Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[allegrian]

I hope bliiz creates better overarching villain factions, with their goons, lieutenants and big leader. Xalatath is only a void sylvannas with no backstory thats cool and fun but she's only one unoriginal character with barely any connection to the warcraft story.

Legion had their big leader, big sub bosses, known ranks and enemy units. With xalatath they had to put the ethereals and twilight hammer 2.0 to fill the blanks.

It's all very messy and makes no sense.

[Joshuaj]

The power level of the Naaru is probably the most inconsistent thing in Warcraft powerscaling (which is saying a lot). A regular Dark Naaru doesn’t feel very threatening when we already beat up one as a rare in WoD

It depends on the type of Naaru, as well as the source of power they have. Reminder, Dark Naaru M'uru and its Void God state, Entropius, are far stronger than AU Dark K'ure and its counterpart, Decimatus.

And Xe'ra only fell to Illidan due to her being both A. Newly reborn and likely weakened as a result. B. Not being by many holy sources. And C. Not really being on the offensive at the time.

I don't care what Chronicle said, Xe'ra was NOT restored to her full power when she reformed. Would be like saying Phase 1 Dimensius was restored to his full power, when that's clearly not the case. Xe'ra's power during the Rejection of the Gift Cinematic was the Prime Naaru equivalent of Phase 1 Dimensius lmao.

Does make me wonder how the supposed AU counterparts of the Prime Naaru function though, cause given our track record with the Timeways and whatnot, I don't think an AU Light Mother should be possible, though it is likely the Prime Naaru could be unique, or that Xe'ra simply reconfigured herself in the Light Realm, and decided to amass an army in AU Draenor? Idk. AU or not, Prime Naaru are seemingly the top dogs of the Light until stated otherwise.

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Funny enough, Dark Star K'ara seemed to be almost A'dal level in terms of power, and that's her without a proper Void power source or anything like that.

And given M'uru's power being weaponized through the Sunwell is capable of holding off the Voidstorm (which consists of Dimensius's power), it does make me wonder how strong a Prime Naaru could be if they were given the Dimensius boss fight treatment, but with the Light instead.

[DenPhoenix]

It depends on the type of Naaru, as well as the source of power they have. Reminder, Dark Naaru M'uru and its Void God state, Entropius, are far stronger than AU Dark K'ure and its counterpart, Decimatus.

I wonder, if L’ura will get her Void God form? In her final phase, she has an ability called “The Dark Archangel” — L’ura transfigures into an unholy weapon of godlike destruction.... I’ve seen clips from test encounters with her, and at some stage she transforms crystalline form multiple times into some symbols.

AU Light Mother should be possible, though it is likely the Prime Naaru could be unique, or that Xe'ra simply reconfigured herself in the Light Realm, and decided to amass an army in AU Draenor? Idk. AU or not, Prime Naaru are seemingly the top dogs of the Light until stated otherwise.

We haven’t gotten any retcon about cosmic forces across alternate timelines yet, so I think it’s fair to assume that forces like the Light — just like the Legion — are shared across all timelines.

[Telogrus]

I wonder, if L’ura will get her Void God form? In her final phase, she has an ability called “The Dark Archangel” — L’ura transfigures into an unholy weapon of godlike destruction.... I’ve seen clips from test encounters with her, and at some stage she transforms crystalline form multiple times into some symbols.



We haven’t gotten any retcon about cosmic forces across alternate timelines yet, so I think it’s fair to assume that forces like the Light — just like the Legion — are shared across all timelines.

Would be cool if it was a Mythic only phase.

Tbh, the Dark Naaru design is much cooler than the Void God design (assuming they don't redesign it entirely if L'ura does enter that state), so I wouldn't lose any sleep if we don't see her Void God form

[DenPhoenix]

Btw, I noticed that on Warcraft Wiki, March on Quel’Danas is listed as having three subzones — Court of the Phoenix, The Darkwell, and The Great Sea. There’s no map for The Great Sea, and I can’t find anything related to it in the databases. But it makes me wonder — is it possible that the raid might end in a different location?

Though it’s more likely that it’s just for the coastal area.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Btw, I noticed that on Warcraft Wiki, March on Quel’Danas is listed as having three subzones — Court of the Phoenix, The Darkwell, and The Great Sea. There’s no map for The Great Sea, and I can’t find anything related to it in the databases. But it makes me wonder — is it possible that the raid might end in a different location?

Though it’s more likely that it’s just for the coastal area.

Could be a mythic exclusive phase like the Sha of Fear in Terrace of the Endless Spring.

[Ersula]

Could be a mythic exclusive phase like the Sha of Fear in Terrace of the Endless Spring.

It's just a zone for if you swim into the ocean. Instead of having invisible walls.

[Joshuaj]

I wonder, if L’ura will get her Void God form? In her final phase, she has an ability called “The Dark Archangel” — L’ura transfigures into an unholy weapon of godlike destruction.... I’ve seen clips from test encounters with her, and at some stage she transforms crystalline form multiple times into some symbols.



We haven’t gotten any retcon about cosmic forces across alternate timelines yet, so I think it’s fair to assume that forces like the Light — just like the Legion — are shared across all timelines.

Damn, so K'ure really did just get fucked over in AU Draenor, huh?

[Foolicious]

The power level of the Naaru is probably the most inconsistent thing in Warcraft powerscaling (which is saying a lot). A regular Dark Naaru doesn’t feel very threatening when we already beat up one as a rare in WoD

There's also Ti'or. The dark naaru captured by the brokers used as a target dummy for the maldraxxians.

I don't mind there being weak (dark) naaru, but i think its about time we get someone like velen to confirm ingame that naaru can vary vastly in power.

[Boomer Thor]

Fuck it

I have never seen a reddit post i agreed with this much on the subject of the lore

https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlor...mment/ocpz1lm/

Chronicle cosmology must be erased. Kabbalah for kindergarteners is a popular pastime among worldbuilders, and I never found it interesting, Warcraft isn't an exception. It's so sterile and tidy that it completely lacks life and vividness. Yellow magic makes you X, purple magic makes you Y... Ugh. I wish people could experience profound emotions because of themselves and not because of being irradiated by colorful rays and make mistakes because of reasons they find themselves in and not because straying away from enlightened centrism makes you bad. It kills potential for religion lore because it quickly boils down to colorful rays you must balance like an accounting department. Priest order hall is one of the worst takes on religion I've ever seen: the authors love their kindergarten kabbalah and have no idea what religion is and how it works for good and for bad.

....
This "saga"? I'm very subjective, and I dislike it. The story revolves around a few chosen characters, and the world bends and twists around these characters to accommodate their story. Elf reunification raises so many questions because there are many matters the devs have no wish to address even with a single line, Anduin's story makes me sick with how the world is accepting for someone it'd see as a man who derelicts his duty because of purely self-centered reasons, and Xal'atath is an archetype of a villain instead of a villain, so all she does is floating around as a sexy elf cackling and throwing intimidating quotes, but there's nothing eldritch about her and nothing concrete about her goals, she's just there because the story needs an antagonist (which should be marketable). It all is clearly not for me, so I'd cut it in a heartbeat. I don't think it contributes something great to the setting or elaborates old concepts in a good fashion.

[Thomir]

Would it be interesting if it's revealed Void Lords are just Domanaar at the very very top of the food chain? Only because I was imagining Decimus as one and bringing some personality to the drab showing that Dimensius gave. I honestly would've preferred if Dimensius said nothing instead of giving the most generic big bad dialogue, calling us "insects" cringe.

[Eldryth]

I don't mind there being weak (dark) naaru, but i think its about time we get someone like velen to confirm ingame that naaru can vary vastly in power.

The Voidstorm storyline actually demonstrated that pretty well without needing to stop and explain it, imo. L'ura was much stronger than T'era, the backup Naaru that Xal'atath had the Shadowguard corrupting. Xal'atath said as much to Salhaadar, and it was then shown when Alleria was able to easily obliterate T'era by unleashing L'ura's power.

Are there clearly defined tiers? We don't know. Nor do we know if L'ura is on par with a Prime Naaru like Xe'ra. But L'ura was definitely far stronger than T'era, which shows that Naaru are not all on the same level.

[Boomer Thor]

Tbh wow is known for having terrible dialogue

[Thomir]

Fuck it

I have never seen a reddit post i agreed with this much on the subject of the lore

https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlor...mment/ocpz1lm/

Danuser WAS trying to abolish the cosmology chart by discrediting it on multiple occasions, i.e stating it's just how the Titans perceive the cosmos, the brokers chart showing another interpretation, and most recently the Arathi interpretation. But it was Metzen's brainchild, so I'd expect any progress on that front to be reversed.

[Joshuaj]

Danuser WAS trying to abolish the cosmology chart by discrediting it on multiple occasions, i.e stating it's just how the Titans perceive the cosmos, the brokers chart showing another interpretation, and most recently the Arathi interpretation. But it was Metzen's brainchild, so I'd expect any progress on that front to be reversed.

Uhm, no? He literally says SL was meant to expand on the Cosmology chart, and provide new perspectives

[allegrian]

Fuck it

I have never seen a reddit post i agreed with this much on the subject of the lore

https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlor...mment/ocpz1lm/

I agree about Xalatath. By now, two main expansions focusing on her, Blizzard still hasn't commited to giving her a clear goal and reason for doing it, she's just a children cartoon villain that sends her goons in each episode/chapter but escapes before the heroes attack her.

Blizzard has a big commitment problem as they are always and constantly changing the story direction, even inside their own marketted "story saga" where they said they'd have to commit to the trilogy story". We've already seen pivots from tww plots and swapped zones between tww and midnight.

[Super Dickmann]

Do you think the ZA stuff would have worked better using shadowguard as and summoned void elementals as the bulk of the twilights blade forces, instead having a focus on characters believing they can escape the end of the world by joining the void and having a decent chunk be blood elves, mirroring the elves who joined the legion in TBC

As we discussed a while back, the best way to do it if we're forced to keep the premise of the story is to have the cultists in the background, spurring the existing Troll-Elf conflict to give themselves time to reach Kith'ix. They'd operate via false flags and disguise themselves as Amani and Elves to cause a fight. Your idea to have them be majority elf is a good way to ground them, the way the Tranquilien guys were, since the governor's motive, despite every participant in that subplot being a blithering retard was at least explored, put in a void elf who's been taken over to seed that early etc.

On the troll end, the issue is that despite the four tribes, there's no actual points of friction or overlap between them, none of the tribes disagree on what they should do and their loa aren't even competitive the way the Zandalari are, so the cultists spurring them to dig up Kith'ix to master him, possibly urging Zul'jan to use the Lightwood to bind Kith'ix, to serve as a parallel to the elves and M'uru. Then you can have the cult discovered over the course of it, elves kill the elf ones, trolls kill the troll ones and they keep a tepid ceasefire to stop the cult from raising Kith'ix, leading into your raid/patch.

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I agree about Xalatath. By now, two main expansions focusing on her, Blizzard still hasn't commited to giving her a clear goal and reason for doing it, she's just a children cartoon villain that sends her goons in each episode/chapter but escapes before the heroes attack her.

BFA/SL has done permanent damage to the way any kind of criticism of the game's plot is composed. People going on about how any plot that's bad must be bad because it's cosmic is one aspect, stuffing arguments that actually made sense against Sylvanas and the Bald Man in the microwave and applying them everywhere is another.

No. Xal'atath's goal and reasoning aren't vague. From her first appearance in Legion she's said 'only one of them (Old Gods then, void beings now) will devour this world', she was reintroduced in TWW saying she'll eat the Worldsoul, she ends the expansion restating the same. Both her ally in Iridikron and her enemy in Decimus tell us that they trust in her hunger and that her goal is to eat the world. The reason she does it is also obvious - she's made of concentrate naturally grown evil. These things weren't even mystery boxes, they were not just openly said and repeatedly, but easily intuited by virtue of this being the motive of 90% of all villains in this franchise and 100% of the Old Gods.

Based on this, she spends every appearance moving towards her goal of eating the planet. Sometimes she moves forward (Dala), sometimes she's set back (Beledar) and needs to recover (Undermine), sometimes she takes the w (K'aresh) and pushes her advantage (Voidspire). She's about as textbook as a villainy 101 character must be, competently done, but not exceptional. Is she more style than substance? Sure, of course, but that's Warcraft for you. Is a villain motivated by eating the world limited in a setting that has had a lot more grounded motives? Also yes. But that alone puts her on the higher tier of franchise villains, helped along by the fact that she's among the least affected by the rewrites.

[Holdodlig]

I agree about Xalatath. By now, two main expansions focusing on her, Blizzard still hasn't commited to giving her a clear goal and reason for doing it, she's just a children cartoon villain that sends her goons in each episode/chapter but escapes before the heroes attack her.

Blizzard has a big commitment problem as they are always and constantly changing the story direction, even inside their own marketted "story saga" where they said they'd have to commit to the trilogy story". We've already seen pivots from tww plots and swapped zones between tww and midnight.

We don't even know what she wants to do. We knew the Legion wanted to conquer Azeroth and corrupt it because it was in their nature, and fel was written as an influencing energy, almost with its own will.They later added Sargeras' fear which was justified.

The Lich King wanted do kill everyone by revenge and because he wanted a gigantic undead army.

Deathwing wanted to end the World because he was batshit crazy after the Old God corrupted him.

Garrosh was a glorified tyrant who wanted to rule the world Kalimdor so the orcs would have their world again.

Then it all went down with Shadowlands. What the fuck wants the Jailer ? Why does he needs the soul of Azeroth ? Was he just a death expansionist ? We still don't know.

The Primalist's goal was basic, turn Azeroth back to its primitive state and it worked. I wouldn't say they were the best villain, but they were Warcraft enough. But why would Iridikron sacrify his own brother ?

Then Xal'atath, why the fuck is she betraying every soldier she has ? And why the hell are people still working for her when they know they'll get fucked ?

I would have a stupid shit theory about Xal, but if it was only on me, I'd say that she's trying to send every single void threat in the cosmos one by one so we can kill them and free the cosmos from the void because of how inefficient she is as a villain. People are only simping over her sexualized design and gesture with Alleria. Outside of that, she's got nothing for her.

[Civciv]

Xal might be doing all this cuz she wants to, not that she has an ulterior motive.

[Boomer Thor]

Pretty sure that is her ulterior motive.