Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Reive]

avaloren would have been better for 2 reasons:

1) an expansion set on the other side of azeroth would have told a more coherent story than the world scam saga. this trilogy is basically a single expansion cut in 3 parts with a bunch of filler zones/plot points padded in

2) the writers have shown over and over that they don't know how to handle the old lore. they're "better" when they create their own story

[Joshuaj]

avaloren would have been better for 2 reasons:

1) an expansion set on the other side of azeroth would have told a more coherent story than the world scam saga. this trilogy is basically a single expansion cut in 3 parts with a bunch of filler zones/plot points padded in

2) the writers have shown over and over that they don't know how to handle the old lore. they're "better" when they create their own story

We're still gonna get Avaloren...

Be patient.

[huth]

avaloren would have been better for 2 reasons:

1) an expansion set on the other side of azeroth would have told a more coherent story than the world scam saga. this trilogy is basically a single expansion cut in 3 parts with a bunch of filler zones/plot points padded in

2) the writers have shown over and over that they don't know how to handle the old lore. they're "better" when they create their own story

I'd rather they build it up more first. And WSS as a single expansion would likely have felt hella rushed.

[Ersula]

I'd rather they build it up more first. And WSS as a single expansion would likely have felt hella rushed.

True. But maybe not if they had actually had a fourth tier & season. If they wanted to fit something grand into one expansion they could have. Making a trilogy is fine too but why are they also trying to fit 3 expansion pricetags in what would normally be the duration of 2 expansions? Because we're going to be getting the pre-order for TLT at Blizzcon: When Midnight will have only been out for 6 months.

Its the same reason why I'm checked out of season 5 of Stranger Things: Because it feels like between the pacing, the allotment of episodes, the release schedule & even the casting, are more the result of a marketing strategy than a creative decision.

[Skildar]

2) the writers have shown over and over that they don't know how to handle the old lore. they're "better" when they create their own story

That's the thing though they're not better when writing new stories and elements. When you read Chronicles Vol. 1 you see that MoP is very well thought out with Shaohao and Lei shen finding their right spot within the existing story. For WoD story basing itself on old Lore as well, they've managed to shift the right elements to make it interesting and feel satisfying.

Djaradin, Primalists, Khaz'Algar Earthens, Haranir are all new but none of them feel like they belong where they are. They're all completely disconnected from the world we know, and that doesn't help the writers making them interesting, enjoyable or satisfying. Worse some cannibalise on existing people that could be developed further (i.e. Wildhammers).

That's the catch with creating new things from scratch, you've got to come up with a history for everything. The Pandaren, Mogu and Mantids would have been complete garbage if written by the team that led DF. Dragon Isles has no history except "Dragons used to live there, Primals and Aspects don't get along" whereas to sum up MoP factions lore you need 10 pages. And in a sense I feel that's why they haven't been able to deliver updates to archeology as well. MoP archeology goes quite deep into the story of this land, Shadowlands could have done something very interesting but ultimately the little lore we get for Maldraxxus questing manages to contradict itself, asking them to foolproof their story to that length is not a task they can handle.

Even if I don't enjoy most of Legions zones, Azsuna and Stornheim have a lot of lore crafted for it that makes each zone feel cohesive and let's you accept these places in the world you know. Then you take a look at Hallowfall, your eyes are pleased until they start telling you that it's been hard living here for 20 years... you've taken the time to build so many castles, cathedrals, cities, farms and towers in that short of a time frame? Where were you against Deathwing, the Legion, the Shadowlands? And with Midnight you get to ask the same questions to Haranir... What the hell were you doing when Malfurion was fighting the nightmare? What have you been doing during the events of Legion? Did you even care about Fyrakk's assault against the emerald dream? What kind of wardens are you? They're not, just nothing more than wild animals living their life.

Every elements that the writers give us as having historic value for these people that they've crafted from scratch is often something you wish they would have taken a couple more days to think about.

[GeometryWizard]

Every elements that the writers give us as having historic value for these people that they've crafted from scratch is often something you wish they would have taken a couple more days to think about.

This is one of the bigger things that bothers me about the new writing and comparing DF to MoP is the perfect example in a lot of ways. For example MoP's history is totally clear that this land has been hidden away from the rest of the world by the mists for 10,000 years but life has gone on within such as the pandaren slowly regressing into their idyllic ways aside from the Shado-Pan. Meanwhile in DF it's like they had two completely different versions of the isles happening, one where just like MoP the isles were hidden but otherwise life went on and one where they were frozen in time. So they have the cinematic where the isles appear frozen by stasis but then you get to the isles in-game and everyone acts like time has gone on like usual except the djaradin who instead of being frozen in time just went to sleep for 10,000 years and then instantly awoke the second the isles lifted. Also it means the dragonkin were just sitting in ruins in some places doing absolutely nothing that entire time

It's all so messy it's like instead of reading a finished story it's instead like reading several totally different drafts of one story all patched together and nothing ever feels like the final intended product. WoW has had that problem in the past too but it would hide it with epic rule of cool cutscenes and trailers with WoD being the perfect example but now they've abandoned all those for boring exposition dumps where a villain slowly does an evil monologue as nothing happens on screen or they show Xal'atath's feet or the heroes show how anguished and tired they look. If the Midnight cinematic was their idea of epic action then they have zero sense of it left at Blizzard because their big hype moment at the end was so confusing on a story and cinematographic angle I'd believe you if you told me they used AI to storyboard it

[Super Dickmann]

Even if I don't enjoy most of Legions zones, Azsuna and Stornheim have a lot of lore crafted for it that makes each zone feel cohesive and let's you accept these places in the world you know. Then you take a look at Hallowfall, your eyes are pleased until they start telling you that it's been hard living here for 20 years... you've taken the time to build so many castles, cathedrals, cities, farms and towers in that short of a time frame? Where were you against Deathwing, the Legion, the Shadowlands? And with Midnight you get to ask the same questions to Haranir... What the hell were you doing when Malfurion was fighting the nightmare? What have you been doing during the events of Legion? Did you even care about Fyrakk's assault against the emerald dream? What kind of wardens are you? They're not, just nothing more than wild animals living their life..

The na'vi can get their final autopsy when Midnight rolls around. As regards the Arathi, the reason they built an entire society based around maintaining the Light underground, farms, chivalric orders and cathedrals in fifteen odd years, with everyone basically being from the expedition that stranded them there is because they didn't. Much like the Iron Horde weren't designed with the intent that their entire society learned to create tanks, refine oil and create perpetual motion machines within less than five years based on what one non-engineer, Garrosh, could tell them from memory. Everything in Hallowfall visually, most of its worldbuilding and a good portion of its writing exists under the premise that they were a two-hundred something + year expedition there after a crashed naaru ship.

Were this the case, every part of their story makes sense and the most glaring issue on top of those you already covered - that nobody present can discuss their mainland in any specificity, makes perfect sense as none of them were alive to see it, hence also why they're so much more chill. This'd also allow Blizzard to worldbuild the empire by proxy by making them inspired by Hallowfall, but with some hundred years of cultural drift to justify the obvious change in assets, attitudes, etc. But you see, the naaru ship doesn't tie into the Titan story, so it must be a chunk of azerite and for it to be a chunk of azerite it must be recent to have some shambolic connection to the saga, hence the rewrite. Now what it being an azerite chunk gives to the story God only knows.

[Hitei]

2) the writers have shown over and over that they don't know how to handle the old lore. they're "better" when they create their own story

That's the thing though they're not better when writing new stories and elements. When you read Chronicles Vol. 1 you see that MoP is very well thought out with Shaohao and Lei shen finding their right spot within the existing story.

MoP archeology goes quite deep into the story of this land, Shadowlands could have done something very interesting but ultimately the little lore we get for Maldraxxus questing manages to contradict itself, asking them to foolproof their story to that length is not a task they can handle.

MoP is not well thought out. It's is similarly completely contradictive--actually no, it is much, much, much worse contradictory nonsense because the bad writing undermines its own entire central message as an expansion.

The whole central story of Mists of Pandaria makes absolutely no sense. Shaohao's story makes absolutely no sense.

The Sha are remnants of Y'shaarj who was slain eons ago when the Titans first ordered Azeroth. In other words they have been there and lurking in Pandaria since before Pandaria was even Pandaria. Before any cultures even developed there. They have always been there.

So how the fuck is Shaohao, a single man feeling deep emotions in the middle of a peaceful era, the first time they showed up in serious form? The Mogu's entire purpose was endlessly fighting wars against the Mantid and the Sha did nothing. The Mogu literally had their entire original civilization collapse because when they turned mortal they became afraid of dying and greedy and proud and angry and they openly doubted their Keeperand the Sha did literally nothing as they turned on each other and destroyed their own order and fell to infighting. Lei Shen arose as one of many warlords and conquered the entire continent and the Sha did nothing. The Mogu enslaved the whole pandaren race, treated abusively or even outright picked up and ripped in half as a form of entertainment, and apparently there was not enough doubt or fear or anger or hatred or depsair and the Sha did absolutely nothing. The Pandaren led a continent-spanning revolution and war against the Mogu and the Sha did nothing. The Zandalari led an entire invasion of the continent and the Sha did nothing.

Then two thousand years into "a peaceful time" (ignoring the fact that the Mantid cause a massive war every one hundred years that apparently the Sha just completely ignore) one emporer was out of sorts about a prophecy that the Legion would show up and that was enough to manifest all seven major Sha that apparently thousands of years of horrible conflict and torture and suffering and civil wars had not.

Which is all poorly thought up setup for the Sha having been locked away and the continent being hidden (a whole other thing), so that Pandaria was """"a totally peaceful and lovely land"""" (btw please continue to ignore that every hundred years for the past 10,000 years the Manti have waged a genocidal mass war against the rest of the continent with no Sha caring) that the mean Horde and Alliance brought war to and ruined; the initial setup of the expansion, where apparently two extremely minor naval skirmishes and one fight between a small group of Hozen and Jinyu was enough to unleash the Sha and totally ruin the land. An even more poorly thought out starting circumstance for an expansion about how fighting is bad and brings ruin to nice places (please also ignore the tens of thousands of years of bloody conflict already there)... but also you can just use violence and fighting to beat down the consequences of fighting--and please wipe out the Mantid they are barely people and it's fine to treat them with derision, slaughter them by the thousands, and the virmen, and the Yaungol, and the Hozen, and the sprites, and the Mogu--but don't attack the opposite faction that is BAD stop bringing the horrors of war to these lands!!!! Only the Pandaren's enemies are okay to kill!

Dragon Isles has no history except "Dragons used to live there, Primals and Aspects don't get along" whereas to sum up MoP factions lore you need 10 pages.

"Mogu used to live there, they enslaved everyone else until they revolted and Mantid don't get along with anyone." Did you want me to copy and paste that for 10 pages worth of text?

So much better than DF. Very well thought out. How deep and involved, just ignore that nearly every faction on the continent is just "showed up during the Age of a Hundred Kings and were enslaved or joined the Mogu".

Btw please also don't ask how the Yaungol have apparently managed to spend the past 10,000 years on the Mantid side of the wall and survived swarms without a problem, or how the fuck a giant wall is even supposed to be a barrier against a race that all have wings (especially don't ask about how apparently the the Zandalari were able to be a problem because the wall didn't work when the Zandalari had bats and flying mounts), or ask about what the deal is with Virmen who are just there. And definitely don't ask anything about the Pandaren Empire (because it basically doesn't exist outside of Shaohao's story) or Mogu Empire (if it isn't about Lei Shen or the name of a following king) or about any sort of history between any of the factions besides "we were enslaved together and fought back". And don't ask how they've managed to build and maintain Nizuao temple the past 10,000 years when it's right next to the Mantid. Remember when they gave any explanation at all about how, when or why there were apparently Hozen and Jinyu emperors? Me neither. What a deep contribution from archaeology. Remember when there was any explanation about how the Mogu were reproducing post-Curse of Flesh when there were only two female Mogu in existence before BfA? Or how covering the island in mists stopped infernals raining from the sky? Or how the Cataclysm somehow made the mists go away?

I am so tired of people whining about the last five expansions having poor writing while also fellating the first five that were written even more poorly.

comparing DF to MoP is the perfect example in a lot of ways. For example MoP's history is totally clear that this land has been hidden away from the rest of the world by the mists for 10,000 years but life has gone on within...

...everyone acts like time has gone on like usual except the djaradin who instead of being frozen in time just went to sleep for 10,000 years and then instantly awoke the second the isles lifted.

True. Remember when the Mantid totally didn't effectively hit narrative pause and completely gap for 10,000 years? Oh wait, they literally did exactly that to the point of old notable Mantid going into stasis in amber while the Empire did seemingly absolutely nothing of note in any of their past 100 generations of swarming. Well that's just the mantid, at least the Mogu--oh wait, they also just hit pause for 12,000 years between their failed counter attacks and the expansion happening. Well at least the Zandala--oh, they also just vanished from the continent for 12,000 years between their last attack and the expansion happening. Well at the very least the Sha-- oh, they also completely went dead for the entire 10,000 years between being triggered by an emperor getting mad that he couldn't land a hit in a duel and the Horde and Alliance showing up.

L-life totally went on though! You can really feeeeel how much it went on, how lived in it is; what with the Pandaren doing exactly what they were doing when Shaohao was in power, and the Hozen doing the exact same thing for the past 10,000 years since the Monkey King also happened to just go into ambe--I mean Jade stasis for that exact time period, and the Valley of Eternal Blossoms also sealed up in an explicitly unchanging state for the past 10,000 years. Man, MoP is so well written as a cohesive piece of really thought out lore. Remember when seemingly the only thing any race on the entire continent has done in the past ten millennia as a marker of progression is the Pandaren making a statue of Yu'lon? A statue that they have been remaking over and over every hundred years since Lei Shen first injured her?

Wow, so different from that flimsy centaur clan or gnoll tribe lore. Totally not like those dragonkin doing nothing for 10,000 years. People really got shit done in Pandaria's history!

[Makorus]

Like it's obvious that Blizzard has never managed a new continent well in terms of integrating it into the current lore, with the exception of Outland, I would say.

Every other continent has the problem of nothing happening and the status quo being unchanged for the last 100-1000-10000 years, and suddenly everything kicking off as we arrive. And don't get me wrong, that's just how games work. I am not going to hold it against them because nitpick culture fucking sucks. The only thing I would want Blizzard to do is realise how long a year is.

[The-Shan]

avaloren would have been better for 2 reasons:

1) an expansion set on the other side of azeroth would have told a more coherent story than the world scam saga. this trilogy is basically a single expansion cut in 3 parts with a bunch of filler zones/plot points padded in

2) the writers have shown over and over that they don't know how to handle the old lore. they're "better" when they create their own story

ah yes my favorite expansion with 9 raid tiers, like the good old days

[Hearthfinder]

Slightly unrelated and a bit of a rant, but as 20+ year player of the game, I've probably never been less hyped about the launch of a new expansion.

I'm not sure if it's just a personal thing and me perhaps outgrowing the game finally, or if the game itself is to blame.

Maybe it'll change in time for the actual launch, who knows. But right now...

- The new "continent" doesn't excite me like it should. We're not travelling to a newly discovered land somewhere far away to explore new cultures, and although I have fond memories of Quel'Thalas from the TBC launch it just doesn't feel like a very immersive zone. On the smaller side, not a lot of wildlife, and an (imo) fairly generic aesthetic. Hopefully Zul'Aman is enough to turn me around.

- No new class or major overhaul to the way I play.

- No new class/race combos except for Void Elf DH.

- No new character customisation.

- Elven transmog looks rather mid. Pretty sparse in 3D details and often low res.

- Seemingly destroying Turalyon's backstory.

- The story feels like it is repeating itself since we're yet again dealing with Xal'atath and her mysterious motives. I miss big baddies of yore.

- Housing is already out. It's great for what it is, but as a dad in my 30s, I don't have a lot of time to play. I'm looking for experiences that are short, iimpactul, and feel like an artist created them. Just faffing about for hours on end is what you do in your teens and twenties.

- No playable High Elves or Forest Trolls in sight, like come on? This is the expansion for that type of fan service.

- The announcement cinematic was, to put it midly, mediocre. They just didn't deliver on this, and while TWW had a beautiful cinematic, that now leaves us with two expansions in a row without great cinematics to rally behind. Even Shadowlands and Dragonflight had great ones by comparison, and let's not forget the timeless classics between 2004 - 2018. Smash hit after smash hit.

Ugh, I dunno. Maybe the music changes my mind once it's out.

But for the long-term, I think I will set my sights on TLT. I can't imagine they'd fumble a return to Northrend. That place feels wild, natural, and very immersive after all these years.

[Khaza-R]

Slightly unrelated and a bit of a rant, but as 20+ year player of the game, I've probably never been less hyped about the launch of a new expansion.

I'm not sure if it's just a personal thing and me perhaps outgrowing the game finally, or if the game itself is to blame.

I feel the same tbh. Nothing about Midnight looks bad per se. Unfortunately it something much worse. A expansion that feels like its perfectly fine being mediocre.

[Lady Atia]

Slightly unrelated and a bit of a rant, but as 20+ year player of the game, I've probably never been less hyped about the launch of a new expansion.

I'm not sure if it's just a personal thing and me perhaps outgrowing the game finally, or if the game itself is to blame.

Maybe it'll change in time for the actual launch, who knows. But right now...

- The new "continent" doesn't excite me like it should. We're not travelling to a newly discovered land somewhere far away to explore new cultures, and although I have fond memories of Quel'Thalas from the TBC launch it just doesn't feel like a very immersive zone. On the smaller side, not a lot of wildlife, and an (imo) fairly generic aesthetic. Hopefully Zul'Aman is enough to turn me around.

- No new class or major overhaul to the way I play.

- No new class/race combos except for Void Elf DH.

- No new character customisation.

- Elven transmog looks rather mid. Pretty sparse in 3D details and often low res.

- Seemingly destroying Turalyon's backstory.

- The story feels like it is repeating itself since we're yet again dealing with Xal'atath and her mysterious motives. I miss big baddies of yore.

- Housing is already out. It's great for what it is, but as a dad in my 30s, I don't have a lot of time to play. I'm looking for experiences that are short, iimpactul, and feel like an artist created them. Just faffing about for hours on end is what you do in your teens and twenties.

- No playable High Elves or Forest Trolls in sight, like come on? This is the expansion for that type of fan service.

- The announcement cinematic was, to put it midly, mediocre. They just didn't deliver on this, and while TWW had a beautiful cinematic, that now leaves us with two expansions in a row without great cinematics to rally behind. Even Shadowlands and Dragonflight had great ones by comparison, and let's not forget the timeless classics between 2004 - 2018. Smash hit after smash hit.

Ugh, I dunno. Maybe the music changes my mind once it's out.

But for the long-term, I think I will set my sights on TLT. I can't imagine they'd fumble a return to Northrend. That place feels wild, natural, and very immersive after all these years.

- The new continent is finally a revamp, something everyone and their mother wanted for years. Also most current players prolly started with TBC and started in QT.

- Literally every spec got overhauled, lol?

- Void Elf DH is a class/race combo and they already said they would be doing more going forward

- That's indeed a bit weird, but the new transmog system is huge

I'll skip the other points besides Forest Trolls, we really need them (and not just green noodle troll skins). We already got High Elves though.

- The cinematic was one of the best we ever had, on par with Legion/Shadowlands/Cataclysm.

[Reive]

ah yes my favorite expansion with 9 raid tiers, like the good old days

We're talking about the story here. The wss doesn't offer anything extra in terms of narrative. If anything, the faster release schedule and the disjointed patches make the story feel worse than ever

- - - Updated - - -

I feel the same tbh. Nothing about Midnight looks bad per se. Unfortunately it something much worse. A expansion that feels like its perfectly fine being mediocre.

Wow is basically fast food at this point: (fairly) popular, functional but extremely unremarkable. Wow used to have highs and lows, now it only has mids and lows. For the devs it is more profitable to release slop at a faster rate than to take time and deliver quality content.

Housing aside, midnight provides just the bare minimum and the few features it has are mostly half baked.

[Joshuaj]

I'm hyped for Midnight simply because of Quel'thalas. I always wanted to see it revamped, and now that I got to see it, I must say...

I'm happy! I smiled

[Khaza-R]

I'm hyped for Midnight simply because of Quel'thalas. I always wanted to see it revamped, and now that I got to see it, I must say...

I'm happy! I smiled

That's great. No one is saying it isn't. It also doesn't somehow detract from criticisms about the expansion.

[Hearthfinder]

- The new continent is finally a revamp, something everyone and their mother wanted for years. Also most current players prolly started with TBC and started in QT.

- Literally every spec got overhauled, lol?

- Void Elf DH is a class/race combo and they already said they would be doing more going forward

- That's indeed a bit weird, but the new transmog system is huge

I'll skip the other points besides Forest Trolls, we really need them (and not just green noodle troll skins). We already got High Elves though.

- The cinematic was one of the best we ever had, on par with Legion/Shadowlands/Cataclysm.

It's not a revamped continent though, just a zone. I'd be all for revamping EK or KA but this barely makes a dent.

And nah, I don’t think they're revamping all the specs. The new Dragonflight talents was more impactful, and Hero Talents in TWW felt impactful leading up to the expansion, even if it became a bit of a dud eventually.

But just moving some talents around, taking away a few buttons to click and so on isn't something that appeals a lot to the larger playerbase (casuals like me). It's something you might feel while playing Midnight, but it's not really exciting.

About the cinematic, I guess to each their own.

But I don't even think it looks like a Blizzard cinematic. It looks like a mediocre Elder Scrolls Online cinematic from 2015 or something.

It also completely fails at delivering the usual highlights of past WoW cinematics, such as Arthas raising his sword, Sylvanas shouting "For the Horde!", Anduin ressing everyone, Varian going "For Azeroth!" or nodding at Sylvanas, Alex swooping in to save stony guy, Grom saying "We will be conquerors!", and so on.

Part of it is the music, since it just re-uses the worldsoul theme from TWW. But it also ends way too soon, right as things are heating up.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm hyped for Midnight simply because of Quel'thalas. I always wanted to see it revamped, and now that I got to see it, I must say...

I'm happy! I smiled

Happy for you, I mean it.

[extasy]

People who say DF talents were alot of content are hilarious cus they just go on websites and copy them, most of them have literally no idea how their class talents even work.

DF my top 3 expansions gameplay and content wise, but i keep seeing that funny take

[Hearthfinder]

People who say DF talents were alot of content are hilarious cus they just go on websites and copy them, most of them have literally no idea how their class talents even work.

DF my top 3 expansions gameplay and content wise, but i keep seeing that funny take

That isn't what I'm saying, at least.

I mean more in the form of something looking fun and spectacular leading up to an expansion. Having an entirely new (classic) talent tree got you excited about all the possibilities. Similarly, Hero Talents made it seem like you were going to be able to create sub-classes, basically.

In reality, Midnight's changes may even be more fun. I'm strictly speaking about the hype factor.

[Mackud]

- Literally every spec got overhauled, lol?

Changing talents or moving about a talent tree isn't an overhaul. That's a re-balancing not an overhaul. An overhaul is where the mechanics is completely changed or a new resource system is put in place.

The literally only spec which fits that criteria is Unholy DK. 1 out of 36 isnt exactly "literally every"