Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Given that no rating is above 18, that is an inane answer.

You've never actually look at the ESRB have you?

https://www.esrb.org/ratings-guide/

[Joshuaj]

Young adult. Stories marketed towards teens basically. Hunger Games is a good example.

I mean, Warcraft is rated T for Teen.

[Nymrohd]

You've never actually look at the ESRB have you?

https://www.esrb.org/ratings-guide/

Did you? Is any above 18? Is any above young adult?

[Joshuaj]

Kinda surprised it's capable of writing stories made for young adults lmao

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Did you? Is any above 18? Is any above young adult?

my dyslexia kicked in and Totally misread your other post as "for 18", my bad.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah I think Northrend can combine into 4-5 zones easily. The question is, do you reserve underground areas for patch content, do you reserve some aboveground areas for patch content or will the patches be in different areas altogether.

Reallyhope they have all of the Northrend we know of as launch content. Then have underground areas like Harrowsdeep and the Worldcore as patch zones later. Seems like that would make the most sense.

[Nymrohd]

my dyslexia kicked in and Totally misread your other post as "for 18", my bad.

Lol, it's why most of my posts are edited (though my dyslexia is largely on homonyms which is hell in English).

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Reallyhope they have all of the Northrend we know of as launch content. Then have underground areas like Harrowsdeep and the Worldcore as patch zones later. Seems like that would make the most sense.

I could see keeping the upper part of Storm Peaks inaccessible. Imagine the Titan Machinery breaking through the ground and the entire area being restricted while the Pantheon is in Ulduar, keeping it as a patch zone and raid.

[Sondrelk]

I could see keeping the upper part of Storm Peaks inaccessible. Imagine the Titan Machinery breaking through the ground and the entire area being restricted while the Pantheon is in Ulduar, keeping it as a patch zone and raid.

I would argue the opposite actually. The upper parts are all accessible, but getting down to the lower parts of the machinery is what is impossible at launch. Leave more of a surprise for later.

[Raetary]

wait until you find out who the game is rated for.

The story sounds and plays out like every hyper-generic, overwritten, overproduced YA story with sloppy dialogue in conflict with the setting of the last 6 years.
The games age rating is pretty irrelevant to that.

You can, in fact, write any media well regardless of age range.
It just so happens that this one's trash, and that YA is a wildly overrepresented marketing category that floods, alongside romantasy, every damn fantasy publishing program, which frustrates me personally.

[Nightmare Queen]

Rainbow was an insane theory from Redshirtguy because multiple things were going into the well and the Mythic trophies have a prismatic sheen, nothing else points to that and it caused some serious shitposting. I think it'll swap between Light and Void- dark red would be an odd look regardless of the name. Maybe a darker yellow?

Why not orange?

[Joshuaj]

Yea, I agree. I'm just hesitant to see them go toooooooo deep into either showcasing forms/characters for certain deities, or especially linking them with others in the cosmology chart. I think it'd take away a lot of flavor in racial culture. Though I guess the Loas, particularly Bwonsamdi, do a great job of giving a character to a deity.

But imagine if Bwonsamdi was never shown with his form, and it was just revealed he was one of the Eternal Ones from Shadowlands. It's like, ah okay I guess that can work, but we would've missed out on Bwonsamdi and the depth that brings to not just the Zandalari, but the trolls in whole.

So I agree that the Sky Father is most likely just a part of their depiction of Azeroth, and the most that'll get assigned an real character is with the worldsoul itself. Even then, we may not ever get confirmation that the Tauren ever had any relationship with the worldsoul, but rather respected and worshipped the world itself in a nature conservative sort of way.

Side note now that I mentioned Bwonsamdi... if we don't get any Bwonsamdi in Atal'Utek, man am I gonna flip. What an incredibly fun character.

I'll say this, I do think An'she, Mu'sha, and Lo'sho exist. Heck, multiple beliefs (Not just the Tauren) worship An'she as the Sun God, and every single belief involves nature in some way. And Mu'sha? That's just another name for Elune lol.

My theory is that there are either 2 Life deities, or 3 (if we include what Lo'sho might be into the mix). An'she and Mu'sha would represent the solar aspects of life and the lunar aspects of life respectively.

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Everything about Elune and An'she have been fundamentally linked with nature in some way. Sure, there are obvious connections with other powers, but primarily, their connection is of Life.

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Like I said in prior posts, I think Firim had the right idea, but the wrong conclusion regarding each force. I think each force is represented VIA a unique type of ruling system (except for Disorder). This is how I'd categorize them:
Death- Federalism
Order- Oligarchy
Life- Dualism
Light- Monarchy
Shadow- Kratocracy
Disorder- Anarchy

[Ersula]

Like I said in prior posts, I think Firim had the right idea, but the wrong conclusion regarding each force. I think each force is represented VIA a unique type of ruling system (except for Disorder). This is how I'd categorize them:
Death- Federalism
Order- Oligarchy
Life- Dualism
Light- Monarchy
Shadow- Kratocracy
Disorder- Anarchy

You just reversed engineered the Ravnica setting. Which puts you on the same wavelength as whichever mtg fan dev gave og Xal the Orzhov sigil in that cinematic.

[Joshuaj]

You just reversed engineered the Ravnica setting. Which puts you on the same wavelength as whichever mtg fan dev gave og Xal the Orzhov sigil in that cinematic.

I did? Lmao is that good or bad? Cause I did not intend this.

[Super Dickmann]

the alliance isn’t run by the blood/high elfs so no that would be untrue. Humans are a secondary antagonist to the trolls and one that again horde still has in there rank through the forsaken who are still living on troll land in lorderon. Trollbane name not withstanding, who happens to not even be on troll land.

there is no making the story worse, the horde are the Amani’s main enemy not the alliance the only reason the Alliance even interacts with them at all is because they show up to help the horde in TBC/CATA/Midnight, you can point to them being on the horde in the RTS or the vengeance from Zul’Jin quote but both of those were focused on taking down the elfs, not humans so it only hurts the case of them joining the post RTS horde more...

The Alliance is run by humans, humanity exists as a political entity in-setting on the back of the Troll Wars. Human mages were the guys who incinerated Jintha and broke the Empire, Strom'kar (one of two human swords dedicated to killing trolls, might I add) became a symbol of the king by virtue of its use in the Troll Wars, killing Amani trolls. It was so dedicated to killing trolls in fact, magically and spiritually speaking, that trolls to this day panic when close to it. The pact between elves and humans after was about fighting the Amani. The then-human kingdoms were built directly atop the prior Amani holdings, with what's next to Quel'thalas a rump state. They aren't 'on troll lands' because they killed the trolls and took the lands more thoroughly than the elves did. The Trollbanes (who obviously are on formerly troll-held land, it's not a name, they are right next to Hinterlands' Vilebranch and Arathi's Witherbark) notwithstanding their recent adoption of love and tolerance, set back up again in Arathi because of help from Stormwind. There have been zero wars where humanity has not been against the Amani, zero times humanity has assisted them, no cultural, thematic or visual links. Even the Grimtotem, as one-time Alliance proxies, give more footing to be playable Alliance-side than Amani.

By comparison, the Horde backed the Amani once and then the elves the next time. Beyond just being trolls, of which there are plenty in the Horde already and hence fitting visually, thematically and so forth, they were both part of the Horde and part of the Zandalari Empire. The Zandalari backed the Amani both historically, in the Troll Wars, and in Cataclysm. The Zandalari (and Darkspear, I guess) have ample reason to support the Amani again and serve as a counter-balance to the elves. This gives them an obvious intra-faction conflict (vs. Blood Elves/Forsaken, if Blizzard remember) and an external one (vs. humans). Gameplay-wise, all the same content could be done, but the story wouldn't tie itself in further knots and it wouldn't have to continue the ridiculous 'Oh, Jenny might want to be blue, but Johnny wants to be red' nonsense that has resulted in Horde Earthen, which have zero connection to the faction, nobody wants to play them and have no group identity to interact with future plots. See also Haranir and Dracthyr (or if we're being honest with ourselves, most allied races).

Obviously, you're completely right that the main Amani enemy are blood elves, which is another reason why the Liadrin nanny story is so shit, but it being this bad doesn't mean the secondary enemy of the race has to be spaced, all to give Alliance a race that doesn't fit and they don't want, and to add one of the first ever groups delineated in Warcraft to the evergowing Burger King Kids Club who are pals with everyone.

[Lady Atia]

The Alliance is run by humans, humanity exists as a political entity in-setting on the back of the Troll Wars. Human mages were the guys who incinerated Jintha and broke the Empire, Strom'kar (one of two human swords dedicated to killing trolls, might I add) became a symbol of the king by virtue of its use in the Troll Wars, killing Amani trolls. It was so dedicated to killing trolls in fact, magically and spiritually speaking, that trolls to this day panic when close to it. The pact between elves and humans after was about fighting the Amani. The then-human kingdoms were built directly atop the prior Amani holdings, with what's next to Quel'thalas a rump state. They aren't 'on troll lands' because they killed the trolls and took the lands more thoroughly than the elves did. The Trollbanes (who obviously are on troll land, it's not a name, they are right next to Hinterlands' Vilebranch and Arathi's Witherbark) notwithstanding their recent adoption of love and tolerance, set back up again in Arathi because of help from Stormwind. There have been zero wars where humanity has not been against the Amani, zero times humanity has assisted them, no cultural, thematic or visual links. Even the Grimtotem, as one-time Alliance proxies, give more footing to be playable Alliance-side than Amani.

By comparison, the Horde backed the Amani once and then the elves the next time. Beyond just being trolls, of which there are plenty in the Horde already and hence fitting visually, thematically and so forth, they were both part of the Horde and part of the Zandalari Empire. The Zandalari backed the Amani both historically, in the Troll Wars, and in Cataclysm. The Zandalari (and Darkspear, I guess) have ample reason to support the Amani again and serve as a counter-balance to the elves. This gives them an obvious intra-faction conflict (vs. Blood Elves/Forsaken, if Blizzard remember) and an external one (vs. humans). Gameplay-wise, all the same content could be done, but the story wouldn't tie itself in further knots and it wouldn't have to continue the ridiculous 'Oh, Jenny might want to be blue, but Johnny wants to be red' nonsense that has resulted in Horde Earthen, which have zero connection to the faction, nobody wants to play them and have no group identity to interact with future plots. See also Haranir and Dracthyr (or if we're being honest with ourselves, most allied races).

Obviously, you're completely right that the main Amani enemy are blood elves, which is another reason why the Liadrin nanny story is so shit, but it being this bad doesn't mean the secondary enemy of the race has to be spaced, all to give Alliance a race that doesn't fit and they don't want, and to add one of the first ever groups delineated in Warcraft to the evergowing Burger King Kids Club who are pals with everyone.

You know what would be funny? If the Amani are actually reacting to someone transmogging Strom'kar in Midnight lol.

[Super Dickmann]

You know what would be funny? If the Amani are actually reacting to someone transmogging Strom'kar in Midnight lol.

It'll be their new neutral racial.

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Speaking of trolls and being friends with everyone, the new story suffers from much the same point, much as I actually quite liked the ending bit. Nevermind Zul'jarra, said ending aside, if I got the writer's salary for every tribal girlboss proving herself in the eyes of the spirits relative to the more aggressive male, I could buy my own mansion. In fact, even if I limit it solely to Horde-adjacent races, that'd still give me Talanji, Mayla and now Zul'jarra and a decent shot at leasing a used car. No, it's that the conflict is about the spirits at all, when the Amani conflict always has been about the elves.

Elves come up in the story, sure, they even get called colonizers, since Zul'jarra took a seminar in postcolonial studies in her trip to Dalaran when she was getting her Master's in Generic Tribal Girlbossism, but the story effectively makes Zul'jin its thematic antagonist via the loa. The backbone of the Midnight Amani plot is built around extrapolating about a paragraph of text regarding Malacrass stealing the loa from yonk back and using this to throw the primary Amani character, the one popular enough to appear in other game and show up in stories way after his death as an enemy, not to the elves, but his own people. The loa plot is not only underexplored and contradicted, as the loa did physically back the Amani in the Troll Wars historically and in the now, with their disciples in BFA (where I doubt the local Ghetto trolls would have access to Malacrass' vague binding magic), it also makes the loa themselves look bad. Considering Zandalari loa help the empire in war, for what reason did the Amani not back Zul'jin in trying to reclaim their land, which was at the time, both wrecked by the Scourge and kept under the magical control of the elves who built Silvermoon atop their primary temple? Zul'jan, who may be spared being liquidated like his other male counterparts if there's enough lobbying, is the only one who seems roughly aware of this and, per Midnight, bring up the elf issue, but him being right does nothing because the plot's concept itself is wrong, it's, for lack of a better term, both too woke and not woke enough.

On the one hand, I can't see any forest troll in the story or Midnight eating anyone, engaging in any human sacrifices or torture, ala Liadrin. They are thoroughly whitewashed, only a bit less toothless than the Darkspear and a far cry from the BFA Zandalari, who managed to keep their brutality. On the other hand, so are the elves, no one cares over much to have Liadrin hanging around and Zul'jin gets far more shit, despite being their grandfather and coming the closest to reclaiming their lands, fighting against their millennia-old ethnic enemy who ousted them from their lands (and tortured them in captivity as well, to add). It casts a permanent bloody feud as being effectively a misunderstanding, with the much more pressing problem being Zul'jin breaking their ties with the loa, which on top of again, being based on about three lines of text from twenty years ago, took place when the Amani were already in terminal decline due to the elves well before Zul'jin was chieftain. Zul'jin attacking the elves after the Scourge, which could conceivably be cast as being suicidal in that the Scourge would then turn on him is ignored, and instead he's blamed for 'antagonizing the Horde', despite the elves not even being formally in the Horde at the time and spending their quests doing things like spiking their supplies with poison and going on ear-collection tours. The overarching Zul'Aman antagonists are other forest trolls that the Amani fight alongside Liadrin, who of course, has also taken the bloody murder of her parents on the cheek.

The loa and subsequently the Twilight's Hammer serve the same role as the Scarlet Crusade or Red Dawn in the terrible Gilneas and Arathi stories, all-purpose plot insulation to avoid writing about actual ethnic and cultural group conflict, even where that conflict is the entire point. The Amani iteration of this is a bit more sophisticated and I like Zul'jan well enough as the only character who is written to be aware of this, much as I think the ending of the story is actually very solid for addressing this topic as directly as it gets, but it has the same problem and so fails by default.

[Lady Atia]

Currently listening to the new audiobook, and it seems like Zul'jarra is lesbian? That's awesome!! Really hope that's actually ingame and not just some thing that's only referenced in the shortstory.

[extasy]

The only thing that it will show to Microsoft is that they can make the game even more pricey and milk the players (that they don't even see as players, but consummers) even more. So where does it stops ? What's the point where you will say "that's too much" ?

I keep seeing games die every single day and their entire dev teams fired so i'd like wow to stay alive even if it means having 3% decor items and 2-3% mounts on SHOP.

I know math sucks, but imagine having same sub price since 2004 and complaining about few items being sold for real money.

Would u rather have the sub cost 20$ then? Cus they have to pay 800+ dev team in LA, server cost and also make investors happy.

To answer your question, it will never be too much for me as long as game stays alive by this and i get content to play. besides, u can earn in-game gold > turn into real money on battle.net and buy those items.

100 housing currency = 1$
15$ (token) = 1500 currency
1500 currency = bunch of items u can buy or even a bundle.

Consensus = if u play the game, u can still get whatever it is on shop.

Would i prefer to go and buy these for 100g on vendor? Hell yes lmao, but welcome to 2026 gaming industry.

[Kilpi]

An Amani raid makes sense, not another Amani zone (but this one has green rivers). An offensive level of asset reuse.

I've always tried to figure out the problem with asset reuse. I mean... that's how 99,99% of videogames work. A new zone/dungeon/raid isn't new unless certain amount of assets are new and unique?

[Nightmare Queen]

Yea, I agree. I'm just hesitant to see them go toooooooo deep into either showcasing forms/characters for certain deities, or especially linking them with others in the cosmology chart. I think it'd take away a lot of flavor in racial culture. Though I guess the Loas, particularly Bwonsamdi, do a great job of giving a character to a deity.

But imagine if Bwonsamdi was never shown with his form, and it was just revealed he was one of the Eternal Ones from Shadowlands. It's like, ah okay I guess that can work, but we would've missed out on Bwonsamdi and the depth that brings to not just the Zandalari, but the trolls in whole.

That would piss me off immersivity. The fact that the literally Afterlife is full of robots instead of JUST departed souls and deities is dumb IMO. And I was telling people that he's just an 'elevated' troll and kept getting told that no, he just looks like that.

Thankfully it's not true.