The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[ImTheMizAwesome]

So we are trading the repeatable instanced content for world content. And I am unsure if this is a fair trade.

I mean it would be awesome if that world content was something fresh and creative and not something that is just rehash of a rehash that dies really quickly.

But in 10.2 we might be getting another fill the bar almost like event ala invasion at least from previews thats how it sounds like, so..

[Dracullus]

BfA also had Mechagon, so again. Should all even out.

Wut? We were comparing DF and Legion at that moment. If we compare new zones for each expac patches - Legion: Broken Shore (small) + Argus (big), BfA: Mechagon (small) + Nazjatar (big), DF: Forbidden (small) + Zaralek (big) + Dream (big).

Besides. A new zone isn't being traded for a new raid. A new zone is being traded for a full X.1 patch. Which includes a raid, associated cosmetics, as well as new content with associated cosmetics.

But again, you are ignoring all DF stuff beside 10.1 and 10.2. If 10.0.7 had ONLY raid added, it would easily pass as old X.1 patch.

And btw, if we talk about raid cosmetics, Emerald Nightmare + Nighthold had same ones, same as Highmaul + Blackrock. BfA was only expansion with truly 4 tiers, but also we didn't have class sets there.

--

Btw, it's easy to forget, but whole discussion started from post "they charged people 10 more dollars only to deliver the lowest amount of content they've ever made" xD.

So we are trading the repeatable instanced content for world content. And I am unsure if this is a fair trade.

That's fair. And imo there is problem with giving us reason to reuse all this world content, it's often left to rot after patch is over.

Legion had 5 large zones and 4 medium sized ones plus all the areas used for class and artifact campaigns.

And this is not. Only Suramar matches any of 4 DF zones and Argus minizones/Broken Shore are smaller than Forbidden Reach. It's not only about size, but also amount of content there, I literally spend first whole week of DF for just doing all quests there.

[Holdodlig]

Dwarf looking ogres?

I wouldn't mind if it was the true leak. It seems to be well made. There are a few flaws tho.

First of all, I doubt we'll see ogre guardians in Azeroth as they seems to descent from elemental creatures from Draenor and not from titan creation. But this kind of thing might just be retconned into "Yeah the gronns on Draenor actually were titan creations made to control the Life influence".

Then, the mobile version seems to be flawed. I mean, the left arrow really looks like it was distorded or something like that.

Finally, as it was mentionned, the hands are really weird. Reminds me of some weird fan art that were a twitter trend back then on WoW where players would paint over their char to make them looks like what they wished they look like.

[Nymrohd]

Btw, it's easy to forget, but whole discussion started from post "they charged people 10 more dollars only to deliver the lowest amount of content they've ever made" xD.

I mean for the subgroup of people who are raid loggers, that's probably true.

[Sondrelk]

How are they cutting an entire raid tier?

Likewise, how did we get "less content"?

It might sound like I am defending them but people genuinely have this chip on their shoulder about Blizzard "promising" stuff and autistic pattern recognization like "Oh, this expansion had 4 raid tiers, and this expansion had 4 raid tiers so this expansion will have 4 raid tiers even though that expansion didn't have 4 raid tiers".

It's pattern recognition, but it's hardly any unjustified one. So far every expansion since at least WotLK has either had 4 major raid tiers, or been dropped in some way like WoD and SL.
In both the case of WoD and SL there were also a clear candidate for missing raid, zone, or other artifacts of a missing patch. WoD had Shattrath and Farahlon, and SL had the Drust and the weird way Sepulcher was divided to have effectively two final bosses.

This is far from a pattern like every other expansion being good/bad. Or themes repeating in predictable fashion. This is a very obvious way in which DF will be compared to WoD and SL as a failed expansion, solely based on what number it ends on, and how many raids it has.

This is a question of optics, not one of details on what precisely constitutes a full expansion.

[Nymrohd]

It's pattern recognition, but it's hardly any unjustified one. So far every expansion since at least WotLK has either had 4 major raid tiers, or been dropped in some way like WoD and SL.
In both the case of WoD and SL there were also a clear candidate for missing raid, zone, or other artifacts of a missing patch. WoD had Shattrath and Farahlon, and SL had the Drust and the weird way Sepulcher was divided to have effectively two final bosses.

This is far from a pattern like every other expansion being good/bad. Or themes repeating in predictable fashion. This is a very obvious way in which DF will be compared to WoD and SL as a failed expansion, solely based on what number it ends on, and how many raids it has.

This is a question of optics, not one of details on what precisely constitutes a full expansion.

And again, for raids, the size of raids also counts. If Amirdrassil is the last raid, then DF has the lowest number of raid encounters out of any expansion in WoW. We had no massive raid. Just 3 medium sized ones.

For me, I reserve judgment on how successful 10.2 is. I have a very low opinion of Zereth Mortis personally. I've flied around the ED zone in the PTR and I cannot say I was amazed but it is OK. Dragonriding makes everything feel so small. Seriously, I enjoy it so much but if flying limited their design and how we experienced the game, Dragonriding has done the same on steroids by making massive areas feel small.

[Nibelheimy]

Fake or not, Agg'orand and Agg'ora are clearly a location and race living in that location respectively.

[Pheraz]

And again, for raids, the size of raids also counts. If Amirdrassil is the last raid, then DF has the lowest number of raid encounters out of any expansion in WoW.

Plus tbh raids were also kind of mehhh so far at least from the visuals and encounter design in ultra tourist mode lfr xD
IMO even Shadowlands had very nice raids visually and from the encounter, even in lfr
(Yes I know that lfr can't really be used as measurements)

[Nymrohd]

Plus tbh raids were also kind of mehhh so far at least from the visuals and encounter design in ultra tourist mode lfr xD
IMO even Shadowlands had very nice raids visually and from the encounter, even in lfr
(Yes I know that lfr can't really be used as measurements)

For me, DF lacks a standout raid. The two we got so far were average. I hope Amirdrassil can be it. Every other expac had at least one standout raid, many had two.

[Dismayxz]

Dwarf looking ogres?

Alright, couple of thoughts on this one. Acknowledging all the like referencing done with the actual Homepage and all, but just wanna spotlight some things about this Fake, simply because we've seen so much AI, something with a bit more effort put into it is a refreshing thing to come across. Just skip to 3.) for the actual important shit nobody has pointed out so far, it seems.

1.) Completely ignoring the texts somehow feeling like a wishlist. Living World isn't mentioned as a Feature, it is literally just used in the Text to refer to the World itself. Nothing else. Bit of a stretch. If this was real (which is the point of making a Leak with effort put into it, since you're tryna make people believe it could be real), nothing in the actual Text somehow has a reason to NOT be there. If we were on the right track, chances are things are simply gonna be there, that we expect to be there. That still rings true beyond this Fake. There's been clear signaling and foreshadowing in certain directions and that will come with payoffs, it's not a stretch for any of the Text's contents to be included, per se. (I would be willing to die on this leak's hill for my own reasons, but meh. We've seemingly already reached a conclusion).

2.) The Dwarf on the Khaz Algar phone screen looks so weird. The fingers are missing (Ai Art, yeah I know, blah blah blah) on one hand, the other is just obfuscated by cloth hanging from the Bracers. Everything about it screams AI, yet there's also plausible explanations for why some parts look weird. The one thing that kills it, is actually just the Head as somebody pointed out. The Face and Beard look a whole lot like ingame assets at this size, whereas the body actually does not. This is the weakest link at least as far as the supposed 'Content' shown goes.

3.) The Best part of the Fake. The Earthen Dwarf Ogre (or Goliath for short)? That's not AI Art or Artwork at all. That's a physical ingame space with a physical in game Model. And no, it is not Gorgrond. Whether the two are photoshopped together (Model/Front and Background) from two separate pieces? No clue. But there's effort in there.

Let's break it down:
- The only similarity after giving Gorgrond a good look-over from top to bottom for roundabout a good 45 Minutes+ now, as somebody with an eye for these little Zone and Model details (usually), is in fact, that both are desert-y/canyon esque Zones, yet it lacks everything that distinctly signals Gorgrond, even if you were to empty the Zone out. No topography used for the background Zone is anywhere to be found in Gorgrond at all. Gorgrond exists, if it was used to fake this, you can look at the picture, take in Details and reference them with the existing Zone. Most of the more flat surface areas of gorgrond have water, skeletons or are part of a smaller canyon type surface, not open space with a more mountainous backdrop.

- The mountains in Gorgrond don't fog up like that, in fact they steam and smoke from very distinct places and angles.

- To the left of the hand of the "Goliath", you will find a small patch of 'Ground Texture' (something somebody brought up to me) that looks off. It's not Ground Texture, which is why it looks off. It's a Rock. A literal Rock 'object' or 'doodad' as you'd call it. Two, side-by-side, in fact. The right hand ground clutter grass is not reminiscent of the usual clutter used on WoW Zones and is brighter than anything green in Gorgrond will ever be. Colors matter. The only place this could've been staged at in Gorgrond, besides having completely different topography and spacing, would have you see, no matter where you look, either Blackrock Foundry, the Everbloom portions of Botani green, or the steam vent area with the water elementals, all either partially or fully in view, which NONE of them are.

- I checked the Gorgrond Rock objects, and they also do not look anything like the two seen on the left. Gorgrond Rocks are lower definition, with entirely different or sometimes lacking crack patterns on the rock's texture. Waking Shores came to mind and while the coloration is similar, the pattern, again, does not match a single one to the T from any angle. Best case scenario, it's from an entirely differently themed, recent zone and got recolored. Which is a lot of work on it's own for a fake like this.

So for the narrative of the Fake, the background is entirely custom. It's no existing zone in the Game at the moment, unless somebody literally went and drastically changed an existing Zone on the "Place that shall not be named" (private server), using their specific tools. And even then, nothing would probably fit right in and the level of detail is above what that place can do.

Now, the 'Goliath' itself. Reminiscent visuals of Ogres, Dwarven-esque Beard. Earthen Body.

- The Earthen Body, with that pose first reminded me of the Mogu, with their very defined elaborate rocky chest layers. The pose would loosely fit the Draenei Idle, which is basically the Skeleton the Mogu use, except somebody brought to my attention that it would only loosely fit the new idle, if frozen. Mogu apparently still use the old Draenei skeleton? (Confirm/Deny, please?). This lead the guy to the Rexxar Model from BFA (aka the Kul'tiran base Skeleton). I asked for a side by side.

Courtesy of "Pepper", on the place that shall not be named.

While the base model seems a bit tighter, especially the distance between the side of the Torso and the Arms, this is the Rexxar/Kul'tiran Skelly being used here. Which would then have to be fitted with an ogre/dwarf mixture-esque Head and a Beard that does not seem to exist at all. On top of being retextured, made slightly bulkier AND on top of that, be given Gear that once again, does not actually exist, as reminiscent as it might loosely be of dwarven heritage.

Edit: I also just got done checking all the existing Race customizations that include those lower jaw, full beards or could have options to mesh together as a custom. None of them even remotely fit, even if you were to try and mesh them together in your head across or within the race options, across Kul'tiran, Dwarves, Dark Iron Dwarves and I checked Gnomes for good measure. Both on Retail AND the private server that shall not be named. This is a custom beard.

Thanks for not reading my Goliath TED Talk.

[Raetary]

I'm like 95% confident that the background is just the DI concept art.
The site is almost identical to Dragonflights, and on top of that the slides don't even do what they are supposed to do.

The preview images would be showing an image or art piece of the actual zone, not its inhabitants.
If those get showcased, they would get their own slideshow.

[Nize]

I wouldn't mind if it was the true leak. It seems to be well made. There are a few flaws tho.

First of all, I doubt we'll see ogre guardians in Azeroth as they seems to descent from elemental creatures from Draenor and not from titan creation. But this kind of thing might just be retconned into "Yeah the gronns on Draenor actually were titan creations made to control the Life influence".

Then, the mobile version seems to be flawed. I mean, the left arrow really looks like it was distorded or something like that.

Finally, as it was mentionned, the hands are really weird. Reminds me of some weird fan art that were a twitter trend back then on WoW where players would paint over their char to make them looks like what they wished they look like.

Honestly, this one looks pretty damn good. I'll give them credit. One of my favorite touches is that they have a description scrolled off the mobile screen. Most fake leakers are way too into their own story to let some of their fake descriptions be purposely missed.

[Lady Atia]

I am not exaggerating when I say you are the only person I ve seen since the launch of D4 that has actually called the D4 battlepass cool. It's one of the worst battlepasses I have ever seen.

Tbf I barely played it but I like the cosmetics I saw. Keep in mind I play games for the cosmetics (that's also why I raid mythic and play solo shuffle), so having great cosmetics that are FOMO but available to everyone is a good concept for me personally. Which may sound weird, but I would rather have that than FOMO stuff that's tied to "hard/elite" content since that's stressing me out far more than just the idea of having to play the game in order to get that stuff.

[Nymrohd]

@Dismayxz I think you are underestimating what AI can do. This is just low effort on their part with the dwarf, if I fool around with prompts I can get your a decent dwarf whose hands look just fine. Look at the DALL-E thread and you'll see tons of examples with fairly decent hands

[Marlamin]

So did the PTR update last night not contain any models or icons?

I noticed Marlamin said the PTR was down, but that the build was able to be datamined.

Haven't seen more than strings yet though, and the regular dataminers seem quiet on Twitter.

It was a relatively small build as far as new models and such (I recall seeing only 2, one of which was some item set?), it also hasn't been fully deployed yet so some dataminers won't have full access until it comes out later today.

[Dismayxz]

@Dismayxz I think you are underestimating what AI can do. This is just low effort on their part with the dwarf, if I fool around with prompts I can get your a decent dwarf whose hands look just fine. Look at the DALL-E thread and you'll see tons of examples with fairly decent hands

Fair, but I'd like to think I am not. I browse the DALL-E Thread frequently enough. The lower dwarf, I am not even disputing anything, nor trying to make a point for the reality of the Fake, just tryna showcase that there was effort put into the top one that yes, I very much do believe isn't even remotely AI. It's literally a custom in-engine mock up if anything.

[Lady Atia]

It was a relatively small build as far as new models and such (I recall seeing only 2, one of which was some item set?), it also hasn't been fully deployed yet so some dataminers won't have full access until it comes out later today.

Which is kinda normal, even since the alpha it was the case that they usually front-loaded the first patches with the cool stuff. Kinda hoping they fix the tier set visuals this patch, especially the evoker ones. Also wondering where the "Veilstrider" of Dragonflight is? I really hope they do that again, open world players also deserve their FoS lol.

[Wangming]

Thanks for not reading my Goliath TED Talk.

I did actually read it. Thanks for your detailed analysis.

[Dismayxz]

I did actually read it. Thanks for your detailed analysis.

I am all for calling out AI Art and I usually take people's word for it, because I do in fact not now the details of how far it can reach. I don't think the DALL-E Thread is a good reference at all, but does anybody, without giving an actual example of this, actually think that the Ogre picture is AI? That it fakes an existing pose and the Art Style to this degree? Most people I asked about it so far don't even remotely believe that. And I am obfuscating here, that based on what work likely went into that Ogre Model and background, the timing with Ybarra's tweet about reviewing the assets is lucky af if anything, when it's being framed in the way it is. And though I put the effort in not really worried about the time investment, I also didn't even get into the fact that I know (and you can find) the Artwork on the back of the Page that people keep referencing as the Artwork of the Dragon Isles, completely ignoring that outside of a similar shade of green on the grass, they are actually quite distinct, when cross-referencing the mountain ranges and details in the back. But because it is Artwork, I am not going to go into that Topic, because Artwork is vastly more prone to being AI Art to me than anything remotely in-game looking.

[Delever]

Tbf I barely played it but I like the cosmetics I saw. Keep in mind I play games for the cosmetics (that's also why I raid mythic and play solo shuffle), so having great cosmetics that are FOMO but available to everyone is a good concept for me personally. Which may sound weird, but I would rather have that than FOMO stuff that's tied to "hard/elite" content since that's stressing me out far more than just the idea of having to play the game in order to get that stuff.

But its not just about the FOMO stuff. Its a battlepass that is designed in a terrible manner. It is riddled with useless stuff for most levels (even the elite path) and it also rewards 666 of the premium currency because "hurrr durrr 666 for diablo we re so quirky" when in reality the only thing the 666 accomplishes is that by the 3rd battlepass you are literally 2 premium currency away from being able to purchase another one effectively pushing you to buy more currency to do so. The cosmetics might be nice but the way the battlepass is built is one of the worst I ve ever seen and I struggle to see how people are willing to financially support such a mediocre product.