The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[matijwow]

Is all the talk about the rift in Avaloren because of Aman'thul ripping up Elun'hanir?

Elun'hanir grew from a branch of G'hanir, the Mother Tree, and G'hanir died during the War of the Ancients. It's last acorn was used to grow Nordrassil on Hyjal, and the other world trees came from Nordrassil.

I'd expect any remnant of it to be smaller. Maybe it was originally in the center of Un'Goro and that's why there's both a volcano there, a crater, primitive life forms, Titan observers, and the world tree corrupted by Il'gynoth in the Emerald Nightmare.

Also, kind of weird that they would make an Avalon now since their King Arthur was dissipated in Shadowlands.

[Chickat]

Maybe the First Ones poured their essence or whatever into Azeroth because they were about to die, and Azeroth is technically their "legacy" of sorts. If the First Ones also follow the rules of the "Legion across all timelines" (which they obviously do) then them only "blessing" our Azeroth would make sense as to why it's the only special Azeroth in all timelines and why all the others are doomed.

Ive speculated since SL that Azeroth is actually a first one and thats why shes so special.

[Dismayxz]

Ok I'm yet to sleep but I have some Ideas and have to wonder if peoples speculations on Avaloren to be an Arthurian inspired Fae paradise to be correct. If Avaloren and Khaz Algar are to be in the same area/same continent. It could be a plausible expansion setting to have. Could it be a possibility that instead of the world soul eating all of the Elemental Spirit, its instead the broken world tree Elun'ahir.

Avaloren could be a continent with a massive fissure through the centre. Inside the fissure is the roots of the world tree Elun'ahir, the roots of the world tree reach deep into the planet and have been absorbing the elemental force of spirit from the rest of the planet in an attempt to heal and regrow. At a point in time, a group of Earthern emerged to protect the roots. These have been influenced by the spirit elements from inside of the fissure and built Khaz'Algar into the sides of the fissure reaching deep down following the roots. The spirit energy and lack of any decay from old god influence has made them partly immune the curse of the flesh, allowing them to retain their earthen bodies. But glow green with the spirit element. Surrounding Avaloren are intense storms. The Khaz'Algarians have tamed/built earthen styled Gryphons that are also infused with the Spirit element. Dubbed stormriders, the spirit element they are being empowered by helps calm the storms around them as they fly through essentially protecting them. ( based on how our own elements are more chaotic without the spirit element).

Iridikon and Xal'Atath have arrived in Avaloren. Their destination is the base of the roots of the fissure. Iridikron uses the void soul to empower Xal'atath into her original old god form. (As shown in the chronicle old god border thingy) She expands and begins to wrap her way amongst the roots with her tentacles, instead of absorbing spirit energies the roots are now absorbing Galakrond decay energy. Or possibly even Old God void energies. Xal'Atath plans to absorb the spirit energy herself. Growing at an exelarated rate in order to burrow deep into the world soul and realise the old gods original wishes.

Although the continent of Avaloren is vast, the fissure of Khaz'Algar runs deep. The lack of Spirit energies could by causing any biomes surrounding the fissure problems, and at the tallest point of Khaz'Algar (Our new capital) There are reports from the deep places of the fissure that things have changed. The spirit is fading. Madness is falling the deeper you go down. The Algarians either send stormriders for help to the lands beyond the storms for the east, or I see Nightsquall taking us there. Thrall goes because as a shaman, he has some knowledge on the element of spirit.

I have written this off the top of my head at 6 am, so there may be some obvious lore inconsistencies with what we have recently learnt as I am half awake. Go easy on me. But I see this as a feasible expansion zone. There can be beautiful lands around the city and fissure, and terrifying dark zones the deeper we go. We can get beautiful Arthurian Forests, Moon mountains, Celtic styled highlands with windy cliffs and stormy seas. We also get a Dwarven city built into the sides of the fissure. That get deeper and deeper until it starts resembling an old god infused Mines of Moria. 11.0 may yet be an elemental expansion, just not the element anybody expected. Props to Dismayxz for getting my imagination ticking with the Gryphon texture Chi connection.

I imagine Uldaz could be a 10.2.5 /10.3 zone. A facility Iridkond and Xal'Atath use to locate the deepest part of the planet they can access. Leading us to this new expansion.

I didn't think of Nimue just.. being so blatant when I made my wall. That's a good point.

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Looking at the new N'zoth quotes from the Thaldrazsus questline again, since according to Danuser they were written to hint at very specific things and judging by the Khaz Algar book and the new Storming Sea/etc. books their foreshadowing is essentially all for next expansion.



At first I think everyone believed this was referring to following Fyrakk down to Zaralek, but no "dark waters flowed in his wake" or anything remotely of the sort. Maybe it was really an Iridikron/underground expansion hint?



This N'Zoth quote from Thaldrazsus might be referring to the underground world tree that Eonar planted. It's the most fitting "deep roots" I can think of, at least.



More underground hints? Actually, all three of these quotes refer to things below ground...

Yeah pretty much. I think with that Naga pamphlet thingy we had at some point, it's referring to Iridikron going for the Underground and the Tree there, and the Dark Waters flowing in his wake is a metaphor for the Naga. Or maybe the Tears of Eonar bit in the Elun'ahir book are represented with literal Water, similar to the mock-well of eternity situation with Nordrassil. A titan's tears, titan waters that Iridikron is going to corrupt with the Essence of Galakrond. Wait, that would make it a good life vs decay theme.

And then Deep Roots and more Underground hints, that just tracks.

[Chickat]

I interpreted it as "The Dream is Life's equivalent to the Veil" more than anything tbh.

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Save your breath, we likely won't explore another realm for a while.

I imagine 13.0 is a good time.

11.0 Other side of Azeroth
12.0 Revamp
13.0 Karesh and visiting the Voidlands in a patch.

[maplesyrupgl]

I sincerely hope we never visit another "Zereth" and never meet the First Ones.

Narrative cohesion is important to me, and I hate retcons as much as the next guy. I've been interested in Warcraft lore since WC3 and I've happily accepted questionable story/world-building decisions along the way, even my favourite lore expansion Legion had points I disliked. I never thought I'd actually be someone to support such a huge retcon, but here we are.

I hated BfA lore, it was awful. But at least it was fairly self-contained and we can move on from it.

Shadowlands lore, on the other hand, I legitimately would support them pretending never happened. The whole expansion. It commits the sin of not just being bad, but staining the entirety of Warcraft lore forever. The Jailor being behind everything. The First Ones just being Titans but more Titaner. The whole exploration and set-up of the Shadowlands themselves. The fact that the entire cosmos is apparently artificial and follows a paint-by-numbers grid-like ruleset. Danuser has honestly marked all lore that came before it and all lore that will follow.

I don't care what the next expansion is, as long as it has nothing to do with any of that.

[Chickat]

I do think that Shadowlands would have been better received had we got afterlives. Even if just small scenario type events, we should have seen themed afterlives that were non-critical.

An Island expedition type thing for different afterlives and one off quests with lore characters of the past would have been neat. Expand on it with every patch and we end up with 10-20 different Shadowlands realms even if the pocket of those realms was small.

[Wangming]

I imagine 13.0 is a good time.

.

And what is a good time for Taylor Swift memes?

[Chickat]

I think SL needed to explore more concepts, definitely. Doesn't help that some of its plot points were seemingly scrapped early on as well. :/ Hm...

As for Zereth Mortis? I think that's fine ngl, Zereth Mortis is our first true introduction to the Progenitors' magics and whatnot, and it's meant to be the start of a greater plotpoint that expands beyond the Cosmic Forces and their conflict. This is 100% going to be multi-expac, and I wouldn't be shocked if other forces explore stuff regarding the Progenitors in the near future.

I definitely would enjoy visiting other cosmic realms, but I would hate for us to visit every Zertith zones. Maybe as a raid or dungeon, but it would be boring if every cosmic expansion was cookie cutter with us visiting the zerith of each realm.

[Myrrh]

Looking at the new N'zoth quotes from the Thaldrazsus questline again, since according to Danuser they were written to hint at very specific things and judging by the Khaz Algar book and the new Storming Sea/etc. books their foreshadowing is essentially all for next expansion.

At first I think everyone believed this was referring to following Fyrakk down to Zaralek, but no "dark waters flowed in his wake" or anything remotely of the sort. Maybe it was really an Iridikron/underground expansion hint?

This N'Zoth quote from Thaldrazsus might be referring to the underground world tree that Eonar planted. It's the most fitting "deep roots" I can think of, at least.

More underground hints? Actually, all three of these quotes refer to things below ground...

Agree that there is a good chance these tie into the new book lore, esp around the Eonar tree. I think they might be slightly more metaphorical - e.g. the dark waters not being literal water, but the forces of Azshara following after (presumably) Iridikron. 'Her dreams' may refer to the roots/Eonar's tears (basically the manifestation of Eonar's dream for the Tree continuing on), and a very clear message that they have been co-opted by the Old Gods.

N'zoth is quite explicit in using 'our', though, and I wonder whether he considers Xal and her merry band as necessarily aligned with him. I've been banging on about this for a while now, but it would be a real let down to see N'zoth's inevitable and shenanigans-filled return be followed by him joining up with Azshara and Xal, since there is evidently no love lost between them. Would be an interesting dynamic to see the void crew also encounter similar frictions in this strange new place that we do.

[Santandame]

I sincerely hope we never visit another "Zereth" and never meet the First Ones.

Narrative cohesion is important to me, and I hate retcons as much as the next guy. I've been interested in Warcraft lore since WC3 and I've happily accepted questionable story/world-building decisions along the way, even my favourite lore expansion Legion had points I disliked. I never thought I'd actually be someone to support such a huge retcon, but here we are.

I hated BfA lore, it was awful. But at least it was fairly self-contained and we can move on from it.

Shadowlands lore, on the other hand, I legitimately would support them pretending never happened. The whole expansion. It commits the sin of not just being bad, but staining the entirety of Warcraft lore forever. The Jailor being behind everything. The First Ones just being Titans but more Titaner. The whole exploration and set-up of the Shadowlands themselves. The fact that the entire cosmos is apparently artificial and follows a paint-by-numbers grid-like ruleset. Danuser has honestly marked all lore that came before it and all lore that will follow.

I don't care what the next expansion is, as long as it has nothing to do with any of that.

I hope you’re ready for Cosmicspreds to come in here and tell you that you’re wrong.

Whilst I do agree with the sentiment that if SL was seeded throughout previous expansions more, it would have been received better - I can’t get behind the framed narrative that The Jailer was a 4d chess player. Him influencing Vol’jin to appoint Sylvanas as warchief, making a deal with Odyn to get his eye, and utilising the death of Argus, sure. All the other bollocks, no thank you.

The whole Eternal Ones essentially being constructs as well wasn’t something I was keen on. I hope they don’t go that route with Elune.

[Chickat]

I didn't read every page because there were so many since yesterday, but i guess general consensus now is that we're going somewhere through the dangerous sea and storms which noone was able to ship through?

Which means we will definitely see the Nightsquall which means pirates. Not as the main theme, but there will almost surely be some pirates.

[Jaggler]

Which means we will definitely see the Nightsquall which means pirates. Not as the main theme, but there will almost surely be some pirates.

I can totally see the Nightsquall/something similar as the "Dragonscale Expedition" of the next expansion. Getting us there, establishing a foothold and bringing some flavor.
Maybe they have a feud with another pirate crew which could be a minor/side antagonist.

[Santandame]

Agree that there is a good chance these tie into the new book lore, esp around the Eonar tree. I think they might be slightly more metaphorical - e.g. the dark waters not being literal water, but the forces of Azshara following after (presumably) Iridikron. 'Her dreams' may refer to the roots/Eonar's tears (basically the manifestation of Eonar's dream for the Tree continuing on), and a very clear message that they have been co-opted by the Old Gods.

N'zoth is quite explicit in using 'our', though, and I wonder whether he considers Xal and her merry band as necessarily aligned with him. I've been banging on about this for a while now, but it would be a real let down to see N'zoth's inevitable and shenanigans-filled return be followed by him joining up with Azshara and Xal, since there is evidently no love lost between them. Would be an interesting dynamic to see the void crew also encounter similar frictions in this strange new place that we do.

I would much prefer N’Zoth to have his own aims that align differently from the Void Lords of corrupting Azeroth. Almost that he forms his own personality and that he just hopes to rule Azeroth rather than corrupt it. That he believes he’s no one’s pawn.

Further to this I’d prefer that like Xal, when restored from the blade he sheds his lovecraftian form and takes on a humanoid appearance. But one devoid of any magic or power. Have him be the WoW version of Thrawn. No magic, no martial prowess, no supernatural powers. Just an incredibly intelligent and manipulative strategic genius who studies everyone and every situation so that he’s always prepared and has the upper hand. Sometimes even an unlikely ally against bigger threats only to go our separate ways when the job is done.

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Which means we will definitely see the Nightsquall which means pirates. Not as the main theme, but there will almost surely be some pirates.

Which I find brilliant because so many people took “no pirates” at face value.

[shieldslammer]

Iridikron. Like I wrote, I still fail to see what he wants to do when does have the attention of the Titans. That's what really irks me. He's a fly compared to an Old God. A molecule to the guy that ripped one out of the planet. Galakronds Essence can only be used as bait or a direct tool to get said attention. But I just don't see him ending up dying. Even if the reformed Titans don't end up powerful, I still just don't see him as a credible threat, when only the Aspects and Tyr took Galakrond down. What's his essence gonna do? I am more and more sold on the idea (not my idea of separating the Titans from eachother) that whatever he has in mind as revenge isn't a direct fight or direct revenge. It is deeper.

Maybe he intends to use something like a curse of the flesh to make the Titans mortal. And perhaps if they die, their souls won't be associated with Order any longer. Though the natural question is if it's that simple why didn't the Old Gods do it back when they were fighting the Titans. The other option is to use Azeroth to kill the Titans. But I think if anyone had that plan it would be Xalatath.

[Jaggler]

I sincerely hope we never visit another "Zereth" and never meet the First Ones.

Narrative cohesion is important to me, and I hate retcons as much as the next guy. I've been interested in Warcraft lore since WC3 and I've happily accepted questionable story/world-building decisions along the way, even my favourite lore expansion Legion had points I disliked. I never thought I'd actually be someone to support such a huge retcon, but here we are.

I hated BfA lore, it was awful. But at least it was fairly self-contained and we can move on from it.

Shadowlands lore, on the other hand, I legitimately would support them pretending never happened. The whole expansion. It commits the sin of not just being bad, but staining the entirety of Warcraft lore forever. The Jailor being behind everything. The First Ones just being Titans but more Titaner. The whole exploration and set-up of the Shadowlands themselves. The fact that the entire cosmos is apparently artificial and follows a paint-by-numbers grid-like ruleset. Danuser has honestly marked all lore that came before it and all lore that will follow.

I don't care what the next expansion is, as long as it has nothing to do with any of that.

I kind of agree.

Not in the sense that the Zereth are awful and we should pretend that it never happened. But more in the sense that that part of the lore should be the background noise of the backgroundnoise that is the cosmic chart. Something the titans were until Legion.

[lostsoup]

Agree that there is a good chance these tie into the new book lore, esp around the Eonar tree. I think they might be slightly more metaphorical - e.g. the dark waters not being literal water, but the forces of Azshara following after (presumably) Iridikron. 'Her dreams' may refer to the roots/Eonar's tears (basically the manifestation of Eonar's dream for the Tree continuing on), and a very clear message that they have been co-opted by the Old Gods.

N'zoth is quite explicit in using 'our', though, and I wonder whether he considers Xal and her merry band as necessarily aligned with him. I've been banging on about this for a while now, but it would be a real let down to see N'zoth's inevitable and shenanigans-filled return be followed by him joining up with Azshara and Xal, since there is evidently no love lost between them. Would be an interesting dynamic to see the void crew also encounter similar frictions in this strange new place that we do.

I think N'zoth coming back inside the Blade of the Black Empire and sneakily helping us get rid of Xal'atath would make sense. He hold us in high regards, since after his servant Uu'nat called us "worthy", he warned us about not only the Shadowlands but the same "what is to come" that the Jailer was talking about. Maybe beating that greater threat is his primary concern and he sees creating a void Titan by corrupting Azeroth's world soul as just one possible way to win that battle, so aiding us could be a viable alternative.

[Chickat]

And what is a good time for Taylor Swift memes?

All the time is a good time for Taylor Swift memes. I recently became a Swifty btw. Didn't realize how many of her songs are good, especially the ones off of her more recent less poppy albums.

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"As suspected the dream is just titan ordered rather than created. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the titans are the first ones and they just wiped their own minds to to become part of the balance."

I get this is popular among peoples headcanons, but this needs to stop, seriously. The Titans and the First Ones are completely different. SL makes this difference so many times, I am surprised y'all are still lost on this ordeal.

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"Sorry we cancelled and re-wrote most of the expansion"

Is this even a thing or are y'all just spewing headcanon?

Well Titans and First Ones are both Order aligned in some way. Its definitely possible the Titans are connected to the First ones in a way that the other cosmic big boys aren't. Not saying they are the same thing, but perhaps the First Ones took special care in creating the Titans or whatever.

[Viridiel]

Is it at all possible that the Elemental Plane physically corresponds to the other side of the planet? The Plane was created by the "Storm God" Ra, so it wouldn't be surprising if he created a permanent storm to prevent anyone from reaching the place where the Elemental Plane is sealed. Iridikron wanting to go there to shatter the seal and release the elements makes a lot of sense.

I'm just not really sure how to reconcile it with the fact that Deepholm is metaphysically "inside" the Maelstrom.

[Santandame]

All the time is a good time for Taylor Swift memes. I recently became a Swifty btw. Didn't realize how many of her songs are good, especially the ones off of her more recent less poppy albums.

I did too after not getting it for years. There’s a reason she’s the biggest star on the planet and no hyperbole when all is said and done years from now she will likely go down as one of the greatest music stars of all time because of her contribution, likely top three alongside The Beatles and Michael Jackson. Folklore is my poison but I’m a sucker for pretty much all of her stuff now.

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I think N'zoth coming back inside the Blade of the Black Empire and sneakily helping us get rid of Xal'atath would make sense. He hold us in high regards, since after his servant Uu'nat called us "worthy", he warned us about not only the Shadowlands but the same "what is to come" that the Jailer was talking about. Maybe beating that greater threat is his primary concern and he sees creating a void Titan by corrupting Azeroth's world soul as just one possible way to win that battle, so aiding us could be a viable alternative.

I would prefer that his goals weren’t aligned with other Old Gods and Void Lords, that his are inherently selfish and to his own liking. Have him be someone fascinated with mortal affairs and life, wanting to rule and live amongst us as our ruler as opposed to corruption.

[Chickat]

I did too after not getting it for years. There’s a reason she’s the biggest star on the planet and no hyperbole when all is said and done years from now she will likely go down as one of the greatest music stars of all time because of her contribution, likely top three alongside The Beatles and Michael Jackson. Folklore is my poison but I’m a sucker for pretty much all of her stuff now.

Yeah, im still not a huge fan of her early country stuff, but Red onwards shes great. Folklore is the best. But perhaps we should end the conversation here. Id hate for us to get in trouble for off topic discussion.