Midnight 12.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Segus1992]

I'm not aware of any point in WoW's history where Blizzard knew how players would react to an expansion before they released it, they simply released the expansion and watched what happened afterwards. Again, MoP is a prime example, where the expansion was openly ridiculed at the event it was announced, yet it went on to become one of the most beloved expansions in WoW's history. An underground expansion is in no way anywhere close to an apple cart flipper as MoP was, especially coming out right after Cataclysm.

I'm failing to see how you're missing the logic.

Uh, do you actually think what was ridiculed and subsequently praised about MoP was the continent? What was ridiculed was Pandaren, the "family friendly" feel, and the "China friendly" approach. What was praised was the class design and content release schedule and quality. Neither related to the continent.

Releasing an expansion entirely underground is exactly the sort of thing you'd see as a big risk, simply because of the inherent lack of freedom for the player and freedom of design for the developers. No WoW expansion has come even close to something as bold as "you will be in a cave the entire expansion!" as the main selling point.

[Xilurm]

My hope for whatever future zones they make is that they don't make them flying only. Thaldraszus is a good example of this. No way to enter on foot, and the terrain is so uneven you ain't really going to go anywhere on foot/ground mount.

[Teriz]

I think that g&g should not be whole expansion. Patch or two in different expansion is good, I think. Like Undermine with Goblins and some sort of Uld-structure with Gnomes. Or Liberation of Gnomeregan, again.

Yeah I don't believe that even Undermine would be full goblin. More likely it'll be a cosmopolitan port with a variety of different peoples living it in, much like Booty Bay or Gadgetzhan. Beyond that, I could see Kobolds, Nerubians, Trolls, killer robots, mushroom monsters, and other creatures making an appearance in such an expansion, which is why I think it has some potential.

[Segus1992]

I don't really see the hype generated by that outside of this forum much - Towelliee is an OG of wow and twitch but when it comes to numbers, he's not that big to create a echochamber of hype about something, i think normal "datamining" stuff get more views overall on social media than his posts about it, i might be wrong about the last one but im too lazy to go over his tweets.

I think that towelliee is fucking with people in some way and also saying a little bit of truth.

I think occam's razor applies here: Towelliee is lying for views.

[Teriz]

Uh, do you actually think what was ridiculed and subsequently praised about MoP was the continent? What was ridiculed was Pandaren, the "family friendly" feel, and the "China friendly" approach. What was praised was the class design and content release schedule and quality. Neither related to the continent.

Releasing an expansion entirely underground is exactly the sort of thing you'd see as a big risk, simply because of the inherent lack of freedom for the player and freedom of design for the developers. No WoW expansion has come even close to something as bold as "you will be in a cave the entire expansion!" as the main selling point.

The entire theme was ridiculed. It was ridiculed so badly that Metzen had to tell the crowd that the expansion wasn't a joke during the announcement itself. I use that example to drive home the point that Blizzard doesn't means test their expansion theme, they just go with what they feel people will like and sees what happens next.

Again, I simply disagree that an underground expansion is harder sell than an expansion about a parody of China with kung fu Panda people right after we had an expansion with Old Gods and Deathwing.

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I think occam's razor applies here: Towelliee is lying for views.

I don't know, he very well could be. However he also said that a revamp isn't happening in retail either. So if he's lying about all of it, he'll gain viewers in the short term, but that's going to hurt his viewership in the long term. Especially when he can still gain viewers by not saying any of that stuff at all. He definitely wasn't this specific in the previous cycle.

[Makorus]

Well actually Goblins are more played than Worgens, Dwarves, Gnomes, and quite a few allied races. Hardly the least played race in the game.

https://wowanalytica.com/statistics

Yup, 0.30% more than Dwarves. 2% rather than 1.7%. Dismantles my entire argument. And just like Gnomes, Dwarves and Worgen, they are getting no content whatsoever. At least they get used for comedy relief unlike Worgen and Dwarves, I guess

[Teriz]

I think that towelliee is fucking with people in some way and also saying a little bit of truth.

Hey, that's always a possibility. I never said any of this is 100%. Merely that it is entirely possible given the current circumstances.

Yup, 0.30% more than Dwarves. 2% rather than 1.7%. Dismantles my entire argument. And just like Gnomes, Dwarves and Worgen, they are getting no content whatsoever. At least they get used for comedy relief unlike Worgen and Dwarves, I guess

Eh, I wouldn't bet on that. Gilneas and Gnomeregan are both prime targets for revamp very soon.

[Darkarath]

it wasn't the zone itself that failed, it was the content of the zone, which was essentially timegating and hunting for rare, that screwed things up
otherwise zaralek has been very well received, and it's not for nothing that they've declared their intention to reuse the technology in the future

Failure is failure, whatever the reasons.

And I repeat, I enjoyed the zone, and I hope (and I am pretty sure) that they will make more underground zones in the future.

A full underground expansion? No. Not a chance IMO.

They always try to have very different settings and themes in any expansion. And you might say that they can make it work, because they can make several caverns so big and different that it would not seem underground, and while I agree with you, many would not. Underground would just be underground for them.

Hell, people complained a lot about ''too much green'' after Tanaan and Legion, and I would say that Legion had very different settings. Imagine the shitshow if we were to get a full expansion underground.

[Ersula]

I think that towelliee is fucking with people in some way and also saying a little bit of truth.

"The next expansion takes place in a cave"

The most famous cave in the game, much to the undermine's chagrin, is the caverns of time.

Multiverse Expansion.

All kidding aside, if he does know anything about the new expansion, there's no reason for him not to tell everything he knows. So at most, he's playing a game of telephone with the vaguest of insider information.

Failure is failure, whatever the reasons.

Well, either way they wouldn't be changing the basis of the expansion based on its reception: 11.0 would have been well past the conceptual stage by the time 10.1 came out.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

TI don't know, he very well could be. However he also said that a revamp isn't happening in retail either. So if he's lying about all of it, he'll gain viewers in the short term, but that's going to hurt his viewership in the long term. Especially when he can still gain viewers by not saying any of that stuff at all. He definitely wasn't this specific in the previous cycle.

honestly the viewers on twitch are usually so forgiving no matter what certain streamer say, especially when towellie can just say that he was f'n with people and people in chat probably will clap that he did a good job.

When it comes to world revamp at this point i believe more that it will happen in classic+ rather than on retail, i would not like that at all but i feel like it might happen..

[FossilFree]

I could see part of the expansion being underground, just not the whole expansion.

If they went with a south seas sailing expansion, Undermine could be the Horde capital for the expansion. Alliance could maybe have Bloodsail Hold or something (friendly through rogue's hall and Mathias Shaw connection? I could see it).

[Lady Atia]

It would however start on the backfoot by having to prove it's a good idea, rather than stuff like the Dragon Isles which conversely has to prove it's not a bad one.
Underground is a very specific concept which the average player likely isnt immediately onboard with, similar to the Shadowlands. It could be good, but it has that extra hurdle to cross.

A world revamp has a whole bunch of fallbacks that it could go to if the actual world revamp isnt all that it's cracked up to be. Several well known locations that could be mined for interesting dungeons or quests. The all important nostalgia factor is very much in play in this case.

MoP is exactly what we are talking about with an underground expansion. Players were against it to start with, and had to prove it was good. Conversely expansions like BfA has more leeway because the concept is so appealing that it had to repeatedly prove it was bad for the mood to sour.


In short: An underground expansion will be a bad idea because Blizzard doesnt have enough goodwill, or enough support around the Underground concept to sell an expansion on that alone.
Maybe if Zaralek cavern was absolutely beloved by the community and everyone were clamoring for more content there. But they are not, most people seem quite happy to leave it behind, even if some people like it. I loved Vashj'ir, but that doesnt mean I think it would be a good idea for a full expansion, just that I would love it.

Yeah, I think a hollowed earth expansion could work as a follow-up after the world revamp and Avaloren are done, but it needs more setup first. Right now, they need the nostalgia bonus to get all the players back from the Shadowlands exodus.

[Segus1992]

The entire theme was ridiculed. It was ridiculed so badly that Metzen had to tell the crowd that the expansion wasn't a joke during the announcement itself. I use that example to drive home the point that Blizzard doesn't means test their expansion theme, they just go with what they feel people will like and sees what happens next.

Again, I simply disagree that an underground expansion is harder sell than an expansion about a parody of China with kung fu Panda people right after we had an expansion with Old Gods and Deathwing.

Yes, MoP was ridiculed. It also sold poorly initially because of that. Not to mention that it wasn't even the content itself that was ridiculed but the premise, the continent was within reason and nothing crazy. Having an expansion that's entirely in a cave is a far bigger risk because it's the content itself that could potentially be ridiculed.

I can definitely see an expansion that has a LOT of underground content, but primarily let alone exclusively? No way.

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When it comes to world revamp at this point i believe more that it will happen in classic+ rather than on retail, i would not like that at all but i feel like it might happen..

No chance in hell Classic gets a world revamp, Blizzard are already terrified of making changes to the game for one reason or another.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

No chance in hell Classic gets a world revamp, Blizzard are already terrified of making changes to the game for one reason or another.

I mean i hope it won't but lately i started feeling that it might actually happen for some reason.

[Lazarel]

I'm starting to think if Blizz does not do a fresh revamp next expansion it will be a huge missed opportunity.
I mean it would be perfect for a 30 / 20 year anniversary and a huge opportunity to attract a big ammount of new players with a potential Game Pass / wow subscription merge due to the recent Microsoft Aquisition and good marketing.

If they do a space expansion with some cool new gimmicks /tech and a strong authentic theme and setting I can see this as a W too but way less than a fresh revamp.

If they do yet another island with a few new zones, less and less people will care and the game will get more and more bloated. And if they do an entire underground expansion like Zeralak but more zones and nothing innovative the game will die to me.

[Nymrohd]

I am confused why people hear Hollow World expac and think "Cave"

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I am confused why people hear Hollow World expac and think "Cave"

To be fair unless you're a conspiracy theorist or heavily involved with "nonsense", the concept of Agartha being this lush beautiful place is very foreign to most normal functioning people. (Not a jab, I am just saying that most people don't know about the conspiracy side Agartha)

Also even then this concept really is not going to work because you're still putting players in a claustrophobic environment against a lush backdrop that has no key function or bearing in the universe beyond again just putting us somewhere because we need to placed somewhere.

[Segus1992]

I am confused why people hear Hollow World expac and think "Cave"

What else would anyone think, given that "underground area" means "cave" in human speech?

[Nymrohd]

To be fair unless you're a conspiracy theorist or heavily involved with "nonsense", the concept of Agartha being this lush beautiful place is very foreign to most normal functioning people. (Not a jab, I am just saying that most people don't know about the conspiracy side Agartha)

Also even then this concept really is not going to work because you're still putting players in a claustrophobic environment against a lush backdrop that has no key function or bearing in the universe beyond again just putting us somewhere because we need to placed somewhere.

I mean I think Mystara's Hollow world. Heck Sigil works like that as well. And I just don't agree that it is claustrophobic.

Plus when it comes to the in-universe explanation . . . we saw this exact thing on Argus. Argus WAS hollow, the shell had just cracked. What if all world souls ARE hollow worlds with the soul shining inside them like a sun? It would not be a retcon or recontextualizing, if anything it'd make sense.

[Darkarath]

I'm starting to think if Blizz does not do a fresh revamp next expansion it will be a huge missed opportunity.
I mean it would be perfect for a 30 / 20 year anniversary and a huge opportunity to attract a big ammount of new players with a potential Game Pass / wow subscription merge due to the recent Microsoft Aquisition and good marketing.

If they do a space expansion with some cool new gimmicks /tech and a strong authentic theme and setting I can see this as a W too but way less than a fresh revamp.

If they do yet another island with a few new zones, less and less people will care and the game will get more and more bloated. And if they do an entire underground expansion like Zeralak but more zones and nothing innovative the game will die to me.

Yeah, it is crystal clear that the only thing that might bring attention to WoW in a major way would be a revamp.

Both for new and especially for old WoW players, which IMO, unless there is a WoW 1.5 or a WoW 2.0 (not going to happen anytime soon, sadly), are the target of Blizzard efforts, NOTHING would make them more interested than a world revamp.

Avaloren, the South Seas, the Other Side of Azeroth, Underground expansion... you name it. New and old players would see that as more of the same. It does not matter how good the story or the systems or the continents are, it would just be more of the same for them. Now if you make a world revamp, even if everything else is bad, it would at least sell more than any other possible expansion. That the players stay playing after buying 11.0 is another topic.

But yes I agree very much with your take and especially with your last paragraph. Even if 11.0 is the long awaited world revamp, the best expansion ever, unless WoW changes fundamentally how it works, people will keep leaving.