Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

Eh, I think Blizzard could pull it off. We can't say it would be a catastrophe until it is attempted. The reason I don't think a cosmic expansion could work is because of Shadowlands for example. Mists of Pandaria for example sounds terrible on paper; A parody of China where fat Panda people do their own form of Kung Fu against evil Mantis people that make buildings out of their spit. Yet in execution it's one of the best expansions ever made.

Except we know that caves zones are bad not just in concept, but in execution.

Zaralek Cavern is one of the worst received zones.

It's like making an expansion set entirely within the Maw, with different Maw-esque zones, like Korthia.

[Shadochi]

This is just my wishful thinking and way out of the scope of what can be done in an expansion:

World revamp BUT with also One Azeroth (unified Azeroth or whatever) where basically all the continent transitions are seamless and take maybe a couple minutes of flying manually over the ocean at top dragonriding speeds.
The 'Expansion area' to be in revamped EK and Kalimdor, but also a large underground zone in between them with tunnels connecting to various spots on revamped continets. And then with that maybe an underwater zone and an "underwater bubbled zone" that looks regular since it has magic shit protecting it fromt he water. Can go even in an elven route with the landmass that sunk around the maelstrom.

And then as patches come out add subzones and tunnels to other continents and revamp what else needs it besides EK and Kalimdor (like northrend for example).

But even without revamp I would love a One Azeroth, does the tech they use for Zaralek transition actually make this possible since if i'm not mistaken there is either major loading and unloading going on when you travel, or the caverns is straight up a separate instance without a loading screen. In any case it would be way easier to implement over open ocean than in a tunnel

[Makorus]

This is just my wishful thinking and way out of the scope of what can be done in an expansion:

World revamp BUT with also One Azeroth (unified Azeroth or whatever) where basically all the continent transitions are seamless and take maybe a couple minutes of flying manually over the ocean at top dragonriding speeds.
The 'Expansion area' to be in revamped EK and Kalimdor, but also a large underground zone in between them with tunnels connecting to various spots on revamped continets. And then with that maybe an underwater zone and an "underwater bubbled zone" that looks regular since it has magic shit protecting it fromt he water. Can go even in an elven route with the landmass that sunk around the maelstrom.

And then as patches come out add subzones and tunnels to other continents and revamp what else needs it besides EK and Kalimdor (like northrend for example).

But even without revamp I would love a One Azeroth, does the tech they use for Zaralek transition actually make this possible since if i'm not mistaken there is either major loading and unloading going on when you travel, or the caverns is straight up a separate instance without a loading screen. In any case it would be way easier to implement over open ocean than in a tunnel

The problem is that it would be very hard to make it seem... realistic? without also taking forever to get to the other side. If you make it take like a minute to cross from Kalimdor to Azeroth then it just makes the world seem smaller. It's gonna make it feel like another zone rather than a whole different continent.

[Toho]

Blizz cant afford a catastrophe of trying something new unless they want to lose what little good faith most players have left, an underground expansion is not the way to bring people back or retain them sadly, A Revamp or a Decent story is needed.

The map is already looking crowded, we are already half way there with the meme

[ImTheMizAwesome]

I mean like i said some posts ago - everything can happen, but is underground, a very "gimmicky" expansion something that will actually bring at least some of people back or top the sales of DF that were lower than SL for known reasons.

Also DF being discounted by 50% pretty much almost all the time is also not a good sign, great for people but usually it happens when something don't sell as much as they thought it will but it's another topic.


At least in my opinion next expansion might be something that will be easier to sell to people, but who knows.. Everything is on the table.

[Teriz]

It would however start on the backfoot by having to prove it's a good idea, rather than stuff like the Dragon Isles which conversely has to prove it's not a bad one.
Underground is a very specific concept which the average player likely isnt immediately onboard with, similar to the Shadowlands. It could be good, but it has that extra hurdle to cross.

A world revamp has a whole bunch of fallbacks that it could go to if the actual world revamp isnt all that it's cracked up to be. Several well known locations that could be mined for interesting dungeons or quests. The all important nostalgia factor is very much in play in this case.

MoP is exactly what we are talking about with an underground expansion. Players were against it to start with, and had to prove it was good. Conversely expansions like BfA has more leeway because the concept is so appealing that it had to repeatedly prove it was bad for the mood to sour.


In short: An underground expansion will be a bad idea because Blizzard doesnt have enough goodwill, or enough support around the Underground concept to sell an expansion on that alone.
Maybe if Zaralek cavern was absolutely beloved by the community and everyone were clamoring for more content there. But they are not, most people seem quite happy to leave it behind, even if some people like it. I loved Vashj'ir, but that doesnt mean I think it would be a good idea for a full expansion, just that I would love it.

Except we know that caves zones are bad not just in concept, but in execution.

Zaralek Cavern is one of the worst received zones.

It's like making an expansion set entirely within the Maw, with different Maw-esque zones, like Korthia.

Where are these views coming from? Was there a poll of WoW players that I missed where the majority said they despised underground zones, or that Zaralek Caverns is the most hated zone in Dragonflight? If so, I'd be very interested in seeing them.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean like i said some posts ago - everything can happen, but is underground, a very "gimmicky" expansion something that will actually bring at least some of people back or top the sales of DF that were lower than SL for known reasons.

Also DF being discounted by 50% pretty much almost all the time is also not a good sign, great for people but usually it happens when something don't sell as much as they thought it will but it's another topic.


At least in my opinion next expansion might be something that will be easier to sell to people, but who knows.. Everything is on the table.

You don't think an underground expansion is easy to sell to players of a fantasy MMO?

That's kind of funny.

[pacotaco]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2641116-Eclipse We've got a winner here!

If that's the expansion theme, a Night Warrior themed class (Priest of Elune + Warden) is a must.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Where are these views coming from? Was there a poll of WoW players that I missed where the majority said they despised underground zones, or that Zaralek Caverns is the most hated zone in Dragonflight? If so, I'd be very interested in seeing them.

- - - Updated - - -



You don't think an underground expansion is easy to sell to players of a fantasy MMO?

That's kind of funny.

I mean, dragons are a lot easier to sell than underground expansion and it still didn't top the charts or brought more people than they probably thought it will.

And ye in my opinion, Underground and underwater is a gimmick that is harder to sell than usual, "pretty" open areas above it.

[Sondrelk]

Where are these views coming from? Was there a poll of WoW players that I missed where the majority said they despised underground zones, or that Zaralek Caverns is the most hated zone in Dragonflight? If so, I'd be very interested in seeing them.

The general sentiment around Zaralek caverns is that it's not a very good zone. Is this because it's underground, and not because the systems there are not great? Probably, but that doesnt change that Zaralek caverns is the zone players seem to be the most negative towards.

Regardless, an underground expansion is very much a gimmicky idea given WoW doesnt exactly have a long and storied history of underground zones. Noone is saying that it couldnt be amazing and blow all our expectations out of the water. But simultaneously it would be an expansion very much like MoP: An uphill struggle to convince players that the gimmick is actually worthwhile.

A world revamp meanwhile is while ambitious, very much a crowd pleaser and a concept most players would be onboard with. Not just in terms of zone variety/theme or narrative. But having all kinds of potential for fun systems attached. Player Housing for instance.

An underground expansion just seems to me like the kind of thing you do, either when underground zones is a proven and hotly anticipated concept. Or when you are completely out of ideas and you need something radical to mix things up.
Underground zones can definitely work, so that's one tick. But I don't think it's exactly a hotly anticipated concept. In that regard I would much more likely put my money on the backside of Azeroth. For that matter, I would put my money on backside of Azeroth if the dev team is out of ideas as well.

[Makorus]

Where are these views coming from? Was there a poll of WoW players that I missed where the majority said they despised underground zones, or that Zaralek Caverns is the most hated zone in Dragonflight? If so, I'd be very interested in seeing them.

- - - Updated - - -



You don't think an underground expansion is easy to sell to players of a fantasy MMO?

That's kind of funny.

Zaralek is dead. The forum is filled with post about how the zone is, comparatively to the base-zones, quite boring.

And don't get me wrong, I understand that the zone isn't dead because of the design of the zone itself, but because the gameplay-side of it is just bad, but that doesn't matter.

The public perception is that it is a bad zone. Once again, Blizzard could make an expansion based around the Maw or Korthia or even just be evocative of them and have it be the best expansion ever: People wouldn't buy it.

The fact that you genuinely think an Underground expansion combined with Goblin/Gnome themes is something the playerbase wants or would sell is absolutely hilarious.

[Sondrelk]

I mean, dragons are a lot easier to sell than underground expansion and it still didn't top the charts or brought more people than they probably thought it will.

And ye in my opinion, Underground and underwater is a gimmick that is harder to sell than usual, "pretty" open areas above it.

Underground or Underwater sound basically like going to Argus or whatever. Yes you could have fun with it, and it's not a terrible idea. I just wouldnt want a full expansion set there. I want one zone to give us all the best ideas, and a bunch of more normal zones surrounding that to give it contrast.

The core issue with all of these concepts is that you have to start each one with "So it's X, but don't worry about Y aspect of it, because turns out that's not the case here."
"So it's Argus, but don't worry about the entire thing being a Demon infested wasteland of black and green, because turns out half the planet is actually quite nice."
"So it's underwater, but don't worry about underwater combat or movement, because most of it will take place inside ecodomes that hold the water out."
"So it's underground, but don't worry about it feeling claustrophobic, or a lack of a day/night cycle, because there is actually a giant Azerite crystal that lights up the caves, which are additionally large enough that you probably won't be feeling like you are in a cave to begin with."

[Teriz]

I mean, dragons are a lot easier to sell than underground expansion and it still didn't top the charts or brought more people than they probably thought it will.

And ye in my opinion, Underground and underwater is a gimmick that is harder to sell than usual, "pretty" open areas above it.

I believe Dragonflight was largely hindered by Shadowlands being terrible and us already having a "dragon" expansion with Cataclysm. Because of that, Dragonflight had to work harder to build back the goodwill of the WoW community.

[Jaggler]

I believe Dragonflight was largely hindered by Shadowlands being terrible and us already having a "dragon" expansion with Cataclysm. Because of that, Dragonflight had to work harder to build back the goodwill of the WoW community.

DF had a rough start because BfA and Sl were two back to back badly received expansions, whish was a first in WoW's lifespan. While DF certainly did very man things right there still are (some rightful, some not) questions remaining about WoW and its future.

I don't think people would be excited about an uderground expansion, unless it is a really great concept, but i don't see it atm.

[Teriz]

The general sentiment around Zaralek caverns is that it's not a very good zone. Is this because it's underground, and not because the systems there are not great? Probably, but that doesnt change that Zaralek caverns is the zone players seem to be the most negative towards.

TBF it's more than likely the latter, because people were very excited about Zaralek when it was first announced.

Regardless, an underground expansion is very much a gimmicky idea given WoW doesnt exactly have a long and storied history of underground zones. Noone is saying that it couldnt be amazing and blow all our expectations out of the water. But simultaneously it would be an expansion very much like MoP: An uphill struggle to convince players that the gimmick is actually worthwhile.

Which I don't think is a bad thing. The game is better off in the long run attempting something new that they've never done before instead of retreading the same tropes again. Again, I do believe that's what kind of hindered Dragonflight despite it being a very good expansion; WoW players have experienced dragons many times throughout the history of WoW and we already had a dragon expansion in Cataclysm.

A world revamp meanwhile is while ambitious, very much a crowd pleaser and a concept most players would be onboard with. Not just in terms of zone variety/theme or narrative. But having all kinds of potential for fun systems attached. Player Housing for instance.

An underground expansion just seems to me like the kind of thing you do, either when underground zones is a proven and hotly anticipated concept. Or when you are completely out of ideas and you need something radical to mix things up.
Underground zones can definitely work, so that's one tick. But I don't think it's exactly a hotly anticipated concept. In that regard I would much more likely put my money on the backside of Azeroth. For that matter, I would put my money on backside of Azeroth if the dev team is out of ideas as well.

Yeah, we simply won't know how hot it is until it's done. My main point is that we can't simply say it's going to fail or be disliked simply because of our own feelings. The only way we'd know for sure is if Blizzard actually does it. Just like we had no idea how a cosmic expansion would fair until we did Shadowlands, and then we realized that Blizzard probably shouldn't do more cosmic expansions for awhile.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

I believe Dragonflight was largely hindered by Shadowlands being terrible and us already having a "dragon" expansion with Cataclysm. Because of that, Dragonflight had to work harder to build back the goodwill of the WoW community.

Ye i mean i won't argue about Shadowlands hindering some of the reception.

But i also look at SL-DF like WoD-legion, both SL and WoD were the most dark times for wow but different here at least to me is legion having more success than DF recovering from that is because it was much easier to sell, even when you have dragons on the other side(edit).

Having DF recovering some of the good will and then going for big "?" with more "gimmick" based expansion that might just not work or won't sell well might end badly.

Still, everything is on the table, it's just pure speculation - none of us might be right in the end.

Im teamrevamp but i hardly believe it will happen anymore, but im still on board with the other side of azeroth or void or something else than just going all in underground, none of the "descriptions" sold me on it at all so far.

[Makorus]

TBF it's more than likely the latter, because people were very excited about Zaralek when it was first announced.




Which I don't think is a bad thing. The game is better off in the long run attempting something new that they've never done before instead of retreading the same tropes again. Again, I do believe that's what kind of hindered Dragonflight despite it being a very good expansion; WoW players have experienced dragons many times throughout the history of WoW and we already had a dragon expansion in Cataclysm.



Yeah, we simply won't know how hot it is until it's done. My main point is that we can't simply say it's going to fail or be disliked simply because of our own feelings. The only way we'd know for sure is if Blizzard actually does it. Just like we had no idea how a cosmic expansion would fair until we did Shadowlands, and then we realized that Blizzard probably shouldn't do more cosmic expansions for awhile.

How was Cataclysm a dragon expansion?

It's like calling a Wrath a Dragon expansion

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I believe Dragonflight was largely hindered by Shadowlands being terrible and us already having a "dragon" expansion with Cataclysm. Because of that, Dragonflight had to work harder to build back the goodwill of the WoW community.

Hard to build goodwill if you intend to nuke it at your premier marketing event.

[Teriz]

Zaralek is dead. The forum is filled with post about how the zone is, comparatively to the base-zones, quite boring.

And don't get me wrong, I understand that the zone isn't dead because of the design of the zone itself, but because the gameplay-side of it is just bad, but that doesn't matter.

Well it sort of does matter. People were excited about Zaralek at first, and clearly the gameplay sidelined that excitement. That shows that people are willing to give an Underground experience a shot, Blizzard just has to provide the proper gameplay for it.

The fact that you genuinely think an Underground expansion combined with Goblin/Gnome themes is something the playerbase wants or would sell is absolutely hilarious.

Well the simple reality is that both the underground sections of Azeroth and Goblins and Gnomes are integral parts of Warcraft. There are fantasy fans who like underground areas and concepts, there are Warcraft fans who like Goblins and Gnomes, and there are fantasy and warcraft fans who like steampunk fantasy. Every expansion isn't going to appeal to every player, and it isn't good for the long term health of the game to not take risks. For example, I personally didn't want or like Shadowlands, but I appreciated Blizzard doing the expansion and taking the risk. Same applies for MoP. I'm sure plenty of standard WC players felt MoP was the dumbest concept ever, but in the end WoW is better for it happening instead of Blizzard playing it safe.

I believe an underground expansion is in that same vein of risk taking, which is why I believe it's highly likely to happen.

- - - Updated - - -

How was Cataclysm a dragon expansion?

It's like calling a Wrath a Dragon expansion

Gee, I have no idea....

[Pyrophax]

Idea:

• Order has "lost" Azeroth. With Queen Alexstrasza caving to the influence from Vyranoth, and letting the Dragon Aspects be empowered by Amirdrassil instead of the Titans, the Titans have effectively lost their "prize", and their primary method of ensuring the timeline went on as planned until Azeroth's world-soul was born as a Titan. Not sure if the Titans die, but anyway.
• The Void makes it move against the now (seemingly) defenseless Azeroth.
• In their place, the elements step in. With Thrall as their speaker, the elements empower the players in the next expansion, allowing us to defend Azeroth and prevent the Hour of Twilight. Azeroth is born, free.

Last one is good IMO. But Azeroth is siphoning spirit energy from surface, so Azeroth-chan basically monk. She is bound by noone by now.
So either she is new Avatar with mix of all magics, that is bound to her will by spirit energy (we have all 6 grand forces ingame present in surface of Azeroth) or
in a way she is spirit-titan (same as Golganeth is water and storm titan).

[Teriz]

DF had a rough start because BfA and Sl were two back to back badly received expansions, whish was a first in WoW's lifespan. While DF certainly did very man things right there still are (some rightful, some not) questions remaining about WoW and its future.

I don't think people would be excited about an uderground expansion, unless it is a really great concept, but i don't see it atm.

Well that's the thing; I never doubt Blizzard's art department. If they put out the concepts and themes at BlizzCon, they can sell the expansion. Heck, Zaralek Caverns was hotly anticipated until people actually played it. It all comes down to the execution.

- - - Updated - - -

Ye i mean i won't argue about Shadowlands hindering some of the reception.

But i also look at SL-DF like WoD-legion, both SL and WoD were the most dark times for wow but different here at least to me is legion having more success than DF recovering from that is because it was much easier to sell, even when you have dragons on the other side(edit).

Having DF recovering some of the good will and then going for big "?" with more "gimmick" based expansion that might just not work or won't sell well might end badly.

Still, everything is on the table, it's just pure speculation - none of us might be right in the end.

Im teamrevamp but i hardly believe it will happen anymore, but im still on board with the other side of azeroth or void or something else than just going all in underground, none of the "descriptions" sold me on it at all so far.

I would also support a revamp if that's the direction Blizzard wants to go. I agree that the game could use some upgrades in its zones. However, if Toweliee is correct, there will be no revamp in retail WoW.

I do believe the benefit that an Undergound expansion would have over the other side of Azeroth or a Void expansion is a more grounded element and a more known element that is more based in classic Warcraft. Undermine for example comes from the same old school pedigree as Pandaria, Broken Isles, Northrend, and Kul'Tiras. It's not part of the newer (Danseur) Warcraft concepts that we've experienced in recent years. There's also a pretty hard limit on an underground expansion that gives it a bit more gravity and believability, that would benefit the game moving into its 20th anniversary. Underground exploration and venturing to a planet's core to find hidden realms is also a rather classic fantasy trope.

In short, I do feel that an underground expansion has some benefits over those other options.