The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Helothar]

Yeah you haven't missed anything juicy.

Thanks for the confirmation <3

[huth]

Well Titans and First Ones are both Order aligned in some way. Its definitely possible the Titans are connected to the First ones in a way that the other cosmic big boys aren't. Not saying they are the same thing, but perhaps the First Ones took special care in creating the Titans or whatever.

The First Ones made all 6 forces. They aren't aligned with one in particular. There is no reason to believe the Titans have a special connection at this point. They're just the force we know the most about.

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The problem I have with the Cosmology Chart and the representation of each army is that it's way too ambiguous and intertwined.

You'd think the Cosmology is divided clearly, but it's not. You have Titans who are Order, but certain Titans also dabble in Chaos (Sargeras) or Life (Eonar) or other such elements. Or the Legion is supposed to be the epitomy of Chaos, but they're absolutely organized and ruled by a heirarchy dictated by a Titan. The Legion itself is an example of Order, not chaos. The ones who should be representing Chaos is actually the Old Gods, who aren't actually organized and whose corrupting influence spreads from them merely existing. Their minions also tend to fight each other, like we see with Blackrock Spire having Black Dragonflight and Elemental Lords fighting each other for control of the domain, even though they are both servants to the Old Gods. That is true chaos.

And then you have the weird situation with Shadow/Void being commonly associated with both Death and Chaos. You have the 'Shadowlands' which is a property of Death. Necromancy and Warlock Afflictions are also both related to being 'Shadow' spells. The lines aren't really defined, and they're way too blurred to make any real sense of it. The Cosmic Forces don't really mean anything if we're just looking at the Old Gods or the Legion or the Titans as what they're supposed to be and what themes they represent.

Because all of those are really just parts of a larger whole. They aren't actually independent.

[KurtMash]

Could the origin of Incarnates be somehow related to the experiments conducted by Tyr? We know he was playing around with infusing different types of magic into dragons.

Or perhaps <tinfoil hat on> it was a rebel Keeper Innaria who stole some of the experiments of Tyr, brougth them to Avaloren which contained raw primal energies originating from the fissure in Khaz Algar. There, she fed the dragons these primal energies, creating Incarnates in the process. While Odyn believes that the Heretics commited crimes against Innaria, maybe it was Innaria who recruited the Heretics? </tinfoil hat off>

[Jaggler]

The problem I have with the Cosmology Chart and the representation of each army is that it's way too ambiguous and intertwined.

You'd think the Cosmology is divided clearly, but it's not. You have Titans who are Order, but certain Titans also dabble in Chaos (Sargeras) or Life (Eonar) or Death (Argus). Or the Legion is supposed to be the epitomy of Chaos, but they're absolutely organized under a heirarchy defined by a (former) Titan. The Legion itself is an example of an army of Order, not representative of primal Chaos. The ones who should be representing Chaos are actually the Old Gods, who aren't actually organized and whose corrupting influence spreads from them merely existing. Their minions also tend to fight each other, like we see with Blackrock Spire having Black Dragonflight and Elemental Lords fighting each other for control of the domain, even though they are both servants to the Old Gods. That is true chaos. But the Old Gods aren't Chaos, they're Shadow/Void for whatever reason.

And then you have the weird situation with Shadow/Void being commonly associated with both Death and Chaos. You have the 'Shadowlands' which is a property of Death. Necromancy and Warlock Afflictions are also both related to being 'Shadow' spells. The lines aren't really defined, and they're way too blurred to make any real sense of it. The Cosmic Forces don't really mean anything if we're just looking at the Old Gods or the Legion or the Titans as what they're supposed to be and what themes they represent.

well, it's not like the first ones inteded for the Legion to actually exist. The "true" nature of the demons IS chaos, with constant infighting and the corruption of others, but Sargeras usurped that natural state of demons

Regarding necromancy: necromancy has no "school" you can do necromancy with shadow magic, fel, light, probably with arcane as well. Margrave Sin'dane talks about it in the questline of purifying lordaeron

[Triceron]

well, it's not like the first ones inteded for the Legion to actually exist. The "true" nature of the demons IS chaos, with constant infighting and the corruption of others, but Sargeras usurped that natural state of demons

We've rarely ever seen that side of demons. Almost every demon we encounter is part of the Legion in some way.

[Ersula]

The First Ones made all 6 forces. They aren't aligned with one in particular. There is no reason to believe the Titans have a special connection at this point. They're just the force we know the most about.

I think it's more like the forces already existed, they were just all mixed together in big useless wads of swirling energy. With no clear distinction between anything. And the First ones took it upon themselves to create something out of that metaphysical muck, not unlike tending to a garden. I theorized about what would be the point of each of their creations:

First: Zereth Mortis. The Creation of Afterlives. First Created to veil the world of living from the dead. Earliest protoforms are developed, as well as the apparatus to implant them with anima, and implant world souls in the bodies of gods (The Sepulcher of the First Ones)
Second: Zereth Lumin. The Projector of Light. A cosmic canon that blasts the three layers of reality with light. The light allows the living to distinguish reality from illusion. This is where the Naaru were first designed.
Third: Zereth Umbra. The Well of the Mind. The necessary opposite to Zereth Lumin. The unknown inner workings of all life, and also what allows the material & immaterial to unmake itself. This is where emotion & thought originate from.
Fourth: Zereth Ordus. The Unseen Threads. Created to weave forces of energy throughout the universe without breaking down, which would eventually become known as the Arcane. And to create a barrier that would maintain linear time. This would be also be where the First Ones' shock troopers would be built, for the purpose of fending off anyone who tried to break down the First One's design in the realm of the living: The Titans.
Fifth: Zereth Tamult. The Prison of Disorder. The Architects of Entropy worked to create a system that could manage cosmic horrors that were incompatible with an ordered universe. Much like the pathways of magic & time, the "twisting nether" was meant to keep free radicals as far from the First Ones inner workings as possible.
Last: Zereth Vitae. The Incarnation of Life. Anima from the Great Cycle passes through here, where it is filtered to remove any detectable corruption before beginning the cycle of life again. This is where the Emerald Dream was invented.

The problem I have with the Cosmology Chart and the representation of each army is that it's way too ambiguous and intertwined.

You'd think the Cosmology is divided clearly, but it's not. You have Titans who are Order, but certain Titans also dabble in Chaos (Sargeras) or Life (Eonar) or other such elements. Or the Legion is supposed to be the epitomy of Chaos, but they're absolutely organized and ruled by a heirarchy dictated by a Titan. The Legion itself is an example of Order, not chaos. The ones who should be representing Chaos is actually the Old Gods, who aren't actually organized and whose corrupting influence spreads from them merely existing. Their minions also tend to fight each other, like we see with Blackrock Spire having Black Dragonflight and Elemental Lords fighting each other for control of the domain, even though they are both servants to the Old Gods. That is true chaos.

And then you have the weird situation with Shadow/Void being commonly associated with both Death and Chaos. You have the 'Shadowlands' which is a property of Death. Necromancy and Warlock Afflictions are also both related to being 'Shadow' spells. The lines aren't really defined, and they're way too blurred to make any real sense of it. The Cosmic Forces don't really mean anything if we're just looking at the Old Gods or the Legion or the Titans as what they're supposed to be and what themes they represent.

Why do you associate the old god with chaos? They had an empire; that's a very order-oriented thing to do. The Elemental Lords were fighting each other, then the Old Gods put a stop to that by enslaving them. The Elemental War happened before the Black Empire was a thing.

The other thing is magic doesn't evenly equate to the cosmic forces at all. The Titans were given distinct abilities specifically to service their job, not unlike how the Eternal Ones' special abilities were present in their Prototypes, lacking a world soul entirely. This works in the same way a wizard might master shadow magic but that doesn't make him a pawn of the Void Lords.

What is interesting is that the Old Gods, unlike the Void Lords, seem to be aware that the Titans & First Ones were responsible for separating these cosmic forces into distinct group & they know that their way is not the only way.

Do you think most demons have a choice tbf? Lol Sargeras made his ultimatum very clear! Join him or die. Simple as that.

This is true. Kiljaeden & Archimonde were basically tricked into signing up & their entire tribe was suddenly in the Burning Crusade. Which is why I'm pretty disappointed there's supposedly a "new" burning legion with new management. Seems like with Sargeras gone demons should become more benign & we could interact with that cosmic sphere under new pretense.

[Jaggler]

We've rarely ever seen that side of demons. Almost every demon we encounter is part of the Legion in some way.

Well yes, of course because demons have barely played a role since the fall of the legion in Antorus.

[Wangming]

Why do you associate the old god with chaos? They had an empire; that's a very order-oriented thing to do. The Elemental Lords were fighting each other, then the Old Gods put a stop to that by enslaving them. The Elemental War happened before the Black Empire was a thing.

I mean if we look at the cosmology chart, the void and the Old Gods come from Shadow. Fel comes from Chaos and these two forces aren't even adjacent. Shadow is between order and death. it makes sense as well. There is no disorder in nothingness. In fact, Order and Shadow are right next to each other and share the Earth Aspect. Probably explaining why it was that the Earth Warder who was corrupted by the Void and again the Earth Incarnate. They are closest to it from a cosmological standpoint.

[Sydrache]

Scaleface come feed your flock I beg of you. Another month may kill me

[Fahrad Wagner]

Scaleface come feed your flock I beg of you. Another month may kill me

Agreed, we need sustenance

[Ersula]

Based around what Danuser said, the Progenitors created the Cosmic Forces, the Cosmic Pattern, and they allowed these forces to come into motion. The game itself actually further proves this with not just Firims stuff (With the Forces being made seemingly before the Pattern was drawn), but also with the Sepulcher (With us seeing the original fractal at the Heart of the Sepulcher), the Saezurah statements (Where she mentions the Forces and their specific purposes in the pattern), and the Cypher Lore Codex stuff (Where the First Ones encompass everything and nothing at one, where Light and Void require the pattern to exist, and where the First Ones placed different Forces in separate spheres as a way of balance and whatnot). So, it's not just a factor of "Death of the Author".

I think we're describing the same thing with a difference of semantics: They took what was there, sent the Titans to divide it into different groups, then named those groups. So the Cosmic Sphere of order was only "created" once they were delegated as "Order". Before they were "Order" they were merely components. As in, the principal that energy can not be created or destroyed.

[Nebron]

Agreed, we need sustenance

I literally started checking for the fresh news on this thread obsessively this is going to be a loooooong month.

[flan1337]

hey this might be nothing but...

the guild hall theater was renamed to champions rest?

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Old:


No idea when this was updated but interesting because hearthstone is the 'inn' so what is rest in relation to here? We know this blizzard is heavily themed so what if this is something in the next Xpack?

Edit: Hearthstone area also lost their theater

[Triceron]

Why do you associate the old god with chaos? They had an empire; that's a very order-oriented thing to do. The Elemental Lords were fighting each other, then the Old Gods put a stop to that by enslaving them. The Elemental War happened before the Black Empire was a thing.

The Black Empire existed as an extension of the will of the Old Gods. The Old Gods are like a virus or cancer that infected the world. The Black Empire is how this corruption manifests itself, much like the Creep from the Zerg. The Old Gods are primal in a way where their armies don't fall under a strict heirarchy, rather they all exist as agents that have been corrupted and influenced by their will, and their will is as Cho'gall sees it - pure nihilism and the end of the world.

Most of the Old God's agents are merely spawned out of their bodies or spirit. Creatures like the Sha are literally manifestations of a 'Dead' Old God. They aren't created or ordered, they merely exist because of the everlasting wills of the Old Gods. Old Gods are basically a physical manifestation of Chaos theory. They are a living butterfly effect, where things like the Curse of Flesh has had completely unpredictable results, so haphazard that it ended up creating the very Mortal Races that now oppose the Old Gods/Void Lords. That is an example of how the Old God's aren't actually organized. Their influence merely spreads, yet they don't seem to care about having direct control over everything that their influence corrupts; they just happen to corrupt because it is their essence to do so. This is opposite of the Legion, who literally corrupt for the very purpose of bringing races into the Legion itself.

I'd say the Old Gods probably have a similarity to the Botani and Cosmic property of Life, where if unchecked they would merely spread their influence and overgrow/consume everything in their path. The difference would be the purpose, where Life is bound to the cycle of Life/Death/Rebirth, while Old Gods are like a cancer that progresses towards oblivion.

[Ersula]

The Black Empire existed as an extension of their will, of the Old Gods merely existing as a 'virus' that infected the world. The Black Empire is how this corruption manifests itself, much like the Creep from the Zerg. The Old Gods are primal in a way where their armies don't fall under a strict heirarchy, rather they all exist as agents that have been corrupted and influenced by their will, and their will is as Cho'gall sees it - pure nihilism and the end of the world.

Like most of the Old God's agents aren't created, they're merely spawned out of their bodies or spirit at random. Creatures like the Sha are literally manifestations of a 'Dead' Old God. They aren't ordered to any single purpose, they merely exist because of the everlasting wills of the Old Gods.

They also describe the Black Empire as having slaves & language so the nomenclature isn't purely metaphorical. They were also a literal functioning empire with the Old Gods as the central figures of an organized religion. And the Sha wasn't a normal representation of an Old God's will, they were collectively the "ghost" of an Old God.

[Wangming]

hey this might be nothing but...

the guild hall theater was renamed to champions rest?

New:


Old:


No idea when this was updated but interesting because hearthstone is the 'inn' so what is rest in relation to here? We know this blizzard is heavily themed so what if this is something in the next Xpack?

Edit: Hearthstone area also lost their theater

Hmmmmm. It kinda sounds like a graveyard, but we already had Shadowlands. Maybe we are finally getting the one feature every MMO worth their salt had for ten years?
Hint: it starts with H and ends with ousing.

[milkmustache]

No idea when this was updated but interesting because hearthstone is the 'inn' so what is rest in relation to here? We know this blizzard is heavily themed so what if this is something in the next Xpack?

We can look at this from multiple scales of copium:

Beyond Delusional: We're the Champions, we meet our rest. WoW 2 here we go.

Improbable: Guild Halls are coming to 11.0, called "Champion's Rest", or some form of it.

Possible: Champion's Rest is a city, maybe even capital of 11.0

Probable: Just a nonsense name that's more fun than "The Guild Hall Theater".

[Chickat]

The First Ones aren't Order aligned. They made Order, sure, but they're not aligned to the force itself in any major way. That's just silly. The Titans are the embodiments of Order, and therefore take from the Progenitors in certain, unique ways. However, even they lack every Progenitor gift, as the Progenitors granted the different Cosmic Pantheons with different types of gifts.

The first ones literally ordered the universe. Of course they are. Perhaps they are aligned with every cosmic realm in some way but you can't deny they are much closer to the titans thematically than any other cosmic force.

[Ersula]

We can look at this from multiple scales of copium:

Beyond Delusional: We're the Champions, we meet our rest. WoW 2 here we go.

Improbable: Guild Halls are coming to 11.0, called "Champion's Rest", or some form of it.

Possible: Champion's Rest is a city, maybe even capital of 11.0

Probable: Just a nonsense name that's more fun than "The Guild Hall Theater".

I have to assume they were planning some sort of presentation that they had to cancel so the name change just reflects the "theater" becoming a seated socializing area.

Even then, Order viewed the Black Empire in a negative light regardless, so that could also be a factor here.

They spent a lot of time creating defenses in order to fight Sargeras, who declared war on them. It's likely they only declared war on the Old Gods because they were threatening the fetal world soul they discovered, which they wanted in order to gestate it into another Titan. Otherwise they'd probably have no problem with them.

[Wangming]

Even then, Order viewed the Black Empire in a negative light regardless, so that could also be a factor here.

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Well duh, they are shadow alligned. Quite literally negative light.