Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

Could you elaborate on this clarification? Unless Blizzard specifically said “we’re never doing an undermine expansion”, it can’t be ruled out.

They said that Goblins (and contextually, based on the question, Gnomes) inherently are comedic-relief characters, and while they are fine and a welcome change, they want their main characters and main narrative to be straight-laced and very serious.

Edit: And before you say "Things might have changed!", that interview is from last week.

[Nibelheimy]

I am scared for people's lack of imaginations. Khaz algar and undermine could easily be clear faction capitals an 'underground' expansion, though undermine has the potential to be awesome enough to stand alone as neutral.

As an example, hollow knight is a perfect example of a game set almost entirely underground and it feels amazing and has very distinct subzones and biomes. Yes an mmo is different, there's no reason that some zones could have areas above ground, or even just areas where we can see the sky above, or waterfalls and glowing caverns in the background I.e like the caverns of time.

Although people will complain, if we ever do get undermine in anyway. Gnomes and goblins deserve a very race specifically designed tinker hero class. Not like evokers, more like demon hunters.

[Reive]

There was a leak where some of the court documents around the MS/Activision merger were leaked, but there wasn't really anything about Activision in there that wasn't already known from investor calls. It was largely about MS itself, the run up to the merger and past mergers.

thanks. the way she worote that made it seem like those leaked documents also contained wow sub numbers.

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on topic: if they really want to go underground, they better step up their game and make better zones than zaralek.

[Kiria]

I am scared for people's lack of imaginations. Khaz algar and undermine could easily be clear faction capitals an 'underground' expansion, though undermine has the potential to be awesome enough to stand alone as neutral.

As an example, hollow knight is a perfect example of a game set almost entirely underground and it feels amazing and has very distinct subzones and biomes. Yes an mmo is different, there's no reason that some zones could have areas above ground, or even just areas where we can see the sky above, or waterfalls and glowing caverns in the background I.e like the caverns of time.

Although people will complain, if we ever do get undermine in anyway. Gnomes and goblins deserve a very race specifically designed tinker hero class. Not like evokers, more like demon hunters.

I understand what you mean by different biomes but the whole idea of an expansion called "Undermine" though, doesnt inspire interest, I know I wouldnt pre order for sure.

[Teriz]

They said that Goblins (and contextually, based on the question, Gnomes) inherently are comedic-relief characters, and while they are fine and a welcome change, they want their main characters and main narrative to be straight-laced and very serious.

Edit: And before you say "Things might have changed!", that interview is from last week.

Do you have a link to the interview? Thanks.

It reminds me of the statements made by Tom Chilton in regards to Pandaren right before Mists of Pandaria was announced. Essentially saying that people believing that a Pandaren expansion was coming needed to lower their expectations since Pandaren were only used for other media and not for WoW.

One month later Mists of Pandaria was announced.

Further, Blizzard controls the tone of a narrative. Goblins and Gnomes can be as serious or as silly as Blizzard wants them to be.

[milkmustache]

It reminds me of the statements made by Tom Chilton in regards to Pandaren right before Mists of Pandaria was announced. Essentially saying that people believing that a Pandaren expansion was coming needed to lower their expectations since Pandaren were only used for other media and not for WoW.

One month later Mists of Pandaria was announced.

I mean, if we go that route we can say that makes a South Seas expansion equally as probable due to Mike Ybarra's "No pirates." tweet.

[Makorus]

Do you have a link to the interview? Thanks.

It reminds me of the statements made by Tom Chilton in regards to Pandaren right before Mists of Pandaria was announced. Essentially saying that people believing that a Pandaren expansion was coming needed to lower their expectations since Pandaren were only used for other media and not for WoW.

One month later Mists of Pandaria was announced.

Further, Blizzard controls the tone of a narrative. Goblins and Gnomes can be as serious or as silly as Blizzard wants them to be.

https://www.millenium.org/news/406685.html

Goblins and Gnomes can be as serious or as silly as Blizzard wants them to be.

Can they though? Blizzard has used them as comedic relief for the last 20 years, bar one short stint where Mekkatorque actually attacked someone in a cinematic (yet even his boss fight was comedic relief).

Community perception is that they are a joke. They can try their hardest to change it, but if you try to tell a serious story with gnomes and goblins on the frontline, it's not gonna end well.

And that's coming from someone who is a big fan of Goblins/Gnomes.

[Teriz]

All of that shares a single visual theme.

If an underground expansion was happening, it would take themes from various subterreanean fantasy themes as well as warcrafts own.
Underdark and others, Dwarves, Titans, Nerubians and other insectoids, Fungi and elementals, etc.

Basing the entire continent on Goblins but with more money, Goblins but with more conveyor belts and Goblins but with extra Tesla coils, isn't gonna cut it.

Yeah, I think you’re not considering just how far Blizzard could take the theme. You could lay Undermine out like a modern city with downtown, industrial sector, Central Park, the slums, etc. and you’ll get a fairly good variety of locale just from that.

Conversely, they could simply have it that certain trade princes control areas of the continent. It could be as pedestrian as a Goblin robber baron who controls the mines and has hordes of hobgoblins and troll slaves, to the Tinker’s Union where there’s biolabs and robots, to something crazy like a goblin version of Willy Wonka who controls a candy factory and turned an entire zone into a demented version of candy land.

Hearthstone’s The Boomsday Project should show you how crazy Blizzard can go with a Goblin-based tech theme.

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https://www.millenium.org/news/406685.html

Sorry, I can’t read that.

Can they though?

They did it with the Pandaren.

[Cheezits]

I really doubt Blizz would ourright troll or lie with their current tenuous fanbase relationship.

Underground is ironically the one most likely to have ZERO pirates compared to South Seas, Revamp or Backside. Doesn't explain the new boats though.

I think "no pirates" is probably an exaggeration but still, it tracks...

[Teriz]

I mean, if we go that route we can say that makes a South Seas expansion equally as probable due to Mike Ybarra's "No pirates." tweet.

“No pirates” is a bit more definitive than “lower your expectations”.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I usually like Bel's content but that video, oh boy, is just full of toxic masculinity. Dragonflight is the best Expansion since Legion, and easily on par with MoP, but all he does is crying about it being not "brutal enough" and how guys would have prefered the ugly Draconids instead of the Dracthyr? WoW doesn't need to change "direction", it's already on the right track, all they need is a nostalgia bait expansion to bring back a mass of players similiar to WoD/Shadowlands (which had a huge number of new/returning players but didn't manage to retain them unlike Dragonflight).

I hardly see issues with the tone as a matter of toxic masculinity insomuch as a desire to retain the general soul of the franchise. While much should be reasonably expected to have changed, we're at a point where the franchise simply doesn't feel like Warcraft: Dragonflight is tonally more analogous in my mind to a child-friendly spinoff like Snow Fight than Warcraft III. A representation of the matter as an absence of masculinity may be less accurate than a representation of the problem as an absence of tonal congruity with prior installments, and with a very modernized sense of excessive tonal cleanliness. I figure men and women alike with any interest in preserving what little is left of the franchise would appreciate seeing things get a little less sappy.

[Makorus]

Yeah, I think you’re not considering just how far Blizzard could take the theme. You could lay Undermine out like a modern city with downtown, industrial sector, Central Park, the slums, etc. and you’ll get a fairly good variety of locale just from that.

Conversely, they could simply have it that certain trade princes control areas of the continent. It could be as pedestrian as a Goblin robber baron who controls the mines and has hordes of hobgoblins and troll slaves, to the Tinker’s Union where there’s biolabs and robots, to something crazy like a goblin version of Willy Wonka who controls a candy factory and turned an entire zone into a demented version of candy land.

Hearthstone’s The Boomsday Project should show you how crazy Blizzard can go with a Goblin-based tech theme.

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Sorry, I can’t read that.




They did it with the Pandaren.

They did what with Pandaren?

Pandaren were not used as a comedic relief for the last 20 years before they were added.

In fact, the only time Pandaren were actually used in a non-Easter Egg way, in Founding of Durotar, it was played in a straight, serious way.

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I hardly see issues with the tone as a matter of toxic masculinity insomuch as a desire to retain the general soul of the franchise. While much should be reasonably expected to have changed, we're at a point where the franchise simply doesn't feel like Warcraft: Dragonflight is tonally more analogous in my mind to a child-friendly spinoff like Snow Fight than Warcraft III. A representation of the matter as an absence of masculinity may be less accurate than a representation of the problem as an absence of tonal congruity with prior installments, and with a very modernized sense of excessive tonal cleanliness. I figure men and women alike with any interest in preserving what little is left of the franchise would appreciate seeing things get a little less sappy.

Dragonflight (or the themes of it anyway, what people essentially complain about) is the logical follow-up from Warcraft 3, more so than Vanilla.

There is not any more "tonal cleanliness" than in Warcraft 3. At the end of the day, Warcraft 3 is just as much "World of Peacecraft" as Dragonflight is. The game literally hammers you over the head with "Hey, guys, stop fighting AGAINST eachother, there is a big threat that you should fight against together!" which has been the theme for the last 5 expansions or so.

The game literally ends with a cheesy Anime-esque defense mission, climaxing in a deus ex machina moment.

[Cheezits]

Dragonflight feeling too whimsical, playful and sappy is definitely a common critique and doesn't really have to do with masculinity (even if some people frame it that way, both for and against).

I do think some of it may be intentional to set up a twist with Tyr. Like him killing Vyranoth.

[Teriz]

They did what with Pandaren?

Pandaren were not used as a comedic relief for the last 20 years before they were added.

In fact, the only time Pandaren were actually used in a non-Easter Egg way, in Founding of Durotar, it was played in a straight, serious way.

6 years before MoP was announced.

Goblins and Gnomes are staples of the fantasy genre. Chubby Pandas doing a parody of kung fu is not. Yet an expansion based on the latter is considered one of the best WoW expansions ever made.

[Makorus]

6 years before MoP was announced.

Goblins and Gnomes are staples of the fantasy genre. Chubby Pandas doing a parody of kung fu is not. Yet an expansion based on the latter is considered one of the best WoW expansions ever made.

Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

I don't see how it's so hard to understand.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Dragonflight (or the themes of it anyway, what people essentially complain about) is the logical follow-up from Warcraft 3, more so than Vanilla.

There is not any more "tonal cleanliness" than in Warcraft 3. At the end of the day, Warcraft 3 is just as much "World of Peacecraft" as Dragonflight is. The game literally hammers you over the head with "Hey, guys, stop fighting AGAINST eachother, there is a big threat that you should fight against together!" which has been the theme for the last 5 expansions or so.

The game literally ends with a cheesy Anime-esque defense mission, climaxing in a deus ex machina moment.

You're not wrong that Warcraft III actually created major negative externalities for the series going forward insofar as the faction conflict went. It introduced the idea that perpetual war isn't an ideal state of things, but failed to deliver that message in a sustainable way for the franchise as it would go on. However, a general message of cooperation and an ending that was admittedly a foreshadowing of things to come—that is, faction cooperation to take down a personality-deprived villain—did not undermine the core spirit of the franchise. Characters were allowed to be emotional without spending five minutes in a pre-rendered cinematic making sad eyes at the camera, the level of violence was well within what's to be expected from the series, the sillier moments were kept relatively subdued,—emphasis on "relatively", as Warcraft III was still not too subdued on that front, so that should really illustrate the magnitude of Dragonflight's tonal problems,—and there was a good level of general grit even on account of the ending and most of TFT hammering in a message of cooperation.

Back on the cooperation bit, part of what helped may have been that any effort for peace and collaboration in Warcraft III was more going against the tide, while a sequence of in-story paradigm shifts have left it the status quo in modern Warcraft, which frankly makes the point feel less strong.

Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

I don't see how it's so hard to understand.

To be fair, MoP was by all means setting up for Dragonflight's tonal issues. Putting this kind of thing front-and-center was the worst part of an otherwise-good expansion. Its benefits were good worldbuilding, a feeling of adventure, and some interesting villains, while its excessive levity was arguably the worst part of it.

[huth]

Because Pandas were not exclusively used as comedic relief, while Goblin and Gnomes have been?

I don't see how it's so hard to understand.

Up until then, Pandaren were mostly seen as a joke. And i'd disagree with your other claim as well. Sure, they're commonly comic relief, but not exclusively. They do as much serious stuff when tech savvy people are needed as they do comedic when they aren't.

Gallywix sure isn't funny when you actually think about what he did.

[Cheezits]

People shouldn't forget that players are antsy for factions (not war but factions at all) and that is playing into a lot of tonal complaints.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Gallywix sure isn't funny when you actually think about what he did.

To be fair here, this is a matter of implication versus presentation. The latter typically wins out in fiction. Whatever his actions fundamentally would've caused, the presentation of his actions and their consequences have typically been comedic. The only exception to this would be if you consider BfA to be his fault, in which case the presentation of the war still oriented around serious characters and Gallywix's role in it was typically understated in the actual story, regardless of how much impact he actually had.

[milkmustache]

I'm not against Undermine, I think a larger spotlight on Goblins and yes, even the inclusion of tinkers, would be a ton of fun. I just don't see that being their direction when it feels like every single expansion the community seems to veer back to world revamp & old world return. I think an Undermine expansion could be a ton of fun even just as a part of something bigger, but following Dragonflight as another adventure somewhere other than some of the key pillars of the game (old world, factions, races, etc.) is gonna disappoint a whooooole lot of people