for all eternity. Her refusing the jailer & telling everybody about it wouldn't have actually fixed anything.

As for the eye stuff and the soul shavings... I try not to think about it because it doesn't make sense & also doesn't actually change any of the larger facts of the story.

The machine of death wasn’t even broken when the jailer gave his pitch which she brought into she just didn’t like the way It worked because she let the obviously evil group show her a false manual for it that said “lol Family’s don’t get to be together” and her response was to doom countless souls to super hell to let the obviously evil guy have control instead.

Right, but she wasn't actually working for him at that point. It's not until his prophesy that the Titans would kill another Titan & break the wheel of death. How exactly do you warn the Titans not to do that? especially when they were forced to do it to stop global annihilation?

[Super Dickmann]

The machine of death wasn’t even broken when the jailer gave his pitch which she brought into she just didn’t like the way It worked because she let the obviously evil group show her a false manual for it that said “lol Family’s don’t get to be together” and her response was to doom countless souls to super hell to let the obviously evil guy have control instead.

The whole thing is comply incoherent.

In the defense of the Bald Man's honesty, the only part he lied to her about was that she was bound for hell. The bit he told her about families is obviously true, seeing as how Draka and Durotan aren't in the same place, neither is any Mograine, and even if they were, supposing one of them stubbed their toe on an underground nail and then fell down an underground flight of stairs their soul would be atomized (after it's fed sufficient anima to the machine). Similarly, once they had the levers to ZM's reality reconfiguring plot device none of the casualties to get that point would matter since it'd just get rewritten anyway.

If Sylvanas say, planned to betray the Bald Man, and had some planned way to do so, then the quality of her reasoning would starkly improve and she might one day pass 1st grade of remedial school. But as she didn't, she's merely stupid instead of entirely off-base. Re: @Ersula No one she killed would be harmed in any meaningful sense that they wouldn't already by virtue of being perma-killed and milked in the Shadowlands and all of her actions would in fact be sensible given the alternative.

Mind, you need zero hindsight to know the Bald Man is not on the level, even at the time Sylvanas is presented with him where as far as she knows he's a victim and the planar torture thing is hidden. She knows that the dreadlords work for him, she knows the dreadlords organized the Scourge and the attack on Quel'thalas. They planned for everyone there, herself included, to die and at the time of her death and meeting with the Bald Man, a dreadlord had just finished betraying her.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Right, but she wasn't actually working for him at that point. It's not until his prophesy that the Titans would kill another Titan & break the wheel of death. How exactly do you warn the Titans not to do that? especially when they were forced to do it to stop global annihilation?

The Titan thing can’t Be stopped but The obvious response should have been to ignore the obviously evil guy and start looking into other more trust worthy sources to fix the problem.

Like off the top of my head for groups to look to for help first there’s,

The Naaru
The Loa
The Death knights/lich king
Shamans
Spirits like Uther (ignoring the SL bull shit with him)

Who have all pierced the vale into the shadowlands with some even physically going there. The idea that only the jailer could look into fixing the machine of death is pure bull.

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In the defense of the Bald Man's honesty, the only part he lied to her about was that she was bound for hell. The bit he told her about families is obviously true, seeing as how Draka and Durotan aren't in the same place,

nan we know from Arsenweld that it’s not true with there being that couple who are still together post death.

I also want to say some interview said Draka could go be with Duratan later if she wanted to but I don’t care to search up shadowlands stuff to check so.

Either way we know the handful characters we see aren’t with there family’s, but that family’s can still be togather so it was just a lie.

Similarly, once they had the levers to ZM's reality reconfiguring plot device none of the casualties to get that point would matter since it'd just get rewritten anyway.

I mean this also raises the whole issue of your still you if the universe has been wiped away and remade or if your dead and it’s just something that looks and acts like you.

[Vakir]

Not if they base it on her book, which actually made sense.

Bonus points if they straight up retcon Afrasiabis' bullshit during BfA. ^.^

You'd still need to go through a ton of complicated loops to follow 1:1 Golden's book. Imagine them trying to explain the fire slug afterlife deal.

That last bit is impossible, though. They can't retcon the inciting incident for like 2+ expacs. "That burning tree just happened to show up right there, I guess." Opportunity for Nomi slander.

The monkey's paw curls a withered finger. What to make of this?

I read this in the BG3 narrator voice.

It turns out the paw wish corruption is that it is a Sylvanas lorewalking by proxy and it is, in fact, a Zovaal lorewalking.

The honeyed voice of Jim Cummings in yellow face saying "Sit down, my friend, and let me tell you the story of the most powerful, fascinating, and brilliant foe to ever threaten this world - or any other!"

[milkmustache]

I wonder if they would actually do Atal'Utek and Lordaeron in the same patch? Would that be way too much, or does the remastering of old zones part make it a bit easier?

[Vakir]

I wonder if they would actually do Atal'Utek and Lordaeron in the same patch? Would that be way too much, or does the remastering of old zones part make it a bit easier?

Utek is comparatively small, right? So it would open the door to do a split patch and raid. Maybe.

Amani snake stuff doesn't feel like it could sustain 8 bosses, hopefully a dungeon, a delve, and a 7 month waiting period until the real finale. Eugh.

They also said that we're getting Thrall in Midnight, which is both evidence for a mixed direction and also a threat at this point to a decent story.

[Sondrelk]

If Sylvanas say, planned to betray the Bald Man, and had some planned way to do so, then the quality of her reasoning would starkly improve and she might one day pass 1st grade of remedial school. But as she didn't, she's merely stupid instead of entirely off-base. Re: @Ersula No one she killed would be harmed in any meaningful sense that they wouldn't already by virtue of being perma-killed and milked in the Shadowlands and all of her actions would in fact be sensible given the alternative.

The most sensible rewrite that doesnt require a complete redo on BfA, would probably be to have her plan to betray Nipple Man and then off herself like she intended to after Arthas. And then have her suddenly gaining a conscience decide that she would rather help people, rather than be selfish yet again.

Would still make her comically evil. But also not stupid.

[Cheezits]

I mean if the Shadowlands are artificial the Jailer was correct the system is flawed, as rigid heavens and hells controlled by robots are kind of shitty versus just dying forever.

I am of the mind that the Shadowlands being "shitty" was actually on purpose, which sounds like cope on paper, but there's enough hints and lore pointing towards the rigidity of the setting to be due to some greater insidious purpose. It's just not a satisfying story to not tap into that in the expansion itself.

[Darkarath]

I wonder if they would actually do Atal'Utek and Lordaeron in the same patch? Would that be way too much, or does the remastering of old zones part make it a bit easier?

Maybe it's time to make some Roadmap 2026 bets? Surely we'll get some hints there. Because we are getting the Roadmap next week, right?