1. #24381
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Imo, Cosmic stuff applies when it has little to no link with Azeroth itself, or if extensions of the main story take us away from the planet itself. For example, WoD, parts of Legion, most of TBC, and SL are considered Cosmic imo. Most of BFA, Wrath, Cata, Classic, MoP, and DF are NOT considered Cosmic to me however.
    That is also how I would define cosmic vs non-cosmic.

  2. #24382
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flan1337 View Post
    kinda looks like a mindflyer no? The leaves around it are so interesting.
    Well one game this year centered around mindflayers, was a huge hit. Maybe the same will work with WoW.

  3. #24383
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, there is a chance that there will be some old god shenanigans next expansion. Heck, we might even run into a few void-based raid bosses.

    However there is a gulf of difference between that and us traveling to a void world with eco domes, void lords, and playable Ethereals. That ship has (thankfully) sailed.
    There you go again, "That ship has sailed."

    You don't know that. A few pieces of datamining don't indicate everything we know.

    I think all of this would be so much easier for you if you stopped believing in absolutes for everything. You are always certain you have the correct idea for what the expansion is without ever even considering the nuance and layers that the stories will be told in. If you just remove the tunnel vision you can have productive discussions here.

    I'm not sitting here screaming at you that we're going to k'aresh and having this grand void crusade, but to immediately write it off because you don't want it is reductive and obnoxious to discussion.

  4. #24384
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A lost continent west of Kalimdor that surrounded by storms and is likely influenced by Titans isn’t my idea, but it sounds infinitely more interesting than us going to a void world and running around inside eco domes with Ethereals.
    Except that's where the future is. The worlds may be different. Such Nathreza would be a planet 100% overrun by Dreadlords, so we would have pure horror, not half-hearted as in Shadowlands. K'aresh is the atmosphere of the Void combined with Middle Eastern culture. It can be made interesting.

  5. #24385
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    So by that definition Legion was a cosmic expansion.
    Yet it’s still one of the best expansions that WoW has had.

    BC would also be cosmic by that definition.
    Would that also make DF a cosmic expansion with the emerald dream zone & raid?
    Legion did end with going to Argus though, so it's definitely a cosmic expansion.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #24386
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I mean to be fair every expansion since WoD has been "bunch of disparate shit barely tied together by a common thread" I mean Dragonflight is about literally anything that might have a connection to dragons. Underground void stuff, time travel and emerald dream in the same bloody expansion.
    The issue is how strong the thread is. When people complain about something feeling out of place, they're saying that they think the thread is fraying or snapped entirely. It's not something inherent to the material but dependent on the quality of the writing. We didn't use to talk about "cosmic" writing as much because the way it's been written recently does not feel it's able to smoothly coexist with the rest of the setting. It's a matter of execution.

    The problem that arises then is that it becomes more difficult to please as many people as possible, as they're going to feel resentful when the story moves in a direction they don't prefer because it'll feel like it's incompatible with the story they want to see. If the writers keep creating expectations with countless teases and mystery boxes, that resentment is going to be amplified when they go nowhere for years or get underwhelming payoffs.

    I think Dragonflight's issues are less to do with the breadth of the lore it's covering and more that the actual quality of the writing isn't very removed from Shadowlands or BfA.

  7. #24387
    I am tired of the discourse over the word Cosmic. TBC was literally about demon aliens from green mars, and it gets a pass. Legion gave them spaceships and it is beloved. Shadowlands was hated.

    Why? Because Shadowlands was about the SHADOWLANDS/FIRST ONES and not about Azeroth (the World of Warcraft) or people from it. TBC used the space setting as a cool setting for stories about Warcraft characters and races, so it worked better. Meanwhile Shadowlands is mostly about OC characters (Jailer, Denathrius, Primus, First ONes) and settings even if they tried to tie it to Azeroth through ambiguous ties and aesthetics.

    But Shadowlands was too disconnected and huffing its own farts. That's why it flopped with players. They forgot about Azeroth.

    Please stop with the Cosmic Bad shit, you can do a good expansion in space/with magic, it just can't be done like Shadowlands. Hell, a good chunk of TBC was about Elves in a magic forest, and it was needed to balance the space stuff.
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2023-10-04 at 03:21 PM.

  8. #24388
    The Lightbringer Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Broken Isles were on Azeroth. We didn’t go off world until 7.3.
    Which is exactly what I said could happen with K’aresh.
    It could be a starting zone, and/or it could be patch content.
    But you’re the one saying “oh no that’s cosmic”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh Demon Hunters literally had an ability called Spellbreaker.

  9. #24389
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I am tired of the discourse over the word Cosmic. TBC was literally about demon aliens from green mars, and it gets a pass. Legion gave them spaceships and it is beloved. Shadowlands was hated.
    Personally I like the Cosmic themes in Warcraft. Orcs are literally invading aliens. The cosmic aspect is what makes the Warcraft universe unique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Legion did end with going to Argus though, so it's definitely a cosmic expansion.
    Well, it included Spaceships right from the beginning. Wheras WoD was mostly building settlements, which is a very classical Warcraft vibe. Despite it taking place on a literal alien planet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    I mean we just spent a patch time traveling and now we go to an alternate dimension. What is your benchmark for cosmic?
    I guess it's just a difference between literally "cosmic" & metaphorically "cosmic." When that developer said they alternate between traditional & cosmic expansions for wow, he wasn't talking in the sense of literal cosmology, he just meant "familiar" versus "radical" in terms of traditional fantasy.

    Familiar: Cataclysm. Warlords of Draenor. Battle for Azeroth. Dragonflight.

    Radical: Mists of Pandaria. Legion. Shadowlands. 11.0

    And BC & WotLK just don't count because that was before they established a philosophy with expansions.

  10. #24390
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    There you go again, "That ship has sailed."

    You don't know that. A few pieces of datamining don't indicate everything we know.

    I think all of this would be so much easier for you if you stopped believing in absolutes for everything. You are always certain you have the correct idea for what the expansion is without ever even considering the nuance and layers that the stories will be told in. If you just remove the tunnel vision you can have productive discussions here.

    I'm not sitting here screaming at you that we're going to k'aresh and having this grand void crusade, but to immediately write it off because you don't want it is reductive and obnoxious to discussion.
    Except we already have datamined material from the next expansion, and there’s nothing void-related in it. If we were going on a void crusade, we’d at least get something that indicates such a dramatic adventure on the horizon. Instead, it’s pretty much all Storm and elemental related. So yes, I’m rather confident to pound the gavel on this one.

    Maybe we’ll go punch void lords in the face in voidland in 12.0?

  11. #24391
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Radical: Mists of Pandaria. Legion. Shadowlands. 11.0

    And BC & WotLK just don't count because that was before they established a philosophy with expansions.
    Considering 11.0's first thing datamined is a dwarf kingdom and what is very likely a gryphon, I don't think it's going to be too radical.

    Also an area named after Arthurian Legend that may very well be Lordaeron 2.

  12. #24392
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post

    I think Dragonflight's issues are less to do with the breadth of the lore it's covering and more that the actual quality of the writing isn't very removed from Shadowlands or BfA.
    Absolutely. But I personally still believe tthat a lot of these isolated stories could have carried their own expansions. And I'm salty that will not happen.

  13. #24393
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Which is exactly what I said could happen with K’aresh.
    It could be a starting zone, and/or it could be patch content.
    But you’re the one saying “oh no that’s cosmic”.
    Except going to Argus is directly related to the Burning Legion invasion. Ka’resh has nothing to do with a lost continent west of Kalimdor.

  14. #24394
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Oddly enough, that is something we can agree on.
    But you know, with Emerald Dream, Naz'jatar and Ny'alotha thrown away as patch content, there isn't really any particular setting I want to have. Save for maybe a full on Black Empire expansion.
    Sounds like a very bleak setting. And has the exact issue I point to for setting like these.
    If you have to start the explanation of the setting with "But don't worry, [core defining feature of setting] isnt an issue, because that's only some areas". I immediately check out.
    Don't go into full underground if you have to justfy it by saying it won't look like a cave at all. Don't go to Argus if you have to justify how some areas are not actually destroyed by the Legion. Don't go to the Shadowlands if you have to explain how it looks nothing like what we have been led to believe, and indeed has several perfectly nice zones as well as the awful and miserable ones.

    For ideas like those you go there in a patch or two. You take all the best ideas and use them so that in the end you have a cohesive area that fully feels like what you would expect. Argus to me feels far more like what I would have expected it to be, simply because they could really go all in on showing it as a fel-blasted hellscape with life barely clinging on. Eredath floating in orbit was definitely a bit different, but also wouldnt have been enough to justify a full expansion. Just like how Bastion didnt justify spending all expansion in the Shadowlands.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #24395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Honestly, I do think that K'aresh would be an interesting spot for an expansion. It would be a unique environment but not wholly detached from prior precedent like Shadowlands was. Similarly, it connects to preexisting lore in a more tangible way and we know roughly what to expect and how a victory for the Void bodes for Azeroth.
    It would also probably just work out fine as patch content imo. Depends what they want with it. The world could be mostly deatroyed, but would still have one or two domes with survivors that we need to help escape for example.

    Lots of options are possible, yes it could also be a full blown planet, but idk I am feeling more argus vibes with this.

  16. #24396
    Quote Originally Posted by Krukus View Post
    Except that's where the future is. The worlds may be different. Such Nathreza would be a planet 100% overrun by Dreadlords, so we would have pure horror, not half-hearted as in Shadowlands. K'aresh is the atmosphere of the Void combined with Middle Eastern culture. It can be made interesting.
    It could be. But you could also have an expansion that slowly builds up to K'aresh. Lets us get to really know the Ethereals and their struggle. And then once we go through that portal or whatever, we can have a zone that truly embodies everything we have come to expect from a planet destroyed by a Void Lord.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #24397
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    It would also probably just work out fine as patch content imo. Depends what they want with it. The world could be mostly deatroyed, but would still have one or two domes with survivors that we need to help escape for example.
    It would be cool if the starting zone for Ethereals was similar to Goblins where they need to get the hell out of the planet, but they use cool ecodomes as the zones before they head out.

  18. #24398
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I am tired of the discourse over the word Cosmic. TBC was literally about demon aliens from green mars, and it gets a pass. Legion gave them spaceships and it is beloved. Shadowlands was hated.

    Why? Because Shadowlands was about the SHADOWLANDS/FIRST ONES and not about Azeroth (the World of Warcraft) or people from it. TBC used the space setting as a cool setting for stories about Warcraft characters, so it worked better. Meanwhile Shadowlands is mostly about OC characters and settings even if they tried to tie it to Azeroth through ambiguous ties and aesthetics.

    But Shadowlands was too disconnected and huffing its own farts. That's why it flopped with players. They forgot about Azeroth.

    Please stop with the Cosmic Bad shit, you can do a good expansion in space/with magic, it just can't be done like Shadowlands.
    I started writing a post but thankfully refreshed, this is more or less my thoughts. I think people are too caught up on the setting alone and not that Shadowlands failed to feel connected to the existing lore. Like "For the Shadowlands!" is a funny line from a character that does nothing, but it also reminds you how comically disconnected the whole thing was.

  19. #24399
    Bloodsail Admiral Foreign Exchange Ztudent's Avatar
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    I just think the Narrative Team is kind of tanking the franchise right now dragging everyone kicking and screaming because they have the power and the suits who control them have just not cared to pop into the Narrative Team offices in a while.

    Look, I'd love to take everything Steve Danuser is doing seriously but I feel like with the way things are going he is not going to be relevant much longer and the fact of the matter is that there is no pleasantries to discuss this type of lore as seen with the status quo of this thread.

    I just find it kind of baffling that we've gotten to the point where fanon is now represented as canon to a degree where it is causing dismal schisms that are extremely unfun to be a part of.

    I am honestly baffled at this point, lmao. At least, as long as I am RIGHT and I can be smug about it without having to get into these long winded 50 page arguments with insane people. Straitjacket Mental asylum style stuck within your own thoughts is the winning formula for Warcraft lore fans at this point. What's the point of discussing when it turns into this mess.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2023-10-04 at 03:31 PM.
    I no longer reply to quotations beyond if you're asking a genuine question or have a non-confrontational stance.


  20. #24400
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Considering 11.0's first thing datamined is a dwarf kingdom and what is very likely a gryphon, I don't think it's going to be too radical.
    Part of me thinks before 11.0 happens, Iridikron might succeed in his plan to kill the Titans. And that's what the expansion will be based on: A world without the titan's influence. And Avaloren is a place where they ditched the Titans & their ideas early on. Creating anti-titan-dwarves seems like their plan to ease us into the premise. That's pretty "radical" & "unfamiliar" when it comes to the motifs of Warcraft.

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