Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Turalyon doesn't hate the undead he fully accepts Faol once he senses the light in him in before the storm.

Admittedly, I can actually see a bit of @Imnotadentist meant—of course, Turalyon rapidly gets over his hatred of the Undead and seems to have taken pains to repress that hatred towards the Orcs, as well. I could see the demise of someone like Anduin doing quite a bit to test those developments. However, I definitely think that he's not really a bad person or a crazed fanatic at all—he's always struck me as pretty reasonable. Other than trying to kill Illidan over pretty understandable reasons and still forgiving the man when he calmed down and remembered what was at stake, as well as the funni (and remarkably OOC, given he'd usually be the type of person to talk Alleria down from taking extreme action instead of encouraging her going off his behavior in every novel prior to that) moment with that Orc in Shadows Rising, Turalyon has consistently been fairly cooperative and level-headed. This isn't to say he doesn't have flaws – for one, he can be pretty distrusting going off his highly understandable and particularly moderate but still iffy approach to the Dracthyr, and he's definitely still much more warmongering than the likes of Anduin – but I think these flaws only add to a fairly benign character rather than make him a villain.

Ideally, I want Turalyon to be the leader of the Alliance for the long haul. I'd prefer for Anduin to abdicate the throne or be unable to be restored to total leadership of the Alliance when he comes back, because Turalyon is a far better "face" for such a faction anyways. My feelings on Turalyon are that he represents everything right (religiousness, heroism, civility) and wrong (suspicion, unprogressiveness, imperialism) with the Alliance as a whole while still being a generally good person, making him an extraordinarily effective representation of the Alliance as a faction and thus someone I think is worth rallying around. The fact that he adds a good deal more meat to the Alliance's behavior and culture is just icing on the cake.

[Houle]

Before everyone loses their shit, the book is NOT new. The new part are the annotations by Neltharion.



The book itself is literally from the WC3 manual, so I wouldn't even analyze that at all.

Ahhh you are right. I completely forgot about that thing. Well, still doesnt change much. The fact that they are re-using it now, with added Neltharion scribbles, shows they are using it as lore again, more or less. The five old gods got retconned into four with chronicles originally (back when chronicles was actually meant to be factual lore, not "tItAnS pErSpEcTivE"), but this now at least indicates they are going back to five (kinda depending on wether they want this too mean G'huun or Xal).


To be completely fair, even tho its probably going to turn out very lame, a new enemy "outside" of the forces at least has the potential to be interesting, considering all the previous big enemies are pretty much beyond ruined at this point. First they all got forced into neat little categories with the whole "cosmic forces" crap, and now they are even more reduced into being 3D-printed robots from a factory.

Sargeras, the big bad for over a decade? Fckn idiot who was merely manipulated left and right, and probably printed in Zereth Ordos.
The eldritch and mysterious old gods? Big, mass produced parasites from the Void Lords.
The Void Lord themselves, who were supposed to be the new big and mysterious eldritch beings? Printed and spat out of Zereth Umbra.

Every enemy from the cosmic forces is inevitably going to be traced back to "factory robot" because of that. A new enemy beyond the forces at least means it didnt come from the production line of some "Zereth". But they are probably going to ruin that small bit of potential real quick as well, considering the lore the last few years.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

To be completely fair, even tho its probably going to turn out very lame, a new enemy "outside" of the forces at least has the potential to be interesting

Honestly, I will counter your statement. I say that I honestly think it would be worse—although I see what you mean by the forces each being demeaned by the presence of the Totally Definitely First For Sure Until We Make Something Else Up Ones, I think that introducing a new enemy entirely alien to the Cosmic Forces would inevitably be worse than simply skimming over the fact until further notice, or claiming for whatever reason that the Void Lords and the like were not printed out of their respective Force's Zereth like the Pantheon of Death were. The issue with this new set of entities is that they will invariably fall flat on account of the typical quality of Blizzard writing—they cannot feasibly present the extraordinary cosmic threat they're meant to be simply on account of the law of diminishing returns. When we continue up the ladder of supposedly the worst threats evah!!!, then the story becomes increasingly unbearable as all stakes promptly dissipate entirely.

Ideally, the "greater threat" ought to just be the imminent Cosmic War—every side has a "what is to come", and that's the plan of every other side, as they all hate one another and naturally would perceive a universe potentially dominated by any of the other five as the worst possible outcome. The Jailer just wanted to rewrite reality because he wanted to make it impossible for the other sides to win, N'Zoth's triumph would be the Void-corrupted Azeroth, etc.

I'm certain that unless great changes are made, the Cosmic War is unlikely to be particularly enjoyable or interesting, but it would still be superior to anything that could possibly be produced as an enemy outside of the preexisting Cosmic Forces that somehow preceded than and is even more dangerous than all of the others combined.

That, and I think the idea that every Cosmic Force thinks a victory by any of the others is worse than anything that could ever happen would be far more compelling because it would paradoxically make them more alien and make their motives more ultimately understandable because they're simultaneously perceiving reality from a manner somewhat incomprehensible to us but also make the actions taken to preclude a victory by any other power have a more compelling motive than an innate drive to triumph over the others. This idea that the Cosmic War is something like a Prisoner's Dilemma, where all the others want to achieve absolute victory to preclude the possibility of the others ever striking and winning, would be a very interesting way to achieve the twin goals of making the highest Cosmic Forces feel alien yet also creating entities that are compelling, multifaceted, and in a sense sympathetic.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Admittedly, I can actually see a bit of @Imnotadentist meant—of course, Turalyon rapidly gets over his hatred of the Undead and seems to have taken pains to repress that hatred towards the Orcs, as well. I could see the demise of someone like Anduin doing quite a bit to test those developments. However, I definitely think that he's not really a bad person or a crazed fanatic at all—he's always struck me as pretty reasonable. Other than trying to kill Illidan over pretty understandable reasons and still forgiving the man when he calmed down and remembered what was at stake, as well as the funni (and remarkably OOC, given he'd usually be the type of person to talk Alleria down from taking extreme action instead of encouraging her going off his behavior in every novel prior to that) moment with that Orc in Shadows Rising, Turalyon has consistently been fairly cooperative and level-headed. This isn't to say he doesn't have flaws – for one, he can be pretty distrusting going off his highly understandable and particularly moderate but still iffy approach to the Dracthyr, and he's definitely still much more warmongering than the likes of Anduin – but I think these flaws only add to a fairly benign character rather than make him a villain.

While I’m sure anduin’s death would get him into quite the tissy the man did see his arch angel blow up and only responded with one half hearted sword swing, the only real way to justify him going full on Fanatic or war monger would be another Teldrassil the horde would pretty much need to prove there as bad as the legion with how he’s been portrayed so far.

Ideally, I want Turalyon to be the leader of the Alliance for the long haul. I'd prefer for Anduin to abdicate the throne or be unable to be restored to total leadership of the Alliance when he comes back, because Turalyon is a far better "face" for such a faction anyways. My feelings on Turalyon are that he represents everything right (religiousness, heroism, civility) and wrong (suspicion, unprogressiveness, imperialism) with the Alliance as a whole while still being a generally good person, making him an extraordinarily effective representation of the Alliance as a faction and thus someone I think is worth rallying around. The fact that he adds a good deal more meat to the Alliance's behavior and culture is just icing on the cake.

ya him sticking around would be pretty ideal he’s pretty much the perfect mix of anduin and Varian and even has strong ties to the other kingdoms including lorderon which opens up alot of building to do if the horde and alliance are going to stay on good terms.

[Chickat]

I still don't get why they did not use Gorehowl as an Artifact. Especially given how Alliance-heavy artifacts were.

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The Aspects DID have their full power after Day of the Dragon when the main universe's Demon Soul got destroyed.

Oh was it returned to them?

[Nymrohd]

Oh was it returned to them?

Yes, they were back at full power, that's how they drove Deathwing away.

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Honestly, I will counter your statement. I say that I honestly think it would be worse—although I see what you mean by the forces each being demeaned by the presence of the Totally Definitely First For Sure Until We Make Something Else Up Ones, I think that introducing a new enemy entirely alien to the Cosmic Forces would inevitably be worse than simply skimming over the fact until further notice, or claiming for whatever reason that the Void Lords and the like were not printed out of their respective Force's Zereth like the Pantheon of Death were. The issue with this new set of entities is that they will invariably fall flat on account of the typical quality of Blizzard writing—they cannot feasibly present the extraordinary cosmic threat they're meant to be simply on account of the law of diminishing returns. When we continue up the ladder of supposedly the worst threats evah!!!, then the story becomes increasingly unbearable as all stakes promptly dissipate entirely.

I think an easy solution that can recontextualize the robot problem is to make it so that the Shadowlands are NOT the Plane of Death, they are a transitive plane guarding entry into Death. We know there are myriad of afterlives and only four of them had Eternals; well maybe those four are not afterlives at all, they are just services running in the background to allow Death to interface with the mortal world better (and skimming energy to keep themselves running). So in that sense, the Eternals were not the Gods of Death, they were more like concierge service. Death uniquely needs that because it has to interact with the mortal world in this way and Life probably needs an Eternal or two (Elune) to grant souls to the newborn but the other realms don't need a force that is completely pinned to the Purpose that way.
Plus I still don't see why the Titans need to be changed as robots from Zereth Ordos; their original origin could just stay as it was and they could have found or been guided to Zereth Ordos; it would make them creatures of the central, seventh realm that willingly chose to align themselves with one of the Forces, no different than a Paladin is tied to the Light (and that would be such a coup for Ordos; they managed to get one of the biggest powers on the material to align with them).
In general, they need to stop designing the cosmic elements of the story by spreadsheet and allow the different forces to be individual rather than themed versions of the same blueprint.

[Nathanyel]

Dialogue's a little stilted on her part, though. If you're writing snippy notes in the margins, it usually behooves you to be a little more concise and less excessively formal, especially given it seems like the vandal is writing out of frustration and not trying to communicate to anyone in particular.

I mean, to me it sounds a little bit conspiracy theorist. Not to say the things stated aren't true, but phrased in a way that invokes untrustworthiness.

We, as players and as humans, have to learn that pointing out flaws of side A does not make side B better. Order, the Titans, or their constructs being capable of being 'evil' (be that from the point of view of the players or the mortals of Azeroth) does not make the Old Gods "good, actually".

Neither N'Zoth nor the Jailer wanted to help us rather than use us to preserve/extend their own hold on the universe.
Although I wouldn't mind a bit of bantery "working with the enemy against a greater threat", even if that enemy is a mind-shaking Old God.

We will instead see more tenuous cooperations between the Horde and the Alliance AS WE SHOULD'VE GOTTEN IN WOW AFTER THE EVENTS OF WARCRAFT III ANYWAY BUT NO THE EWIGGESTRIGEN WENT "IT'S ORCS VS HUMANS NOT ORCS & HUMANS" ahem, excuse me, so there's plenty opportunity of sarcastic banter, and/or small-scale "hot enemy" shenanigans. (tropes aren't bad) But I digress.

I think an easy solution that can recontextualize the robot problem is to make it so that the Shadowlands are NOT the Plane of Death, they are a transitive plane guarding entry into Death. We know there are myriad of afterlives and only four of them had Eternals; well maybe those four are not afterlives at all, they are just services running in the background to allow Death to interface with the mortal world better

What do you mean, "recontextualize"? That's how it's been explained, the Shadowlands are not fully in the realm of Death, but a connector to Reality, similar to the Emerald Dream (see Cosmic Chart) and while they presumably always existed (Marasmius existed for eons before the arrival of the Winter Queen) they were shaped (to avoid the word "ordered") by the First Ones, empowering construct bodies with souls to create the Eternal Ones as overseers of the five administrative realms (to clarify: counting Oribos as the fifth, not the Maw)

[Nymrohd]

What do you mean, "recontextualize"? That's how it's been explained, the Shadowlands are not fully in the realm of Death, but a connector to Reality, similar to the Emerald Dream (see Cosmic Chart) and while they presumably always existed (Marasmius existed for eons before the arrival of the Winter Queen) they were shaped (to avoid the word "ordered") by the First Ones, empowering construct bodies with souls to create the Eternal Ones as overseers of the five administrative realms (to clarify: counting Oribos as the fifth, not the Maw)

Absolutely, that's how it is shown in game. But when Devs call the Eternals the Pantheon of Death in interviews, they are actually going against the in-game lore; they are not a Pantheon of Death since they are adjacent to Death, not part of it. These expectations (Death has a Pantheon therefore every force has a Pantheon) were formed by the devs' comments outside the game, not by the game itself. If we strip the in game lore from random things Ion and Danuser said cause they don't know their own lore or cannot prepare for an interview properly, we do arrive at this concept for the SHadowlands.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

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I have no particularly relevant commentary to add here as I agree with this in full, with two exceptions—the first is that I want to add to your preferred explanation to the Shadowlands the specific clause that, in addition to generally agreeing, I also think it would also be best to contradict that comment made in an interview that going to the realm of another Cosmic Forces, such as the Light, is exceptionally rare. This should be changed to the baseline, and the delivery service should drop them off there. This is already how I've always figured I'd rewrite Shadowlands if I had to keep the same terrible setting. A "celestial bureaucracy"-type thing would be much more palatable.

The second thing I want to say is that I do think it's fine if the Titans remain explicitly beings of Order—I like the idea that whatever is going on with Order, it either doesn't have a realm or the Titans don't have a reason to go there, and their primary interest is in ordering reality. They're more scientific beings than anything, so they just want to explore physicality and work there. Maybe one could say it would be redundant for the greatest champions of Order to spend their time in a place that is already perfectly-ordered when physical reality isn't perfectly ordered and could use their presence, or perhaps one could instead say that Order doesn't need a realm at all due to the nature of what it does.

However, I think what would really be the absolute best thing to do is say that although they are creatures of Order, they are specifically manifestations of the Great Dark Beyond trying to understand and order itself, thus being inhabitants of that reality instead of the plane of Order, which is wholly inhabited by Constellar. It allows you to get over the problem of "it's stupid that the Titans were made in factories" and explains the Titans' seeming nativity to the Great Dark Beyond, while also keeping them relevant even with awareness of the First Ones. I like this particular idea well enough that I do still think the idea of the universe trying to understand itself would be fun even if they aren't creatures of Order, and think it would go well with your idea, too.

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I mean, to me it sounds a little bit conspiracy theorist. Not to say the things stated aren't true, but phrased in a way that invokes untrustworthiness.

We, as players and as humans, have to learn that pointing out flaws of side A does not make side B better. Order, the Titans, or their constructs being capable of being 'evil' (be that from the point of view of the players or the mortals of Azeroth) does not make the Old Gods "good, actually".

That's how I already feel and doesn't strictly contradict anything I said there. I actually wrote a bit earlier on a direction I'd like to see somewhat along those lines. I do actually like the idea that they do legitimately want to "help" in the sense that they honestly think any other side winning would be the worst possible outcome, though.

You know, here.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Anyone feels like DF is the most fitting expansion to add a mage tower thingy, since we deal with different timelines?

Like arms warriors could fight Grommash and Fury warriors could fight some evil version of Varian.

DH could fight Illidan 1v1 to get updated, higher res version of Warglaives of Azzinoth etc.

[Revamp Man]

The mentions of the elements and their strength has me thinking we will see therazane and the other lords again

5th old god is definitely Xal and I can't wait to see her come back and be like "you fought my brothers, sealed, weakened, even the weakest required a Titan's power to overcome. Tell me what hope you have against me? Serve your purpose and live in my mercy"

[Nymrohd]

However, I think what would really be the absolute best thing to do is say that although they are creatures of Order, they are specifically manifestations of the Great Dark Beyond trying to understand and order itself, thus being inhabitants of that reality instead of the plane of Order, which is wholly inhabited by Constellar. It allows you to get over the problem of "it's stupid that the Titans were made in factories" and explains the Titans' seeming nativity to the Great Dark Beyond, while also keeping them relevant even with awareness of the First Ones. I like this particular idea well enough that I do still think the idea of the universe trying to understand itself would be fun even if they aren't creatures of Order, and think it would go well with your idea, too.

Well that was the idea. The Titans were meant to have been created by the interplay of Light and Void (or really ALL the Forces) with the Great Dark Beyond. I'd say Constellar managed to reach them before agents of any of the other forces and they sought Ordos first and aligned themselves with it but are still of all Forces.

More importantly I want the Titans to be very aware of the Six Forces and possibly aware of the First Ones. This idea that extremely powerful beings did not explore and seek to understand the cosmos seems inane to me. So them being able to enter Zereth Ordos makes sense to me. E.g. I believe Azshara ALSO knows about the First Ones (and the Throne she is seeking is that of the First Ones). She is an ancient arcanist obsessed with power who had the time and the means to explore the cosmos, even if simply by divination.

[Darkarath]

Cannot wait for Azshara to appear again. I read somewhere that Nagas are making an appearance in the Forbidden Reach, which got me pretty excited. Hopefully they say something interesting.

Honestly I just cannot wait to see what 10.1 has in store for us. 10.1 is going to be one of the most important patches in WoW's history. It has to be really good to keep the interest of current players while getting back dissapointed players from SL and BfA. When do you think that we will see it hitting PTR? 10.0.7 should be live in... March 15th, 22?

[Nymrohd]

Cannot wait for Azshara to appear again. I read somewhere that Nagas are making an appearance in the Forbidden Reach, which got me pretty excited. Hopefully they say something interesting.

Yeah they added some nagas in the coast and in a coastal cave area and there is a Tuskar daily to go kill them.

[Darkarath]

Yeah they added some nagas in the coast and in a coastal cave area and there is a Tuskar daily to go kill them.

I am very interested in Naga's current situation. I am guessing that Azshara leads them again, but I wonder what relation do they have now with the Old Gods / The Void. Are they free of their influence?

Nazjatar was ok, although I feel that we all expected much more. Naga's number are probably limitless. They have thrived in the oceans for millenia, presumably undisturbed. In 8.2 they could have killed us at any time. Us going there was N'zoth's plan, right? To free him with our HoA. But I guess that Azshara was part of this plan too. Even if we later see her imprisoned in Ny'alotha, it could have all been a trick to make us believe that they are no longer together.

N'zoth could have informed Azshara of his inevitable defeat in Ny'alotha, but obviously he made plans. His essence could be in Xal'athat, Blade of the Black Empire, as we all know. But who took this dagger? I bet that N'zoth would not be interested in Xal'athat having it. So that leaves us Azshara, his Queen and ally for millenia. And if Xal'athat was able to get a humanoid form, I do not see why N'zoth could not do the same.

Humanoid Old Gods would be far more interesting IMO, as they could do much more with them in such a way. Who knows? N'zoth might already have a vessel. Hell, we might have talked to him without knowing it.

[Nymrohd]

Humanoid Old Gods would be far more interesting IMO, as they could do much more with them in such a way. Who knows? N'zoth might already have a vessel. Hell, we might have talked to him without knowing it.

Humanoid Old Gods can't do their job though. Their job is to dig through the planet and reach the World Soul at its core.

Now if a Titan Facility already has done the work for them and they can manage to slip inside using a humanoid form . . . that's another story. (that was the plot of my fan expansion concept for Dragon Isles as 9.0 in early BfA)

[Darkarath]

Humanoid Old Gods can't do their job though. Their job is to dig through the planet and reach the World Soul at its core.

Now if a Titan Facility already has done the work for them and they can manage to slip inside using a humanoid form . . . that's another story. (that was the plot of my fan expansion concept for Dragon Isles as 9.0 in early BfA)

Well, they would still have their minions right? And whatever powers they might have. N'zoth could tell Iridikron to dig for him, for example. The thing is that we do not really know how powerful they are in their humanoid form. But Xal'athat seems powerful enough.

[Nymrohd]

Well, they would still have their minions right? And whatever powers they might have. N'zoth could tell Iridikron to dig for him, for example. The thing is that we do not really know how powerful they are in their humanoid form. But Xal'athat seems powerful enough.

What I wanted to see was
8.2.5 Horde rebellion doesn't happen. Instead Barrens Warfront which sets Baine against Alliance at least temporarily
8.3 Horde besieges Stormwind, raid similar to Dazar'alor. At end of raid Alliance pushes Horde out (maybe Genn and Nathanos die here). At Harbor, N'zoth shows up and fucks our shit up. Sylvanas yeets away and abandons Horde. Factions pursue a truce.
Pre-expansion Black Empire Armies attack locations across the world, Alex and Wrathion show up and tell us N'zoth is headed to Dragon Isles. Isles were made to protect Uldorus which leads directly to the World Soul.
Then Dragon Isle expansion would have Uldorus as a vast structure (which would be outside the Heart Chamber) on the other side of Azeroth rising from the ocean with five isles floating around it. Each of the Islands would get assaulted by a different part of N'zoth's united black empire army (Mantid, Nerubian, Qiraji, his own mind flayer/undersea dude + Twilight Hammer). During the Expac Odyn would move the Halls of Valor to Uldorus "to protect it" but would end up fighting the dragons and in the end Xal'atath would be the one who infilitrates Uldorus leading to an Underground xpac next.

[Darkarath]

What I wanted to see was
8.2.5 Horde rebellion doesn't happen. Instead Barrens Warfront which sets Baine against Alliance at least temporarily
8.3 Horde besieges Stormwind, raid similar to Dazar'alor. At end of raid Alliance pushes Horde out (maybe Genn and Nathanos die here). At Harbor, N'zoth shows up and fucks our shit up. Sylvanas yeets away and abandons Horde. Factions pursue a truce.
Pre-expansion Black Empire Armies attack locations across the world, Alex and Wrathion show up and tell us N'zoth is headed to Dragon Isles. Isles were made to protect Uldorus which leads directly to the World Soul.
Then Dragon Isle expansion would have Uldorus as a vast structure (which would be outside the Heart Chamber) on the other side of Azeroth rising from the ocean with five isles floating around it. Each of the Islands would get assaulted by a different part of N'zoth's united black empire army (Mantid, Nerubian, Qiraji, his own mind flayer/undersea dude + Twilight Hammer). During the Expac Odyn would move the Halls of Valor to Uldorus "to protect it" but would end up fighting the dragons and in the end Xal'atath would be the one who infilitrates Uldorus leading to an Underground xpac next.

I would play it. Definitively better than what we got. God SL was such a shitshow.

Now that you mention the Black Empire Army, we might say that:

- N'raqi (Faceless ones) are linked to ALL Old Gods.
- Nerubians are linked to Yogg-Saron.
- Mantid are linked to Y'Shaarj.
- Quiraji are linked to C'Thun.
- Scythid are linked to... N'zoth? The fifth Old God? They surely look as a race that would fit in the Black Empire army.

I know that all these races would support Old Gods in general. But with all of them alive, they chose sides. I do not know if I am forgetting an insectoide race linked to N'zoth. The Naga might fill that gap as they were clearly in league with him.

[Sondrelk]

I would play it. Definitively better than what we got. God SL was such a shitshow.

Now that you mention the Black Empire Army, we might say that:

- N'raqi (Faceless ones) are linked to ALL Old Gods.
- Nerubians are linked to Yogg-Saron.
- Mantid are linked to Y'Shaarj.
- Quiraji are linked to C'Thun.
- Scythid are linked to... N'zoth? The fifth Old God? They surely look as a race that would fit in the Black Empire army.

I know that all these races would support Old Gods in general. But with all of them alive, they chose sides. I do not know if I am forgetting an insectoide race linked to N'zoth. The Naga might fill that gap as they were clearly in league with him.

I'm surprised we never learned N'zoth commands the Makrura actually. Seemed like a perfect fit given the underwater theming.