Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Eldryth]

The Light and Titans both have one and only path that they see as correct (which may or may not be the same potential future). Maybe Xal'atath's home was destroyed by one of them, rather than the Void, for not fitting into their plans- which would make whatever the Void did to her in that video a twisted way of saving her rather than the cause of the destruction. That'd make Xal'atath's view on survival more understandable- making her Void (now that the Void Lords are gone) outcasts banding together and choosing a dark path to survive the other forces trying to destroy them- much like the Horde were at the start of WoW.

Given that we know that this story is leading towards a grand Titan conspiracy in a Titan-centric expansion, I'd guess that they were involved if the story goes that route- with the Titans turning on us just like they destroyed her world. Maybe Xal'atath's people were even destroyed for being "heretics" for worshipping a sun god rather than the Pantheon, which could tie in with An'she supposedly being important in TLT, and fit with Odyn's stance on Avaloren's heretics.


Of course, this is all assuming Xal'atath isn't just flat-out lying, but I think it's fair to assume there's at least some truth to it- even if it's just a misleading half-truth. That's the kind of deception Xal'atath tends to use, and it's far better for storytelling than having everything we learn here be fake.

[Cheezits]

Xal and Zovaal being ahead of the curve on the shit the Titans and Light are pulling is genuinely good storytelling- but it's not satisfying. Because how could we know? It makes sense to us lore autists, but most normal people aren't going to pick up on the funky bits of Shadowlands (borderline hidden lore that points to the Shadowlands as we know it being a Titan intervention) and onward. I don't think the "Tyrhold/Uldorus is forcefeeding compliance" bit was even in the game at all.

It's a good, genuinely curious plot. But they should make it overt instead of treating the playerbase with kids gloves because they think people will explode if it's revealed we were following the orders of bad guys all along. (Which is not what the Titans are doing, IMO. They aren't evil- they just think forced compliance is the best tract for peace. But most normal people will see their actions as cruel.)

The endgame for Azeroth is no kings- only man. Rejecting the influence of all the gods, be them Death, Void or Order. Freedom is hard to argue against. We just need to know what caused all these forces to be so assertive- and I hope to god its not some kind of Yuuzhan Vong equivalent.

I actually think Zovaal's story will be seen WAY more positively if it's revealed he knew the Titans concocted the Shadowlands for some kind of Titan experiment and just rebelled out of anger and feelings of injustice- but do we really need to have that reveal delayed by 6-8 years, when the titans aren't even around???

It's more likely the devs aren't even thinking of this- because they are just normal people. They love Warcraft, but they don't think about this game as much as we do. They just make a video game. They don't think about what makes a good story, they just want to feed their yaps.

ANYWAYS the tl;dr version is I think the WoW team has some great longterm plots in mind but they need to rethink what makes a satisfactory standalone expansion story, especially as Americans rethink the longevity of their luxuries.

[Nymrohd]

Why does it need to be a child? It is an alien race, maybe they are just short.

[Merryck]

Again, skeptical. I just don't think Warcraft Teams Narrative Team thought of this that much. But, obviously since they are mostly just throwing mystery boxes at our feet we can play along even if it amounts to nothing.

You can't deny Danuser had a vision. He had a plan and thought about and cared about these details. Listen to his interviews, you'll see. Even though I didn't always agree with his vision, I'd rather a consistent narrative than the mess we have now.

Bring my boy back.

[Reive]

Why does it need to be a child? It is an alien race, maybe they are just short.

You can see the corpses of adults around her

[Nymrohd]

You can see the corpses of adults around her

Oh god so she is yet another precocious child. Young Adult is a pox upon writing.

[Merryck]

Oh god so she is yet another precocious child. Young Adult is a pox upon writing.

She's hundreds of millennia old.

[Jaggler]

She's hundreds of millennia old.

But she was a child once! Terrible storytelling. /s

[Super Dickmann]

As I said way back when mention of her backstory came out from the beta, it's largely unnecessary. Her original backstory, i.e that she was the Fifth Old God that was eaten by the others was fine. It fit her naming convention (like Garrosh's axe), her comments ("Only one of us will be left to devour the world") etc. and there was even an in-built motive, if she wanted to keep them on track to devour the world and usher in their respective Void Lords whereas they preferred to rule. Making her the Silver Surfer to Dimensius's Galactus pretty much mandated her to be a person as well, and I can see why Blizzard would want it for the Alleria parallels, but it doesn't add anything to the character.

What does add something to her character is actually Salhadaar, because Blizzard's inconsistency instead works out as unintentional subtle storytelling. Back in TBC he was trying to hunt down and kill Dimensius and the void was his tool. Then, on K'aresh he's his slave. In the short story, he's committed to fighting Dimensius until, seemingly for no reason, he declares himself king and hunts Locus-Walker and the Ravel down. Taking just the story and the last patch, the assumption would be that he sold out to Dimensius and his TBC appearance was just cover. But with the benefit of how he acts here, what's more plausible is that after Xal fed Locus-Walker the idea of blowing up the planet to stop Dimensius, she then leaked this to Salhadaar, who was genuinely acting against them to try and save it. This created the pressure on LW to go through with it, blowing up the planet. The reason Salhadaar is a one-note dick in Manaforge is because, like we learn about the fodder ethereals involved, he's brainwashed and may have been since he lowered the shields. It's why he's horrified when Xal takes him up and now fights her. It's also why her pitch in this story actually works - because it worked once before when he tried to stop Locus-Walker.

Peel away thoughts of bald children and the Bald Man, difficult though it is. What is Xal's actual pitch? She isn't saying she's doing it for the greater good, it's basically an overwrought way to threaten him that if he runs from her, he'll die anyway, but if he joins up, he might live. She couldn't do anything when tentacles came to turn her into an ash baby and if he goes to K'aresh, nothing will stop her from coming back and eating him. Salhadaar takes the deal because he already did this before, and she knows he did, because she played all of them in the first place, first by preventing Dimensius from eating the world soul by getting Locus-Walker to blow the planet up, then using their enmity when she came back in TWW to take that power for herself and now to enlist him. It's the kind of comically elaborate scheming that if Blizzard insists on doing these master planner 'all according to keikaku' baddies, they need to do a lot more of.

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Why does it need to be a child? It is an alien race, maybe they are just short.

The story is darker if she was already fully bald at age 8 than if she was a bald midget.

[Xilurm]

There's no deeper meaning to it. I don't know why everyone keeps thinking that.

Xal'atath wants ultimate power, if she has it then she will be the most powerful being in the cosmos and nothing can threaten her again, not another Dimensius or anything else that might be out there.

[Alanar]

But she was a child once! Terrible storytelling. /s

Idk what the point of that is really, but!

Playing the mystery card villain is such a great way to attract players! Such a underused story tool.

/sarcasme off.

[Super Dickmann]

It’s only worse for them to join SW (lore wise not anduin wise) if we forget the forsaken exist which have the exact same ties to the Trollbanes as the humans of stormwind and along with the blood elfs are on stolen troll land which was the Amani’s main focus while stormwind is on zero troll land and even the Arthai are on land they hadn’t held since before the Sundering.

There’s zero way to justify them joining the horde that wouldn’t also apply them joining the alliance as both are completely hand waving the Amani’s main grievance so if there going to go one way they might as well go both.

@Nymrohd as well

There are two factions in this game. One of them, popularly known as the Horde, has two playable troll races already in it, one of which the Amani were a client/ally of for much of their history, the other of which has 'Vengeance for Zul'jin' as an on-click quote. On the non-playable side, it also already has forest trolls in the Revantusk , who were part of the Amani Empire and even recaptured a city named after a big Amani warlord in Cataclysm. We know the Amani can work with the Horde, because they already did in WC2 and were in the game before any of the others referenced were made.

The other, known as the Alliance, has none of the above and is run by the historic ethnic enemies of the trolls. The only Forsaken Trollbane is dead and broke from the faction, the living Trollbanes still run Stromgarde.

You don't need to convince me that a milennia-old irreconcilable race war resolving over the aforementioned Liadrin-nanny business is stupid. I've banged on about it for months now and it's why the Amani story should've been lead by the Horde troll races bringing them in, counter to the blood elf interest, resulting in some intra-faction tension. Force would prevent them from killing each other, not some handshaking. But the solution to the ZA plot being shit isn't to make it even worse. As universally putrid as it is, at least the Liadrin handshake business exists and the interaction happens. Not only do the Amani have no connection except war with any of the Alliance races up to Midnight, up to that one redneck scalping Zul'jin, they don't have any in Midnight either, unless you count Turalyon trying to execute one of their chiefs. Neutral Amani make zero story sense, have no gameplay benefit as again, all endgame content is shared anyway, and aren't even desirable to the Alliance, much like as few people wanted Earthen even fewer of them were Horde.

Now, if you were going to make the case that the Blood Elf issue is so irreconcilable to the Amani that the route Blizzard should have gone is that they'd ditch their grievances with humanity if it meant getting back at Quel'thalas, Alliance-exclusive trolls, if you will, then you've got my attention.

[Alanar]

There's no deeper meaning to it. I don't know why everyone keeps thinking that.

Not everyone tho.

Personally, I never understood why people keep thinking this with every storyline. Realistically Its always the obvious thing, with no twist or secret meanings.

[Super Dickmann]

There's no deeper meaning to it. I don't know why everyone keeps thinking that.

Xal'atath wants ultimate power, if she has it then she will be the most powerful being in the cosmos and nothing can threaten her again, not another Dimensius or anything else that might be out there.

N'zoth had more of a vaguely altruistic pitch than she did. 'Only I can save you from participating in Shadowlands burning in hell in the Maw and having the worldsoul be used to power the engines of the Mega-Devil." When you ignore the melting bald child for a second, what Xal'atath is basically saying in so many words is 'You can't run, if you do, I'll kill you'.

The writers have had endless chances to go 'nuh uh, she's just misunderstood' and have taken none of them. If Deathwing were the villain today, people would be rending their clothes thinking that him moping to Thrall in that short story is leading up to a redemption.

[Hitei]

it doesn't add anything to the character.

It adds sustainability and flexibility. Old gods are one note, they exist for a single reason and relentlessly pursue that purpose. Void Lords are the same. This was telegraphed already, on K'aresh, with her "the Void doesn't transform, it consumes" line.

Because she, like the Ethereals is someone who became Void rather than something innately Void, and being driven by survival rather than just raw hunger affords her the flexibility to stick around, to cut losses and retreat, to make deals, to win against us and not have the universe implode because maybe she just plans on securing the Void's existence rather than turning all of reality Void.

[Count Zero]

There's no deeper meaning to it. I don't know why everyone keeps thinking that.

Xal'atath wants ultimate power, if she has it then she will be the most powerful being in the cosmos and nothing can threaten her again, not another Dimensius or anything else that might be out there.

Even assuming it won't be as intricate as we'd like, there is still stuff to uncover there: primarily, how did she go from mortal to (member then leader) of the Void. I really hope they don't just leave it at telling us the Void has societies / hierarchies but then don't explore all that before closing that thread.

[Hitei]

N'zoth had more of a vaguely altruistic pitch than she did. 'Only I can save you from participating in Shadowlands burning in hell in the Maw and having the worldsoul be used to power the engines of the Mega-Devil." When you ignore the melting bald child for a second, what Xal'atath is basically saying in so many words is 'You can't run, if you do, I'll kill you'.

You mean Zovaal?

I think you are misrepresenting her offer. Which is "You can run. You can flee this particular battle and end up fighting again somewhere else and continuing to resist, but really, we are on the same side. We were both forcibly adopted into this same group and I am going to make sure this group won't lose or might even win. So climb aboard or flee down the tracks and continue to stand in front of the train."

[Super Dickmann]

It adds sustainability and flexibility. Old gods are one note, they exist for a single reason and relentlessly pursue that purpose. Void Lords are the same. This was telegraphed already, on K'aresh, with her "the Void doesn't transform, it consumes" line.

Because she, like the Ethereals is someone who became Void rather than something innately Void, and being driven by survival rather than just raw hunger affords her the flexibility to stick around, to cut losses and retreat, to make deals, to win against us and not have the universe implode because maybe she just plans on securing the Void's existence rather than turning all of reality Void.

Her army is literally called the Devouring Host and her goal is to eat the World Soul. Retreating, planning and subverting has been the Old God MO since Day 1. A big part of Chronicle is Yogg playing all the neurotic keepers against each other, up to and including getting Loken to bang Thorim's wife to bring about their collapse. N'zoth's pitch to Azshara, if different in cadence, is the same kind of temptation/partnership scenario Xal'atath does with Salhadaar here, hell, it's more genuine due to the power dynamic,

[Skildar]

Now, if you were going to make the case that the Blood Elf issue is so irreconcilable to the Amani that the route Blizzard should have gone is that they'd ditch their grievances with humanity if it meant getting back at Quel'thalas, Alliance-exclusive trolls, if you will, then you've got my attention.

I mean it's not unhealthy storytelling to have us play the bad guys either as representative of the Blood Elves or Void/High Elves and purposefully keep the Amani weakened as we use their forces to cleanse the land.

As the Elves are imperialists who have suffered losses through many campaigns (W3TFT, TBC, MoP, WoD, Legion, BfA) and canonically have had their lands and capital city ravaged by undead plague even after the events of Shadowlands, I wouldn't expect them not to be belligerents when it concerns the security of their land.

[Super Dickmann]

You mean Zovaal?

I think you are misrepresenting her offer. Which is "You can run. You can flee this particular battle and end up fighting again somewhere else and continuing to resist, but really, we are on the same side. We were both forcibly adopted into this same group and I am going to make sure this group won't lose or might even win. So climb aboard or flee down the tracks and continue to stand in front of the train."

No, N'zoth. N'zoth is aware and shows you that Sylvanas made a deal with Azshara, then, post-vision, he tells you:

N'Zoth the Corruptor yells: Only I can save this world. Yield... and serve!

Before that, he flat out tells you the plot of Shadowlands and how it'll kick off, as well as the Maw:

N'Zoth whispers: The veil wanes. His crown will open the way.
N'Zoth whispers: I alone can save you from what is to come.
N'Zoth whispers: It grows hungrier... bolder. Alas, your eyes are closed.

As for her pitch, yes, but it's completely disingenuous. All of the knife's users, Ansurek, Gallywix, Locus-Walker, Dimensius, etc. etc. can attest to it. The Void is about egotism, there is no collective pitch. It's an appeal to temporary mutual interest. In Salhadaar's case it ends with him strapped to a bondage device in the raid.

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I mean it's not unhealthy storytelling to have us play the bad guys either as representative of the Blood Elves or Void/High Elves and purposefully keep the Amani weakened as we use their forces to cleanse the land.

As the Elves are imperialists who have suffered losses through many campaigns (W3TFT, TBC, MoP, WoD, Legion, BfA) and canonically have had their lands and capital city ravaged by undead plague even after the events of Shadowlands, I wouldn't expect them not to be belligerents when it concerns the security of their land.

Oh, sure, the Blood Elves co-opting the Amani as a proxy to fight the void under feigned support makes perfect sense, especially as the last time they were almost destroyed during the Scourge Invasion, Zul'jin took the chance to attack and almost wipe them out. But that's not the framing of the plot. Liadrin is cast as well-meaning, but ignorant, and the Amani effectively disavow their own fight against them via disavowing Zul'jin, who in turn, due to how the relationship with the loa is presented, is fairly justified, as apparently their own guardian gods can't be bothered to get involved on their behalf when they obviously did in the Troll Wars.