Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

Well it sort of does matter. People were excited about Zaralek at first, and clearly the gameplay sidelined that excitement. That shows that people are willing to give an Underground experience a shot, Blizzard just has to provide the proper gameplay for it.



Well the simple reality is that both the underground sections of Azeroth and Goblins and Gnomes are integral parts of Warcraft. There are fantasy fans who like underground areas and concepts, there are Warcraft fans who like Goblins and Gnomes, and there are fantasy and warcraft fans who like steampunk fantasy. Every expansion isn't going to appeal to every player, and it isn't good for the long term health of the game to not take risks. For example, I personally didn't want or like Shadowlands, but I appreciated Blizzard doing the expansion and taking the risk. Same applies for MoP. I'm sure plenty of standard WC players felt MoP was the dumbest concept ever, but in the end WoW is better for it happening instead of Blizzard playing it safe.

I believe an underground expansion is in that same vein of risk taking, which is why I believe it's highly likely to happen.

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Gee, I have no idea....

Blizzard gave Underground a shot and it missed terribly. Blizzard will not bank an entire 1.5-year expansion cycle on a concept that didn't land the first time.

Yeah, there are people who like Goblins and Gnomes. Majority of the player base despises them though. Sorry you had to find out this way. Once again, Blizzard will not bank an entire 1.5-year expansion on a comedic relief race.

There's a reason a majority of the expansion deals with either Elves, Orcs or Humans. It's because people love them. Pandaria is the one exception, and once again, it was an uphill people that Blizzard lost initially and had to claw back by shifting into Orcs.

Yes, there's a fraction of people who want nothing more than an Underground expansion. Yes, there's a fraction of people who want nothing more than Goblin/Gnomes in the spotlight. But you don't make games for fractions.

Also, calling Cataclysm a "dragon expansion" simply due to the big bad guy being a dragon is a bit of a joke as well. There's very little Dragon-themed content. (Only Blackwing Descent, really). Even Dragon Soul is more Old God than Dragon.

[Toho]

Im teamrevamp but i hardly believe it will happen anymore, but im still on board with the other side of azeroth or void or something else than just going all in underground, none of the "descriptions" sold me on it at all so far.

Blizzard isn't a company to put in the effort anymore.
Its all about squeezing as much as you can with as little as effort as possible, a world revamp would require a lot of investment. And its not just the world that would be revamped, it would be the game play loop as well. Rushing to max level to unlock new content is a dated concept so it would need to be changed while at the same time they would need to keep allllllllll the old content still present and accessible.

Yeah it ain't happening.

[Shadowferal]

Now there's an idea; have archaeologists spelunking the old caverns where Deathwing flew out of.

[Darkarath]

Well that's the thing; I never doubt Blizzard's art department. If they put out the concepts and themes at BlizzCon, they can sell the expansion. Heck, Zaralek Caverns was hotly anticipated until people actually played it. It all comes down to the execution.

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I would also support a revamp if that's the direction Blizzard wants to go. I agree that the game could use some upgrades in its zones. However, if Toweliee is correct, there will be no revamp in retail WoW.

I do believe the benefit that an Undergound expansion would have over the other side of Azeroth or a Void expansion is a more grounded element and a more known element that is more based in classic Warcraft. Undermine for example comes from the same old school pedigree as Pandaria, Broken Isles, Northrend, and Kul'Tiras. It's not part of the newer (Danseur) Warcraft concepts that we've experienced in recent years. There's also a pretty hard limit on an underground expansion that gives it a bit more gravity and believability, that would benefit the game moving into its 20th anniversary. Underground exploration and venturing to a planet's core to find hidden realms are also rather classic fantasy fair.

In short, I do feel that an underground expansion has some benefits over those other options.

We are not getting an Underground expansion. At least not in 11.0.

Zaralek was an experiment, and while I enjoyed the zone, it seems clear that the general public see it as a failure, whatever the reasons for that might be.

Blizzard tried something new, and if Zaralek Caverns would have been a huge success, MAYBE they might have thought about the possibility of an Underground expansion in 12.0 or 13.0. But they will not risk a full Underground expansion when they had not even tested the waters first.

This is Vashj'ir again. The only Underwater zone of the game (and vastly superior to Zaralek Caverns IMO). It did not work for most players, so no more underwater zones. If they did not do one with Nazjatar, I just do not see them doing one ever again, although I would love to be proven wrong.

[Skildar]

I enjoyed zaralek, it might be the only zone in dragonflight that has some character. It has denizens that tell stories, I was very satisfied with the patch.

Not sure an underground expansion is something I would encourage though

[Teriz]

Blizzard gave Underground a shot and it missed terribly. Blizzard will not bank an entire 1.5-year expansion cycle on a concept that didn't land the first time.

Here's the thing though; The next expansion was already well underway when Blizzard released Zaralek Caverns to the public, so the idea that they were sitting on their hands on deciding the next expansion's thematic while 10.1.5 was active is just silly. The next expansion's theme was already decided before Dragonflight was even released, and if it was decided to be an underground expansion, there could be protests outside of Blizzard HQ about how much fans hate Zaralek Caverns and that underground expansion would still be coming out regardless.

Yeah, there are people who like Goblins and Gnomes. Majority of the player base despises them though. Sorry you had to find out this way. Once again, Blizzard will not bank an entire 1.5-year expansion on a comedic relief race.

Again, is there a poll out there that states this, or are we basing this information on personal viewpoints and anecdotes?

There's a reason a majority of the expansion deals with either Elves, Orcs or Humans. It's because people love them. Pandaria is the one exception, and once again, it was an uphill people that Blizzard lost initially and had to claw back by shifting into Orcs.

Yes, there's a fraction of people who want nothing more than an Underground expansion. Yes, there's a fraction of people who want nothing more than Goblin/Gnomes in the spotlight. But you don't make games for fractions.

No, they make games based on what direction they feel the game needs to go. There's no way to gauge the popularity or success of something until it is actually attempted. I'm sure the idea of headlining Sylvanas for 3 expansions and sending us to the realm of death to fight WoW's version of satan sounded great until it was actually attempted. That's just how things work out sometimes.

Also, calling Cataclysm a "dragon expansion" simply due to the big bad guy being a dragon is a bit of a joke as well. There's very little Dragon-themed content. (Only Blackwing Descent, really). Even Dragon Soul is more Old God than Dragon.

Uh we dealt with dragons at pretty much every step in Cataclysm. We fought infinite drakes, twilight drakes, chromatic drakes, undead drakes, and everything in between. I even remember riding on the back of dragons in Grim Batol for no reason. Heck, Thrall became the Earthwarder, pretty much replacing a black dragon in order to make Dragon Soul operational.

And why did we need Dragon Soul? To kill the big black dragon on the cover of the expansion.

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We are not getting an Underground expansion. At least not in 11.0.

Zaralek was an experiment, and while I enjoyed the zone, it seems clear that the general public see it as a failure, whatever the reasons for that might be.

Blizzard tried something new, and if Zaralek Caverns would have been a huge success, MAYBE they might have thought about the possibility of an Underground expansion in 12.0 or 13.0. But they will not risk a full Underground expansion when they had not even tested the waters first.

This is Vashj'ir again. The only Underwater zone of the game (and vastly superior to Zaralek Caverns IMO). It did not work for most players, so no more underwater zones. If they did not do one with Nazjatar, I just do not see them doing one ever again, although I would love to be proven wrong.

Again, 11.0 was already well underway when Zaralek was even announced. So if Blizzard had an underground expansion in mind for 11.0, Zaralek's reception wouldn't have changed their direction. It's truly weird that people believe that Blizzard has such a conservative mindset after Mists of Pandaria. After MoP anything is on the table for an expansion theme as long as it relates in some fashion to Warcraft.

[Makorus]

Here's the thing though; The next expansion was already well underway when Blizzard released Zaralek Caverns to the public, so the idea that they were sitting on their hands on deciding the next expansion's thematic while 10.1.5 was active is just silly. The next expansion's theme was already decided before Dragonflight was even released, and if it was decided to be an underground expansion, there could be protests outside of Blizzard HQ about how much fans hate Zaralek Caverns and that underground expansion would still be coming out regardless.



Again, is there a poll out there that states this, or are we basing this information on personal viewpoints and anecdotes?



No, they make games based on what direction they feel the game needs to go. There's no way to gauge the popularity or success of something until it is actually attempted. I'm sure the idea of headlining Sylvanas for 3 expansions and sending us to the realm of death to fight WoW's version of satan sounded great until it was actually attempted. That's just how things work out sometimes.



Uh we dealt with dragons at pretty much every step in Cataclysm. We fought infinite drakes, twilight drakes, chromatic drakes, undead drakes, and everything in between. I even remember riding on the back of dragons in Grim Batol for no reason. Heck, Thrall became the Earthwarder, pretty much replacing a black dragon in order to make Dragon Soul operational.

And why did we need Dragon Soul? To kill the big black dragon on the cover of the expansion.

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Again, 11.0 was already well underway when Zaralek was even announced. So if Blizzard had an underground expansion in mind for 11.0, Zaralek's reception wouldn't have changed their direction. It's truly weird that people believe that Blizzard has such a conservative mindset after Mists of Pandaria. After MoP anything is on the table for an expansion theme as long as it relates in some fashion to Warcraft.

You can plug your ears as much as you want, but there is a reason goblins/gnomes are the least played races in the game, and every single expansion is either about Orcs/Humans/Elves/Dragons.

Blizzard is a company. They don't give a shit about basing games on "what direction they feel the game needs to go". They follow the money, and they mold future releases around that to get to that point.

[Swnem]

50 zones, but small zones



also :
BfA > 8 zones
SL > 7 zones
DF > 7 zones

i don't know where you saw 4 zones

Sure, so we are establishing that this revamp would not just be at expansion launch but patches to finish up. Btw what do you plan to do with 50 zones? How are you gonna do the leveling? 5 zones for each level?
Being a zone means a contained story. Them being smaller actually means more dense questing content and more work. Azure span might be large but the questing is not. Dragonflight zones are purposely large for dragonflying.

You are still asking for the moon here.

So, what is this world revamp? Maybe rather than this abstract idea you need to come down to earth and tell us what your view of a revamp is.

Is it revamping 10 zones and make leveling on those, leaving the rest as is? Which zones get updated? Which zones don't? Where do you update quests? Where do you leave as is? Who is getting the axe? These are things this fabled "world revamp dream" does not bring into account. I don't think you have have an idea of what this revamp would be. It's a generic idea not thought out. How would this revamp work? How would we not get into content draught? How many delays and raid tiers would you be willing to pay for this? Cause those are the real questions the devs got to answer.
Does partial world revamp really have the same ring to it?

[Teriz]

You can plug your ears as much as you want, but there is a reason goblins/gnomes are the least played races in the game, and every single expansion is either about Orcs/Humans/Elves/Dragons.

Blizzard is a company. They don't give a shit about basing games on "what direction they feel the game needs to go". They follow the money, and they mold future releases around that to get to that point.

Well actually Goblins are more played than Worgens, Dwarves, Gnomes, and quite a few allied races. Hardly the least played race in the game.

https://wowanalytica.com/statistics

[Cheezits]

I think Towellie seeing A SINGULAR cave or cave zone is more likely then him seeing five zones worth of caves and the title World of Cavecraft.

[Darkarath]

Again, 11.0 was already well underway when Zaralek was even announced. So if Blizzard had an underground expansion in mind for 11.0, Zaralek's reception wouldn't have changed their direction. It's truly weird that people believe that Blizzard has such a conservative mindset after Mists of Pandaria. After MoP anything is on the table for an expansion theme as long as it relates in some fashion to Warcraft.

Exactly Teriz. As 11.0 was already well underway when Zaralek was announced, they will not change their idea for 11.0.

Your reasoning here is that Blizzard is releasing the first underground zone since Deepholm, and, without knowing how players would react to it, betting everything on a full underground expansion in 11.0.

I honestly fail to see your logic.

[Teriz]

I think Towellie seeing A SINGULAR cave or cave zone is more likely then him seeing five zones worth of caves and the title World of Cavecraft.

He pretty much said the next expansion would be in a cave. I don't see a scenario where we begin an expansion in a cave zone and then instantly exit the cave zone. If we're going underground, the continent is going to be underground.

[Pyrophax]

Sure, so we are establishing that this revamp would not just be at expansion launch but patches to finish up. Btw what do you plan to do with 50 zones? How are you gonna do the leveling? 5 zones for each level?
Being a zone means a contained story. Them being smaller actually means more dense questing content and more work. Azure span might be large but the questing is not. Dragonflight zones are purposely large for dragonflying.

Not only for dragonflying. Its also filled with pvp sub-zones, event zones etc. Its like a blanket that you could fill with anything. And one more thing - it gives the "feel" of large zone, wast forests. And not some park with 3-5 trees.
If anything new rewamped zones in EK and Kalimdor should be same. Wide and open, with different sub-zones and "room" to grow and add material in future.

[Teriz]

Exactly Teriz. As 11.0 was already well underway when Zaralek was announced, they will not change their idea for 11.0.

Your reasoning here is that Blizzard is releasing the first underground zone since Deepholm, and, without knowing how players would react to it, betting everything on a full underground expansion in 11.0.

I honestly fail to see your logic.

I'm not aware of any point in WoW's history where Blizzard knew how players would react to an expansion before they released it, they simply released the expansion and watched what happened afterwards. Again, MoP is a prime example, where the expansion was openly ridiculed at the event it was announced, yet it went on to become one of the most beloved expansions in WoW's history. An underground expansion is in no way anywhere close to an apple cart flipper as MoP was, especially coming out right after Cataclysm.

I'm failing to see how you're missing the logic.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

He pretty much said the next expansion would be in a cave. I don't see a scenario where we begin an expansion in a cave zone and then instantly exit the cave zone. If we're going underground, the continent is going to be underground.

Why towellie would be spoiling the entirety of next expansion like over a month before?

Why other streamers don't do it aswell?

Im not saying it won't happen, but it would be very dumb for towelliee to just pretty much spoil everything and a theme and where expansion happens is one of the biggest things.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Well, Blizzard is renowned for quick course correction. Ohhh wait..

Look if this goes through this is going to be fun as fuck from a misery standpoint but yeah I think it makes it clear that the obvious path of least resistance is too expensive for them and that essentially means a lot more than just the fact they denied revamp but went ahead with a concept that could never fly if they just let unbiased focus tester tell them otherwise.

[Teriz]

Why towellie would be spoiling the entirety of next expansion like over a month before?

Why other streamers don't do it aswell?

Like I said, there is a possibility that Blizzard gave him the green light to do it, because there simply isn't a lot of hype for WoW's next expansion right now especially after Ybarra nixed the pirate idea. In fact, I completely expect Blizzard to start intentionally dropping leaks and hints in the next few weeks leading up to BlizzCon.

[Pyrophax]

Well actually Goblins are more played than Worgens, Dwarves, Gnomes, and quite a few allied races. Hardly the least played race in the game.

https://wowanalytica.com/statistics

I think that g&g should not be whole expansion. Patch or two in different expansion is good, I think. Like Undermine with Goblins and some sort of Uld-structure with Gnomes. Or Liberation of Gnomeregan, again.

[Darkarath]

I'm not aware of any point in WoW's history where Blizzard knew how players would react to an expansion before they released it, they simply released the expansion and watched what happened afterwards. Again, MoP is a prime example, where the expansion was openly ridiculed at the event it was announced, yet it went on to become one of the most beloved expansions in WoW's history. An underground expansion is in no way anywhere close to an apple cart flipper as MoP was, especially coming out right after Cataclysm.

I'm failing to see how you're missing the logic.

Blizzard constantly keeps track of how players react to stuff. You just said it yourself. They release something and see how well or bad it does.

By your own logic, they would not bet everything on an underground expansion without seeing how it does first.

Zaralek was an experiment. It did not work out. No full underground expansion (if it ever was planned for 12.0 or 13.0, something that I see as highly unlikely).

Vashj'ir was an experiment. It did not work out. No full underwater expansion ever.

Anyway, in one month we will know what happens.

IMHO Blizzard is not in a position to risk WoW to a full underground expansion. More important, it was not in a position to risk WoW to a full underground expansion in SL, when they should have been planning Zaralek Caverns and 12.0.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Like I said, there is a possibility that Blizzard gave him the green light to do it, because there simply isn't a lot of hype for WoW's next expansion right now especially after Ybarra nixed the pirate idea. In fact, I completely expect Blizzard to start intentionally dropping leaks and hints in the next few weeks leading up to BlizzCon.

Like I said, there is a possibility that Blizzard gave him the green light to do it, because there simply isn't a lot of hype for WoW's next expansion right now. In fact, I completely expect Blizzard to start intentionally dropping leaks and hints in the next few weeks leading up to BlizzCon.

I don't really see the hype generated by that outside of this forum much - Towelliee is an OG of wow and twitch but when it comes to numbers, he's not that big to create a echochamber of hype about something, i think normal "datamining" stuff get more views overall on social media than his posts about it, i might be wrong about the last one but im too lazy to go over his tweets.

I think that towelliee is fucking with people in some way and also saying a little bit of truth.