Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[BaumanKing]

Hand to my heart, I may be the only person here who actually likes Alleria, or is at least fine with her.

I'd like to add that she's also one of the few most consistent characters (along with Bob). While many characters have narratively devolved into inconsistent messes or something else entirely, she's remained the same as she was in the WC2 novels (except for the Void), which is certainly an achievement on the part of Blizzard writers.

Take Tirion in Wrath for example, by all metrics an awful protagonist.

I remember back in WotLK days, Tirion was widely disliked for being a boring "literally who" guy who stole the Ashbringer from the players, reformed the Order of the Silver Hand into a neutral organization, and somehow became Arthas' main nemesis instead of Jaina and/or Sylvanas. But nowadays he's treated with so much reverence, which seems bizzare to me.

[Hitei]

Hand to my heart, I may be the only person here who actually likes Alleria, or is at least fine with her. .

I like Alleria.

[Nymrohd]

I just think she needs at least one strong action sequence. She is a magical archer. Does she have any scene that matches Sylvanas? Nope. Do you know how fucking common blond elf archer girl is? You can't swing a catgirl by the tail without hitting half a dozen of isekai with blond elf archer girl harem contenders. And I don't think Warcraft can claim to be the trope origin either, not that it matters for Alleria given how far apart her WC2 and Legion appearances are. All she does beyond archery is teleport around (and vague "I use the Void expertly" stuff that all casters do in WoW for their respective power type because the system has no real definition), the more aggressive void powers we saw briefly in Legion are barely used. And I cannot even be mad at that; they'd not even be effective against Xal most likely. Sure she got an actual win at launch content in TWW but it wasn't really that impressive as a scene. Visually she was boring to begin with and the redesign just does not resonate with me.

I don't think she is a bad character. Not sure exactly what else she could have done plotwise and she is pretty consistent. But I just don't see the appeal.

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I remember back in WotLK days, Tirion was widely disliked for being a boring "literally who" guy who stole the Ashbringer from the players, reformed the Order of the Silver Hand into a neutral organization, and somehow became Arthas' main nemesis instead of Jaina and/or Sylvanas. But nowadays he's treated with so much reverence, which seems bizzare to me.

Crowning Moment Of Awesome is a powerful trope and Tirion got multiple of those. Warcraft run on epic fantasy, no substance. Tirion and Sadfang are posterboys for that.

And can I say, there is nothing wrong with a bit of smooth brain no thoughts fan from your gaming fantasy. I've run campaigns like that on tabletop where we all agreed ahead of the time that the focus was epic fantasy and as long as I delivered the setpieces and the loot, the players ate it up. Problem is, Spectacle Creep and the Customer Expectation Gap are cruel mistresses for a story that spans over 30 years. At some point you just cannot deliver more.

[Pyrophax]

Nice read, and it makes sense. The question only remains, which of these are the "safe" bets and which are the "challenging" ones.

I wouldn't be surprised if different devs want to push their idea of a spec, and use data from survey to justify it. Also, which surveys? We had the spec survey recently, the class survey over a year ago, and who knows how many more that had no reports at all (like i don't report in the diablo surveys i get).



the call out for the mini raids in mid patches is a good call out. also the addition of labyrinths as a non-main patch feature. We might see a total paradigm shift of what belongs into which patch. Sure, things already changed a lot after SL, but we might see a greater distinction from the old patch models. Heck, we already see that somewhat in the expansion structure of the saga. I would actually welcome it if blizz would use their smaller patches for new specs to be added.

I think that aside Tinker and Bard (dunno how write this thing into Warcraft honestly) - existing classes cover almost every theoretical fantasy. All others (again, aside Tinkers and Bards) can be exposed by new class specs or Hero talents. When narrative give them opportunity to do so like DevoDH.

Who do we still missing?

Necromancers are just Unholy DK in Cloth armor. I could imagine reworking Unholy further. New 3th Hero talents row. Necromancer. Replacing FS with ranged NecroBolt, and passive for switching primal stat to Int. Akin DevoDH. We don't need even 4th spec for that. Who wants to be old Harbringer of Death can choose other hero talents. Cosmetic armor fill the role of their fantasy too. I can even see exception like Fwarriors have to be able to transmog cloth armor too.

Witch doctors are Shamans, maybe with 5th spec (4th for Earth tank for sure) or Hero talents. Spiritual magic as main fantasy.

We lack Battlemage spec for mages. Ench shaman is not quite there honestly. 4th spec or reworking arcane could be awesome.

Shadowhunters are like, Hunters? Just with Stealth. You know, thing that Hunters already have. In a form of Camouflage. Give Survival and MM hunters another hero spec and we are golden IMO if we find something to be different.

Gladiator spec for Warriors. Give it back you cowards. As 4th spec ofc.

Time mage spec

Tank Warlock spec.

Ranged monk spec.

But tinkers can't be (to my opinion) spec for Hunters or Warriors. Too niche fantasy. Better be final 15th class.

Bards just don't work in WoW IMO. Better be secondary profession. But there are examples, I can't deny that (goblin boss in Undermine or ETC from HotS, Murmur). But gameplay-wise its quite dull. What make them special enough for

[Sondrelk]

Hand to my heart, I may be the only person here who actually likes Alleria, or is at least fine with her. It may be because a neurotic who can’t properly balance her family life, who snatched the occasional W (launch) but who, even when right (K’aresh) can’t actually prevent the problem is a breath of fresh air when compared to such thoroughly boring, milquetoast protagonists as Jaina and Sadfang (BFA), Anduin and Sylvanas (SL) and everyone in DF. The biggest problem with her is that the launch content is partially from her standpoint (or worse, Anduin’s) and the end content is entirely from it. If you dislike Alleria or even don’t care about Alleria, that content is bunk.

Take Tirion in Wrath for example, by all metrics an awful protagonist. A boring motherfucker with only the most basic professional conflict with the main villain, pushing out everyone with an actually dramatic grievance either out of focus (Jaina, Sylvanas, the blood elves) or out of the game entirely (any orcish connection with Ner’zhul), leading a nonsensical hodgepodge organization of all races and beliefs larping as paladins. But unlike Alleria, the dude doesn’t even show up until the halfway point of leveling and you experience huge parts of the story, the vast majority of it with your faction and race, the natives of Northrend etc. all pushing their own goals and side-stories. He isn’t the only show in town so his problems don’t matter all that much.

She is fine. TWW is just not a very exciting expansion as a concept. And with her whole character being predicated on her desperate search for Xal'atath, which ends up going nowhere. Her character does not feel very exciting to interract with.

[Nymrohd]

I think a lot could be done with more hero talents and a few decent cosmetics and customizations. Still think the tinker concept could be moved around as tinker-themed hero talents for warrior, hunter or maybe even mage (tech mage, could be linked with fire?)

[Jolly Roger]

i feel like the hero talents can be used to make specs play more support or in the case of things like shaman a tank

[Nymrohd]

i feel like the hero talents can be used to make specs play more support or in the case of things like shaman a tank

Nah, they don't have enough meat to completely switch a role. That would end up like WoD Glad spec, limp. They cannot even fully re-theme a spec.

[Joshuaj]

I mean, there are so many things coming together to create the supposed downfall of WoW's glory days.

- Original artists and designers handing over the reins many times over the years. Heck, some of them are still there but got older and shifted their mindsets.

- Different ownership.

- New era, as society is literally in a different place from 2006 and even 2016.

- Shifting audiences.

- New IPs coming in to compete, both internal and external.

That probably explains a feeling of something familiar gradually becoming unrecognisable (Lich King to Shadowlands, or cinematic style of WoD vs Dragonflight).

But for Midnight in particular, I think we all expected a big Midnight because TWW felt rushed, Quel'Thalas is a major location, and Metzen is back.

Only problem is: does Midnight feel disappointing in some ways because of Blizzard having changed, or because it, too, is a stepping-stone towards TLT and whatever comes after?

TLT does seem like the Metzenified version of the story they were going to tell in TWW.

"TLT will be the big expansion guys! I promise! This time, Metzen's vision will truly shine!"

lol

lmao even

[Lady Atia]

Nah, they don't have enough meat to completely switch a role. That would end up like WoD Glad spec, limp. They cannot even fully re-theme a spec.

Also we know from the surveys that they literally just plan to do fourth specs for (atleast some) classes. Which is simpler to do than having some "neither x nor y but druid" hero specs that switch roles kekW.

[Capivara]

But for Midnight in particular, I think we all expected a big Midnight because TWW felt rushed, Quel'Thalas is a major location, and Metzen is back.

Only problem is: does Midnight feel disappointing in some ways because of Blizzard having changed, or because it, too, is a stepping-stone towards TLT and whatever comes after?

TLT does seem like the Metzenified version of the story they were going to tell in TWW.

as Metzen came back, a good chunck of the work in TWW was done, and if i'm not mistaken they work 2 expansions ahead, in different levels of work.

he actually may have sliced the original TWW giving half of it to midnight, maybe midnight was originally the last patch of the oringinal TWW, that turned into an expansion.

IF things were like this, TLT is the expansion where the oldschool warcraft vibe will really hit, but IMO we will only fell the real difference in blizzcon when they announce "the next 20 years of warcraft" IF they announce anything at all, maybe just the path they would like to take only.

[Hearthfinder]

"TLT will be the big expansion guys! I promise! This time, Metzen's vision will truly shine!"

lol

lmao even

I know, and that's what I'm afraid of. Being baited again. Because Midnight did feel like it was going to bring the thunder.

[Cheezits]

I think Blizzcon will have the following:

-12.2 theme- Lordaeron/Light

-Next saga announcement for retail OR only one expansion, but it has a good hook (world revamp, character customization feature, etc). Azshara theme?

-Classic+: entirely separate development team on par with retail. Will be getting different expansions but only after Wrath

-Retail and Classic+ get entirely different names. Maybe rebranded to Warcraft and Warcraft (Something?). They will insist that both teams will get equal development.

-Warcraft show or movie based on Arthas.

[Hearthfinder]

as Metzen came back, a good chunck of the work in TWW was done, and if i'm not mistaken they work 2 expansions ahead, in different levels of work.

he actually may have sliced the original TWW giving half of it to midnight, maybe midnight was originally the last patch of the oringinal TWW, that turned into an expansion.

IF things were like this, TLT is the expansion where the oldschool warcraft vibe will really hit, but IMO we will only fell the real difference in blizzcon when they announce "the next 20 years of warcraft" IF they announce anything at all, maybe just the path they would like to take only.

I know people don't give a lot of credence to that outsourced "inspirational" concept art from before TWW, but if they are to be believed then TWW was meant to contain:

Bug zone
Underground halls of stone zone
Glowing medieval buildings zone with flying airships
Glowing mushroom zones
Underwater crystal area + a special crystal
Dead old gods and titans + some trapped in crystal
Sleeping female Titan

It seems like a safe bet to assume the Undersea was scrapped, unless brought back later in TWW. Same for Beledar and any potential reborn Old Gods.

But the glowing mushroom zone was clearly Harandar and everything else has been seen in Khaz Algar - with the notable exception of a sleeping female Titan.

Basically every patch except maybe Undermine felt like a late addition in TWW, and every Midnight zone feels like a shortcut as well (whether it's the generic Voidstorm, the remade Quel'Thalas, or the saved-from-TWW Harandar). I guess Zul'Aman is fresh.

But TLT will really have to connect everything together neatly. Now it just remains to be seen if they merely postponed an original ending to TWW, like going down into the Worldcore or whatever, or if they're doing something entirely different.

[milkmustache]

-Classic+: entirely separate development team on par with retail. Will be getting different expansions but only after Wrath.

I don't know if this is a hot take or not, but Classic+ shouldn't do BC or Wrath IMO. Straight from the gate vanilla.

[Capivara]

It seems like a safe bet to assume the Undersea was scrapped, unless brought back later in TWW. Same for Beledar and any potential reborn Old Gods.

But the glowing mushroom zone was clearly Harandar and everything else has been seen in Khaz Algar - with the notable exception of a sleeping female Titan.

Basically every patch except maybe Undermine felt like a late addition in TWW, and every Midnight zone feels like a shortcut as well (whether it's the generic Voidstorm, the remade Quel'Thalas, or the saved-from-TWW Harandar). I guess Zul'Aman is fresh.

But TLT will really have to connect everything together neatly. Now it just remains to be seen if they merely postponed an original ending to TWW, like going down into the Worldcore or whatever, or if they're doing something entirely different.

i can bet you that the sleeping female titan will be azeroth and we protecting in one of the last raids in TLT, i can feel it lol

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I know, and that's what I'm afraid of. Being baited again. Because Midnight did feel like it was going to bring the thunder.

If I had money every time the same handful of MMO-C posters share this sentiment for every expansion in the last 7 years, I'd have a decent amount of cheddar in the bank.

This website cannot help themselves. Especially these pre-expansion threads that a lot of posters live in 24/7.

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-Warcraft show or movie based on Arthas.

Is there like... something that indirectly came out that even more so indirectly references a new TV show and/or movie for Warcraft? Or is this more just wishful copium that people are sharing publicly? I ask, because this isn't the first time I've read somebody hoping for an announcement of this.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Even Warhammer has stayed relevant and successful without abandoning its tone or factions

this is very much so not the case.

Warhammer fantasy has hit a resurgence now a days largely thanks to the total war games but it not only failed to stay relevant or successful it flat out died because it wasn’t doing well enough and game works shop felt they needed to change up the tone which lead to the end times and then age of Sigmar where almost all of the factions were thrown out for completely new ones that only resembled the fantasy world in the vaguest sense.

The ild world has only recently returned again thanks almost entirely to total war.

[Jolly Roger]

as Metzen came back, a good chunck of the work in TWW was done, and if i'm not mistaken they work 2 expansions ahead, in different levels of work.

he actually may have sliced the original TWW giving half of it to midnight, maybe midnight was originally the last patch of the oringinal TWW, that turned into an expansion.

IF things were like this, TLT is the expansion where the oldschool warcraft vibe will really hit, but IMO we will only fell the real difference in blizzcon when they announce "the next 20 years of warcraft" IF they announce anything at all, maybe just the path they would like to take only.

in an interview they already covered where his work started

undermine was gonna just be a dungeon

so everything since 11.1 has been metzen

[micwini]

in an interview they already covered where his work started

undermine was gonna just be a dungeon

so everything since 11.1 has been metzen

Do you have a link to this interview? Im interested.