Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[GeometryWizard]

Gina isn't on the MoP box, Chen is. Chen who spends the entire first part of the expansion doing almost nothing, fighting once (after spending his time trying to get a brewery back in working order while the Sha, Mantid, Mogu and Yaungol are running rampant), then makes a guest appearances in 5.3 for 10 seconds before he and the august celestials go have a casual hangout on Timeless Isle while Garrosh strip mines the most sacred valley on the continent. Where was Chen in MSV? The fight against the Mantid? The Isle of Thunder? The Siege of Ogrimmar?

Now you're jumping to box art that isn't done in the same style as modern expansion key art and all it's doing is proving my point further because how bad is it that Chen's short appearance in 5.3 is still more story screentime than everyone in the TWW key art gets after launch except Alleria and that even includes the generic faction soldiers and nerubians unless you're going to argue Nightfall had an ounce of plot progression. That's not even getting into the numerous other characters that remain engaged throughout the story like Varian, Vol'jin, Garrosh, Jaina, Taran-Zhu, Lor'themar, Anduin, Wrathion, etc. the list goes on and the factions they are a part of, Alliance, Horde, Shado-pan, etc.

I'll repeat it a final time for you. TWW is a bunch of completely disconnected stories most of which revolve around dropped plot threads after launch. The Khaz Algar factions show up to Siren Isle which has no actual plot only worldbuilding for the dropped plot thread of the Beledar and then never appear again. Undermine has no relation to Khaz Algar since the Black Blood plot got dropped leaving Orweyna as a pointless cameo and Gazlowe who never shows up again after this either because the finale patch of TWW is so disconnected from everything else that the opening lines of the patch are lampshading how it has nothing to do with the rest of the expansion. Other than that you have Faerin who showed up again for one minor patch story that broke the trend of .7 patches being prologues for the next patch because the Red Dawn story has nothing to do with K'aresh and Jaina/Khadgar in the brief Kirin Tor epilogue to another launch patch plot thread

Then you get to Midnight and the Alliance and Horde that previously mobilized en masse to stop Xal'atath and know she's still on the loose are not only completely absent from defending another city under attack by her that is one of their own capitals now but are only seen hanging out in a tavern and telling you how nice and peaceful things are and sending you to do errands for them that'll make them nostalgic. You say the August Celestials are chilling and doing nothing but they are at least offering a trial of combat as part of the Wrathion cloak questline which is to make you stronger to defeat Garrosh, meanwhile the two largest military superpowers of the world who just rallied an army to defeat Xal'atath are not only totally absent from fighting her again when she is attacking them directly but are explicitly shown hanging out and doing nothing in a tavern and telling you how great these peaceful times are. These aren't all just randoms you have the king of Stromgarde, several orc clan leaders, etc. There is no other faction presence in Midnight to show this as an exception and is likely to be further stressed in the max level story because you have to go ask the night elves and nightborne then to actually do something since the rest of the factions aren't lifting a finger like they don't even exist anymore

You bring up one hero not doing enough in MoP throughout the entire expansion while I bring up TWW only having one hero that does anything throughout the entire expansion. You bring up the August Celestials who are not massively important and I'm bringing up the factions who are one of the largest parts of the entire setting that have been proactive against every external threat they faced in the plot to date now doing nothing against the villain they were fighting literally one expansion ago who is now doing the exact same thing she did before to warrant a massive response and doing it to one of their own cities at that. MoP is not perfect as no story is but TWW and Midnight have it way worse in this regard. They wanted a story about Light vs. Void and all elves uniting and so the entire rest of the factions might as well not exist in their eyes even though they have more reason than TWW to mobilize and fight

Remember when the Argents mobilized and then decided to take a break and build an entire venue to host a jousting tournament, complete with refreshment stands, merchant stalls and food vendors in a supposedly hostile landscape surrounded by an enemy that does not sleep or rest or ever relent? And when the Kirin Tor did not bother helping with anything after their fight against the Blues? And when Sylvanas and Jaina just didn't show up in ICC and Alexstrasza and the red flight for some reason decided it was cool to just not help at all in facing the Lich King? And an entire wing of the final raid tier was dedicated to Futurama jokes and giant undead dogs wearing pink bows.

Wow, I sure do wish Holly would stop ruining the gravitas of threats with her totally new and never seen before coziness.

Who are you talking to? I never mentioned Wrath directly or indirectly. We are talking about MoP which is a newer expansion than Wrath. If the argument you're trying to make is that the story ever failing at something at any point in the game's history means you can never criticize the current story failing just as bad or even worse in the same regard then we might as well not even discuss further

[Sondrelk]

People say that SL did huge damage to Warcraft lore, but i would say BfA wasprobably the expansion where Blizzard really destroyed many story opportunites.

Both Zandalar and Kul Tiras could have easily been their own expansions, but now both were introduced during an inane faction war story that did maximum permanent damage to both factions to the point that Blizz basically abandoned that core pillar of the story. Then they moved on to Nazjatar and Azshara which, again could have been it's own expansion and then we got N'zoth who as a villain would also be deserving of his own expansion.

Don't think Kul Tiras and Zandalar could have carried an expansion each. But definitely more than what they did.

For me, the biggest damage it did was not wasted storylines, so much as making both factions complete idiots. The Horde for being the aggressors for an evil warmonger for a third time. And the Alliance for needing to be moral paragons of goodness and light to justify not forcibly breaking them up for their own sake if nothing else.

Still so incredibly mad at BfA. So many good ideas and concepts ruined. It even took most of the good stuff away from a Southern Seas exploration expansion. Which was my favorite expansion concept.

[Skildar]

When N'zoth was making a deal, he was offering something specific. Xal just vaguely promises power. We can see Xal's deals with e.g. Mogdud and N'zoth's with Azshara & Neltharion.

I would argue that N'Zoth scheming is as bad as Xal'Atath and unfortunately no character was ever able to bargain much in the game story (only Azshara managed to trick the player). I guess the Prestor family remains the most successful at being crafty, which says a lot.

But it is impressive how empty Xal'Atath's dialogues are, especially in this latest short video. It makes Saladhaar look like an utter moron... and it is so weird because they could have gone for something truly disturbing, showing how she can twist their mind making them lose sight of what they're fighting for, etc. The animated short is a great medium for that. They were clearly attempting something akin to this for the CGI trailer, with Lor'themat doubting the resolve of Liadrin but it unfortunately fell flat. I remember watching it with friends and nobody understood what Blizzard was going for.

The Shadowlands animated shorts were very bland if not bad and this one is in the same vein. Written in a hurry with no substance, punctuated by the most cliche jumpscare (the scream made me think of a old video where you were asked to stare at a sheep until a horror pictured appeared with a shriek). The fact that it's impossible by lore enthusiasts to place on a timeline when this sequence happens is the cherry on top.

I guess at some point it is our fault for playing other games and reading books...

[Lorgar Aurelian]

We will get playable big trolls, just not from Zul'Aman. We will get the Drakkari for The Last Titan while Alliance players get Vrykul XD

This would legit be the better way to do it as the Drakkari have none of the elf baggage and any survivors are indebted to the Zandalari for saving there Loa.

[Nymrohd]

This would legit be the better way to do it as the Drakkari have none of the elf baggage and any survivors are indebted to the Zandalari for saving there Loa.

Or, they could just bring the Hinterlands Revantusk back.

[milkmustache]

Or, they could just bring the Hinterlands Revantusk back.

I'm actually surprised they didn't lump the Hinterlands into the expansion (shoutout Northeron speculation era). You'd think with all the updated dwarven assets from TWW, it'd have fit perfectly. It's not like TWW used the dwarves past 11.0.7 anyway, so I doubt there'd be fatigue.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Or, they could just bring the Hinterlands Revantusk back.

That to but with them going out of there way to distance them from the main Amani it seems less likely.

[Nymrohd]

I'm actually surprised they didn't lump the Hinterlands into the expansion (shoutout Northeron speculation era). You'd think with all the updated dwarven assets from TWW, it'd have fit perfectly. It's not like TWW used the dwarves past 11.0.7 anyway, so I doubt there'd be fatigue.

I was hoping for a revamped zone that included EPL & Hinterlands (and maybe WPL). Honestly thought WPL & EPL work well and then you open Stratholme Bay, Scarlet Monastery and Hearthglen and connect them through a coastal minizone. But the High Elf area exactly where Stratholme Bay should be effectively kills a chance for that. As for Hinterlands, it is such an outlier as a zone. But having some continuity between the Forest Troll tribes from Zul'aman to Jintha'alor to the Arathi holdings made sense to me and it could be done by joining the coast and maybe adding some islands there; on the few maps we have of Tyr's Bay, there are islands in the area and they could serve as Forest Troll areas that connect them across the east coast of the continent.

[Hitei]

Who are you talking to? I never mentioned Wrath directly or indirectly. We are talking about MoP which is a newer expansion than Wrath. If the argument you're trying to make is that the story ever failing at something at any point in the game's history means you can never criticize the current story failing just as bad or even worse in the same regard then we might as well not even discuss further

No one said you can never criticize, Strawman McStrawmanson. But do you know what """criticism""" immediately falls apart when you take the 10 seconds to notice that it's something that has been happening for 20 years?

that's the main story problem that the cozycore problem presents being just criticizing cozycore itself is that it makes it harder and harder to take the supposed gravitas and scope of your story seriously when you make an entire hub of like every named character that isn't a faction leader just chilling out and taking it easy. I think there's a non-zero chance under the current direction of Holly's leadership that the story basically stops after TLT and they do very loose 'stories' that are very easy to sell cosmetics and such that have no connection to Warcraft's artstyle and tone from.

The one you actually presented but have been desperately backflipping away from since, because you immediately realized you had no leg to stand on. Where you claimed that it was the direction of "Holly's leadership" and this modern "cozycore" that were presenting this idea of a threat not being a threat because people don't show up to fight it or people stop in the middle of a dire threat to go do dumb silly shit.

how bad is it that Chen's short appearance in 5.3 is still more story screentime than everyone in the TWW key art gets after launch except Alleria

"How bad is it that Chen had more screen time if you ignore the character that completely undermines my point!"
Yeah, bud. Real bad.

TWW is a bunch of completely disconnected stories most of which revolve around dropped plot threads after launch.

True. Hey remember when the Alliance's Jinyu forces and Hozen Horde forces did anything at all after their initial quest presence? Remember when the Yaungol did anything at all before inexplicably showing up as a non-story element on Timeless Isle? Hey remember when the Zandalari inexplicably and for no reason ever actually stated, randomly showed up in the middle of Dun Mogoroh, a secure valley on the other side of the world from their stomping ground and started picking a fight with the Dwarves? And then remember when, equally inexplicably, it was just the Dark Iron and Varian Wrynn who decided to fight them as if the other clans had no vested interest in defending their own home valley and the gnomes had completely ceased to exist? Remember when Jaina had a whole plot line about taking the power of the Thunder King and the Blood Elves had a whole plot line about harvesting anima? And then the first one just got completely dropped and the second one had a minor reference in a different expansion?

You bring up one hero not doing enough in MoP throughout the entire expansion while I bring up TWW only having one hero that does anything throughout the entire expansion.

You were the one who in your endless chain of goalpost shifting, started talking about box art as a qualifier for who needs to be involved while also willfully discounting Alleria. But I guess we can only look at box characters when it's convenient to your argument.

Werid how you cited "lots of different groups are fulfilling their own agendas" as a something MoP does much better than TWW, while also simultaneously complaining that the Khaz Algar factions largely kept to their own agendas instead of teleporting across the universe to K'aresh or marching armies into Undermine.

[Ersula]

the alliance isn’t run by the blood/high elfs so no that would be untrue. Humans are a secondary antagonist to the trolls and one that again horde still has in there rank through the forsaken who are still living on troll land in lorderon. Trollbane name not withstanding, who happens to not even be on troll land.

That's a strange qualifier. They would only be secondary because of the Amani's proximity to Silvermoon: The "ancient" Alliance was formed against trolls. The Alliance had no other major enemies. I have to assume they would also fight against Naga & Pirates, and the races that weren't even considered sentient until very recently (gnolls, murlocs) but the lore as its written barely mentions that. The biggest reason the Alliance exists is to push around (and take away the land of) Trolls.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's a strange qualifier. They would only be secondary because of the Amani's proximity to Silvermoon: The "ancient" Alliance was formed against trolls. The Alliance had no other major enemies. I have to assume they would also fight against Naga & Pirates, and the races that weren't even considered sentient until very recently (gnolls, murlocs) but the lore as its written barely mentions that. The biggest reason the Alliance exists is to push around (and take away the land of) Trolls.

They would qualify as secondary because they are literally secondary lore wise. The Amani lived in proximity with humans for thousands of years before the elfs showed up without any conflict of note that we know of. It was the elfs who pushed into troll lane, the elfs who started fighting with them and the elfs who united them and the wilds gods to start the troll wars. The humans only come into the picture because the trolls were beating there actual enemy and they went to the uninvolved humans for help.

Same thing with the Warcraft 1-3 era, the trolls focus wholly on attacking the elfs even though they can’t get through there rune stones paying no attention to the humans who they could fight with no problem as they lacked the elfs protections.

The humans are enemy’s and ya the alliance was made to fight trolls, but from the troll side of things the humans are just a back drop to there real target the elfs.

[Ersula]

The Amani lived in proximity with humans for thousands of years before the elfs showed up without any conflict of note that we know of. It was the elfs who pushed into troll lane, the elfs who started fighting with them and the elfs who united them and the wilds gods to start the troll wars. The humans only come into the picture because the trolls were beating there actual enemy and they went to the uninvolved humans for help.

You're painting the picture that humans & trolls lived in peace all that time when in actually; humans did not exist. We don't know the exact time humans first came to the Eastern Kingdoms but since there is no record of human history before their war with trolls, I'm going to assume its around the same time. We know the Curse of flesh happened about 5000 years before that but we don't know when they actually formed a collective & left northrend. The foundation of Arathor & their conflict starting with the troll tribes is literally the first mention of "humans" in the entirety of azerothian history.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're painting the picture that humans & trolls lived in peace all that time when in actually; humans did not exist. We don't know the exact time humans first came to the Eastern Kingdoms but since there is no record of human history before their war with trolls, I'm going to assume its around the same time. We know the Curse of flesh happened about 5000 years before that but we don't know when they actually formed a collective & left northrend. The foundation of Arathor & their conflict starting with the troll tribes is literally the first mention of "humans" in the entirety of azerothian history.

They lived without major conflict, not the same thing as peace.

And you’re just way off the mark for human history. There first mention is page 65 of chronicels over 16 thousand years before the dark portal, they predate the night elfs by 1000 years and were already on the eastern kingdoms before the high elfs arrived (page 118) likely being there since atleast the sundering so that’s 3000 more years living next to the trolls atlest and then another 5000 years before they made there kingdom and started fighting trolls (126).

So humans had at a minimum of 7000 years with no major conflict with the trolls, 13000 if you count pre sundering.

[Joshuaj]

Well, thanks for telling me something I know, I guess? Have you told it to Blizzard though? Because they certainly didn't get the memo.

Like, I'm sorry for being sarcastic but what are we doing? You know full well why Blizzard don't it. Stating the obvious won't change the fact that this is a business decision. They said so themselves last year that they changed Blood Elf eyes so that they can show more "human" emotion. Where do you think Ethereals stand in that grand plan of theirs?

Salhadaar, Ve'nari, and Locus Walker contradict this entire point btw

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Also, why are we talking Human and Troll conflict again?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Also, why are we talking Human and Troll conflict again?

*Gestures vaguely at the Amani zone and likely patch content*

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Also, why are we talking Human and Troll conflict again?

Would you prefer to talk about SL and the First Ones again?

Don't actually answer this.

[Ersula]

They lived without major conflict, not the same thing as peace.

And you’re just way off the mark for human history. There first mention is page 65 of chronicels over 16 thousand years before the dark portal, they predate the night elfs by 1000 years and were already on the eastern kingdoms before the high elfs arrived (page 118) likely being there since atleast the sundering so that’s 3000 more years living next to the trolls atlest and then another 5000 years before they made there kingdom and started fighting trolls (126).

So humans had at a minimum of 7000 years with no major conflict with the trolls, 13000 if you count pre sundering.

Ah, I see: But that's actually fucking crazy that chronicles would establish humans existing before night elves but still have literally no recorded history during that time. According to the entirety of wow history, the Night Elves were fighting civil wars & existential conflicts with actual gods but Humans did nothing worth mentioning until the founding of Arathor. That's 15000 years of nothing.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ah, I see: But that's actually fucking crazy that chronicles would establish humans existing before night elves but still have literally no recorded history during that time. According to the entirety of wow history, the Night Elves were fighting civil wars & existential conflicts with actual gods but Humans did nothing worth mentioning until the founding of Arathor. That's 15000 years of nothing.

13000 years, and I like to think it was pretty much human on human conflict like this the whole time

[Ersula]

If humans & trolls lived in harmony for thousands of years I would sooner believe high elves were troll/human hybrids. High elves look nothing like how highborne are depicted.

[Joshuaj]

Would you prefer to talk about SL and the First Ones again?

Don't actually answer this.

I'm just wondering what started the discussion lol

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*Gestures vaguely at the Amani zone and likely patch content*

But what kickstarted the convo? That's what I'm wondering. Is the argument about whether or not the Amani will remember or give a damn about the Humans? Or?

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Can y'all be chill for like 2 seconds? Shit...

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Another topic regarding Midnight, but the expac description says the Vanguard is composed of the Light's mightiest champions...

I really hope this ain't everything the Light has rn lmao. I wanna see more Naaru, I wanna see some more Light creatures like the Lightspawn and whatnot, I wanna see more of the Guardian of Ancient Kings and those type of dudes, etc.