Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Xal didn't just attack the Sunwell to "go underground" I would wager. It probably has to do with the Sunwell being a direct route to the Worldsoul because it connects to the Worldsoul- otherwise she and the Host could just fly into some random cave and start digging.

Activated Black Blood from TWW + huge blast of void from the Voidspire, sent through the Sunwell, will probably be enough to break through the Worldcore or corrupt Azetoth outright. Expansions were already two years+ before, it makes sense that they thought people would remember TWW plots by the time we go back to the Worldcore. The bigger issue is if this is true, or if doing expansions like this is the right call.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Xal didn't just attack the Sunwell to "go underground" I would wager. It probably has to do with the Sunwell being a direct route to the Worldsoul because it connects to the Worldsoul- otherwise she and the Host could just fly into some random cave and start digging.

Activated Black Blood from TWW + huge blast of void from the Voidspire will probably be enough to break through the Worldcore or corrupt Azetoth outright.

A CGI Cinematic for such a scenario sounds dope and would be a real confidence booster, unfortunately we live in hell. So its' just going to be her using the leylines to get to the Worldcore with her Void army. Its' a cool concept though because at least it makes the Voidstorm and the Voidspires purpose a bit more fleshed out than just "Transportation network".

[Cheezits]

A CGI Cinematic for such a scenario sounds dope and would be a real confidence booster, unfortunately we live in hell.

Such a cutscene apparently happens after the Sunwell fight, we see them traveling underground.

[Ersula]

Xal didn't just attack the Sunwell to "go underground" I would wager. It probably has to do with the Sunwell being a direct route to the Worldsoul because it connects to the Worldsoul- otherwise she and the Host could just fly into some random cave and start digging.

Activated Black Blood from TWW + huge blast of void from the Voidspire will probably be enough to break through the Worldcore or corrupt Azetoth outright.

That's why I'm curious about that whole ritual on Karesh where the soul priest relinquishes her body & communes with the worldsoul. If getting to the worldsoul was all she needed to do, she could have just done that.

I think it's because the Sunwell was blessed with Holy energy, and the Wells all have some form of direct connection to the wouldsoul (Leylines) that she has to destroy or take over the Sunwell before she accesses the Worldsoul or else she'll just be repelled by its holy aura.

[Makorus]

I wouldn't say it's so bad it's unsalvageable as a blueprint for future expansions. The way the patches have been chopped up and shuffled around is just completely wrong.
In my mind, the pivot to K'aresh is where the story went completely off the rails. Assuming the story had continued from Undermine by going to Harandar, the story could have made perfect sense if Xal'atath gained the Black Blood as some permanent upgrade, rather than Dimensius and his vague black/purple themed power up.

Though of course. The whole trilogy containing both final battle between Light and Void, and also Titans returning to claim Azeroth is definitely one of those I don't see working. The writers claim it will lead organically into one another. But I suspect the real explanation is just going to be the Titans returning because of damage to the World Soul or some such. Which isn't really an explanation that required the Void specifically.

That's what's going to happen.

This whole "World Soul Saga" and "trilogy" rambling has just been PR speak for "Here's the next three expansions", because they are as connected as Warlords -> Legion -> BfA have been.

Some returning characters, usually not much that ties them together, not even conceptually related.

There is genuinely more connection between WoD and Legion right now than there is between TWW and Midnight. Even having a 0.7 patch in midnight where we go back to Isle of Dorn and the Earthen give us some gossip about them hearing that Odyn is doing something would suffice, but we aren't going to get anything Titan related until 12.2.7, I'll bet.

[Cheezits]

That's why I'm curious about that whole ritual on Karesh where the soul priest relinquishes her body & communes with the worldsoul.

Well that would be because Venari was literally carrying the flicker of worldsoul around (one of the dumbest pieces of wow lore ever lol) so she could physically touch it.

The Worldcore probably complicates how people can interact with the worldsoul. Even Argus was able to float freely in Antorus, albeit with a temple corrupting it.

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There is genuinely more connection between WoD and Legion right now than there is between TWW and Midnight.

This is a silly idea, considering Midnights launch is handicapped by its connections to TWW (Harandar and Voidstorm).

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I definitely just think we shouldn't be doing Sagas if the World Soul Saga is anything to go by so far, there's just no seeming urgency to get things right and you can't operate grand scope Story stuff in that way without it backsliding and covering you in mud.

But ultimately this is why escalation is dangerous, by committing to Sagas (3 Expansion announcements) it conveys that you kind of have to stick to such structuring because downscaling to 1 expansion announcement is not the best look. (even if this is the safest route using 14.0 as the reset expansion as a way to reset back to singular expansions is a good idea instead of continuing to slippery slope the Saga stuff. So pulling the ripcord on Sagas is possible with 14.0.)

[Makorus]

Well that would be because Venari was literally carrying the flicker of worldsoul around (one of the dumbest pieces of wow lore ever lol) so she could physically touch it.

The Worldcore probably complicates how people can interact with the worldsoul. Even Argus was able to float freely in Antorus, albeit with a temple corrupting it.

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This is a silly idea, considering Midnights launch is handicapped by its connections to TWW (Harandar and Voidstorm).

I mean, are Harronir *really* in TWW? If we hadn't known that it was ever supposed to be in the expansion, would you have noticed that it was cut content?

They show up like three times. Them not being in TWW would change absolutely nothing. Meanwhile, Gul'dan was incredibly important in WoD, and while dialled back a bit in Legion, still is at fault for a lot of the problems, namely everything in Suramar. You also got Khadgar as a constant thread throughout.

[Cheezits]

Meanwhile, Gul'dan was incredibly important in WoD, and while dialled back a bit in Legion, still is at fault for a lot of the problems, namely everything in Suramar. You also got Khadgar as a constant thread throughout.

Xal appears or is talked about more in TWW than Gul'dan is in WoD. They also are both one note magical villains color coded to their respective bad magic.

The main difference between them is that Gul'd ans motivation is ridiculously easy to understand while they are talking too long to explain what's up with Xal. And the longer they do, the more we get the chance of them doing something stupid (traumatized woobie xal will eat the universe so nobody can hurt her anymore!!) or revealing that she's just as one note as Gul'dan, which makes the delay in reveal confusing.

There's a tiny chance her lore is fucking insane and she's actually some prophecy god or adventurer who was given claim to Azeroth by the Naaru or something. But it's WoW so that is a very tiny chance.

Alternatively, if the First Ones truly aren't the Titans playing a trick, she could be one of them reincarnated and truly does "own" the Prime Worldsoul (with Aman'thul likely being another). But I hope that's not the case.

[Mackud]

I definitely just think we shouldn't be doing Sagas if the World Soul Saga is anything to go by so far, there's just no seeming urgency to get things right and you can't operate grand scope Story stuff in that way without it backsliding and covering you in mud.

But ultimately this is why escalation is dangerous, by committing to Sagas (3 Expansion announcements) it conveys that you kind of have to stick to such structuring because downscaling to 1 expansion announcement is not the best look. (even if this is the safest route using 14.0 as the reset expansion as a way to reset back to singular expansions is a good idea instead of continuing to slippery slope the Saga stuff. So pulling the ripcord on Sagas is possible with 14.0.)

I actually agree and agree with the narrative that WoD and MoP had better stories.

They had a simple introduction and a simple villian - Well there's this thing called the sha and it feeds on your emotions, or the introduction of each Orcish clan.

Meanwhile you had, we've some Black Blood, now we're infiltrating Goblins, now we're off to fucking space like boy has this escalated quickly.

More like throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Traumatized Xal'atath is probably not going to happen because if it does it makes lava eel vore as justification for genocide sound reasonable by comparison. I bet they are just going to get rid of her due to her hot potato status.

[Cheezits]

Meanwhile you had, we've some Black Blood, now we're infiltrating Goblins, now we're off to fucking space like boy has this escalated quickly.

More like throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks.

Isn't that a little more interesting than patch/zone villains?

I understand being frustrated that plots aren't as self-contained but this is wayyyy better than the Sylvanas/Nelf garbage that took 6-8 years to complete, or Anduin's current way-too-long plot to eventually become Varian 2. And I prefer it to Blackhand dying in a zone, Ner'zhul dying in a dungeon, etc.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm with you, best intro and best feeling delving into each zones.
I love Legion, but like SDickmann already pointed out it's all about Suramar, the rest feels weird and disconnected.
I guess MoP has a great Vanilla feeling but you're pulled in two different directions for half the campaign : goofy or grim. It's the less problematic issue that WoW has had (Cata full parody zone) but I can only enjoy MoP storytelling because I know where it goes and what to ignore or what lore comes surrounding the whole thing. Besides Wrathion used to drive a lot of the expectations in the story and has unfortunately been silenced, therefore I cannot recommend this expansion to any friend joining the game for the first time...

Mists has probably been their best attempt to mix a lighter setting with a traditional Warcraft tone. Not just because it's just blanketly better written in every aspect than DF, but structurally as well. With Pandaria the softer elements of the setting communicate the sort of idyllic existence that the crisis ends up destroying. Jhade Forest is the expansion's sell in this respect. Your presence actively corrutps the land and turns the natives (who already pluck out our troll's buddy eyes in their first appearance) from comic relief to soldiers and the same field you pick flowers and chase the bugs out of is the one you help destroy in the battle after. The goofiness doesn't completely overwhelm everything else, as in DF or Uldum and you also don't have the jarring discrepancy between how dark the subject matter is (BFA/SL) with the preschool level delivery.

What both Mists and Warlords have over every subsequent expansion is that they also don't suffer from Legion and on zone&faction apartheid. The zones and races are allowed to recur and exist together, so what you learn about pandas, hozen, mogu can be developed and further iterated upon and what affects one race in one place can affect another elsewhere, see the way the mantid and what they do recurs from Valley onwards. Warlords, despite being so unfinished similarly creates a cohesive lived in world. From Legion onwise, every zone and its reputation faction are sectioned off into their own ghetto, limiting their interaction for efficiency, which makes them all appear divorced from each other. SL is the only time it's worked and it's because they're at least intended to be disconnected pocket realms and them having no relation is the point.

DF is the nadir of this, in so far as as much as it matters the centaur, tuskarr and dragons might as well exist in separate planes of existence for all they interact. TWW tepidly connects them by bringing in the established relations of these groups, but as with most things, it's chiefly through side quests and background lore, rather than filling every part of the setting the way WoD and prior did. Midnight appears better about this, both by taking place in the old world and keeping most of the cast across, along with starring playable factions we'll actually carry forth, but it's still a long ways off from the former baseline in producing some kind of cohesive world.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Fundamentally Mists and Vanilla are such anamolies from the status quo, we're pretty far away from coherent storytelling from what people vehemently hate (WoTLK) but its a far better structure than the current "Start-Stop Base/X.1 Pivot/X.2 Continuation of A Plot".

Personally the more and more I muse over Mists of Pandaria its' more and more likely that the fact that retrospective analysis of it puts you in awe is purely all accidental even if the complete package including Shaohao's Burdens makes it seem deliberate even if it cannot be considering the ineptitude and lackluster nature of anyone in leadership caring about the lore/narrative in their decisionmaking.

[Super Dickmann]

That's exactly my point. I can understand how the "Xalatath needs us beefing with the Nerubian to fuel the blood" makes sense as a concept, and how that's a proper reason for Xal'atath to do what she did (kind of? She did try to kill us on Dalaran which would go against her plan, plus the Arathi have been fighting against the Nerubians for at least decades), but in the current retail game, the Black Blood gets mentioned like twice or three times in 11.0, and is entirely irrelevant to anything important to the main plot, which in turn means that Xal'atath brought us over to Khaz-Algar to beat her with no real payoff to her plan.

This ties into what I was going on about a bit back about how vital elements are cut off from the main plot and relegated to sidequests. The Black Blood, including said property, that it's deliberately being aggravated by violence and the nerubian extraction operations all appear in Azj'kahet - but not in the main quest. The only thing the main quest shows you is the element that never recurs and isn't explicitly connected to the Black Blood, which is Xal's ability to posssess her ascended at will, borrowing a page from a certain other Harbinger. Which also never appears again since the nerubians are evicted from the plot but I digress. These elements do actually exist in the game as is, but they're poorly communicated due to the format and then completely dropped.

As for her not killing us in Dalaran, we run away from it and the main aim is to just take out the city of mages, both to take out a major threat that solved the last invasions and also as a gift to me by removing the black hole all mages who aren't human wizards have been sucked into.

The revision of the original TWW has been to its detriment and to the loss of later expansions. It's not some huge blunder, since at the end of the day it's just produced a fairly incoherent story with working episodes, compared to such lore carfires as TBC, BFA or SL. But the rewrite itself has been pointless and they should've stuck with whatever they had on hand when they rehired Metzen, then marketed it as a saga anyway. From the overall plot to smaller things like the rewrite of the Arathi as being there for twenty odd years and the Beledar as being azerite instead of a naaru crystal is similarly nonsensical and only makes the story worse.

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These concepts are too grand, just like how Shadowlands concept that us lore/narrative fans knew it for and what Steve Danusers probable grand design of the "True" Shadowlands expansion even if again it was just Copy/Paste Kingdoms of Amalur. Ironically, our advice was to split it into 3 expansions to convey the themes and concepts that Steve wanted to convey obviously without the greater context that he just copied his homework into World of Warcraft. Guess what we ended up after the fact? Yeah.. Looks like that wouldn't have worked either.

This is genuinely the most retarded strand of criticism of Danuser. Quite obviously a writer will reuse elements and themes from prior stories he's worked on for new ones. When you hire anyone in a creative role, you look at what he's done and it's with the expectation that he'll inject his sensibilities into the material. The Nathrezim are named and work as space vampires because Metzen's vampire game failed, Starcraft and Warcraft 3 have the same plot beat for beat because the same guy, Metzen, made them. Diablo III is the same sort of hollywood archcamp as SC2 because it was made in the same period by many of the same people. When you play a Miyazaki product, you expect a traditional fantastic kingdom with existential decay as the core theme. When you watch a Michael Bay film, you expect shit to explode.

It's even more barking when applied to this. Nothing about the concepts outlined here is grand or unusual. A journey to the center of the earth, a void invasion of Quel'thalas and a recycling of the Xel'naga/Protoss conflict with the Titans are all things the franchises involved have and can do again. The writers have purposefully complicated their work relative to what they had already set up and made it worse in the process. Playing TWW straight would have been the correct choice.

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The main difference between them is that Gul'd ans motivation is ridiculously easy to understand while they are talking too long to explain what's up with Xal. And the longer they do, the more we get the chance of them doing something stupid (traumatized woobie xal will eat the universe so nobody can hurt her anymore!!) or revealing that she's just as one note as Gul'dan, which makes the delay in reveal confusing..

There is no reveal. She was reintroduced in her role as primary villain telling you she'll eat the World Soul because she's evil:

Xal'atath: The Worldsoul, so long denied me,
Xal'atath smirks at the camera, illuminated in flashes by the rotating orbs from her shoulderpads.
Xal'atath: shall be mine.

She has moved towards this goal in every patch. But you don't even need to do that, because even in Legion she tells you one of 'us' (The Old Gods, which she was obviously meant to be prior to the rewrite, given the monster mural, the references to a Fifth Old God in DF, etc. yet another casualty of the TWW rewrite) will be the one to eat the world. I am hard-pressed to think how you could make a more straightforward antagonist.

[Joshuaj]

Traumatized Xal'atath is probably not going to happen because if it does it makes lava eel vore as justification for genocide sound reasonable by comparison. I bet they are just going to get rid of her due to her hot potato status.

"Xal'atath is traumatized"

The Player Character Undead Death Knight:

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

"Xal'atath is traumatized"

The Player Character Undead Death Knight:

Well, the Death Knight players turned out alright.

This is genuinely the most retarded strand of criticism of Danuser. Quite obviously a writer will reuse elements and themes from prior stories he's worked on for new ones. When you hire anyone in a creative role, you look at what he's done and it's with the expectation that he'll inject his sensibilities into the material. The Nathrezim are named and work as space vampires because Metzen's vampire game failed, Starcraft and Warcraft 3 have the same plot beat for beat because the same guy, Metzen, made them. Diablo III is the same sort of hollywood archcamp as SC2 because it was made in the same period by many of the same people. When you play a Miyazaki product, you expect a traditional fantastic kingdom with existential decay as the core theme. When you watch a Michael Bay film, you expect shit to explode.

It's even more barking when applied to this. Nothing about the concepts outlined here is grand or unusual. A journey to the center of the earth, a void invasion of Quel'thalas and a recycling of the Xel'naga/Protoss conflict with the Titans are all things the franchises involved have and can do again. The writers have purposefully complicated their work relative to what they had already set up and made it worse in the process. Playing TWW straight would have been the correct choice.

I frankly don't really agree with it because ultimately it is just blame gaming and ultimately it refuses to go to the root cause of our current issues which again as always you could place any writer in the situation that Steve was placed in and the outcome would still be similar because its FUBAR'd.

I still do think its funny though even if I fundamentally agree with your sentiments.

[Super Dickmann]

I frankly don't really agree with it because ultimately it is just blame gaming and ultimately it refuses to go to the root cause of our current issues which again as always you could place any writer in the situation that Steve was placed in and the outcome would still be similar because its FUBAR'd.

I still do think its funny though even if I fundamentally agree with your sentiments.

It's a lot of mixing the structural for the practical. The issue isn't that Steve imported his idea of an antagonist from another game, it's that his antagonist sucked. It's not an issue that Metzen reused SC for WC3 because it worked, and it's bad that he reused it in SC2, because that sucked, etc.

On a more practical level, by far the most successful thing they've put out in terms of multimedia lately was the Alleria animated short, which incidentally was all action. It has more views than the TWW release cinematic, Dragonflight and Midnight combined.

[Joshuaj]

Well, the Death Knight players turned out alright.



I frankly don't really agree with it because ultimately it is just blame gaming and ultimately it refuses to go to the root cause of our current issues which again as always you could place any writer in the situation that Steve was placed in and the outcome would still be similar because its FUBAR'd.

I still do think its funny though even if I fundamentally agree with your sentiments.

Yeah, cause believe it or not, suffering is not an excuse to be an evil asshole...

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IF Xal'atath's doing this as a response to trauma and wanting to become stronger, then the comparison with the Undead DK Player Character would legit just be this:

Xal'atath: "I suffered, why shouldn't they?"

The Undead DK Player Character: "I suffered, and I'll to my best to help people cause of it!"

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

It's a lot of mixing the structural for the practical. The issue isn't that Steve imported his idea of an antagonist from another game, it's that his antagonist sucked. It's not an issue that Metzen reused SC for WC3 because it worked, and it's bad that he reused it in SC2, because that sucked, etc.

On a more practical level, by far the most successful thing they've put out in terms of multimedia lately was the Alleria animated short, which incidentally was all action. It has more views than the TWW release cinematic, Dragonflight and Midnight combined.

Yeah, I do think a good marketing campaign can obfuscate and keep this narrative/story issue just bubbling under the surface. Its' clear that if they do decide to throw some multimedia up before launch that we probably will be fine in these expansions even if they kind of railroaded the concepts. However, I am also piss scared that they are going to not do that.

If Action is all we need, its' not exactly hard but is the spend there or is the only thing we receive another Xal'atath launch monologue.

Yeah, cause believe it or not, suffering is not an excuse to be an evil asshole...

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IF Xal'atath's doing this as a response to trauma and wanting to become stronger, then the comparison with the Undead DK Player Character would legit just be this:

Xal'atath: "I suffered, why shouldn't they?"

The Undead DK Player Character: "I suffered, and I'll to my best to help people cause of it!"

Yes, I think the DK player conclusion is a much better framing than the opposite. Sure, in more capable hands I could see some sort of reflection on why hypothetical Xal'atath mindset idea is bad and make it profound or interesting but this is World of Warcraft and so that whole idea collapses in on itself.

Obviously for all we know Xal'atath gets too angry and does something stupid and dies or she gets defeated prior to us ever getting to this point.