The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Varodoc]

Honestly I was buying into how cunning N'zoth is with the emerald nightmare and how he chose Azshara and she tricked us into using the heart of Azeroth into releasing the old God (even if it is more her being cunning than him), all of the 8.3 quests are designed to show how influencial he really is and it works quite well. But he gets deleted so fast and with no respect once he gets out of prison, it really feels like there was no thought put into how he will sustain himself, he just spent millenia thinking of getting out and forgot how brutal it is out of prison.

N'Zoth was Xavius' true master and Malfurion even pointed out in the raid that N'Zoth and Xavius delighted that the mortals of Azeroth and the Legion were busy fighting one another. N'Zoth and Xavius were the true master puppeteers of that story.

As for Azshara, she thought she was one step ahead of N'Zoth, but N'zoth revealed that he was aware of her treacherous thoughts. We can also reasonably assume that it was the Old God who told Azshara to manipulate Magni and the Heroes, since it was Il'gynoth (in Legion) who first suggested the idea that Magni was made a pawn.

Beyond that, it's extremely obvious that N'Zoth is not dead and will resurface in the future. N'Zoth is extremely cautious and doesn't leave anything to chance, he would have known that he'd be vulnerable after his release, especially since he can see all timelines and he even saw the PC's destiny in the Chromie questline.

when it gives birth to expansion such as cataclysm, some depth would have been appreciated

For human characters, sure, but the Old Gods don't need depth, just like the Naaru don't need depth. They are Cosmic ancient beings, they follow the original directive, they have no other purpose in their existence. Obviously this doesn't mean these characters can't have deep personalities, anyone who's played BfA knows that N'Zoth is very charismatic and cunning, he is able to truly manipulate people and exploit their weaknesses. Dragonflight reminds us of this fact, with all the callbacks to Neltharion's fall to madness at the hand of the Old God.

Beyond that, the Old Gods shouldn't be humanized. They are not supposed to be human-like villains.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

when it gives birth to expansion such as cataclysm, some depth would have been appreciated

I will argue against all relevant factions in this debate and assert that there is a means by which to give the Old Gods a good deal more depth, albeit in a different capacity than is being suggested—depth does not inherently constitute familiarity or sympathy in behavior or motives, but can also apply to matters of the subject's nature. In this particular instance, I think the Old Gods would be better helped were they lent more characterization in connection to their alien nature, rather than having said alien nature be diminished in pursuit of the rampant anthropomorphization of personality and behavior that already plagues the setting. I figure the most interesting approach to them would be an approach taken with full acknowledgement and affirmation of their alien nature, divorcing them further from recognizable modes of anthropoform thought and further emphasizing their abnormal thought processes—in fact, I believe we can see precisely why steps should not be taken in the opposite direction in N'Zoth's portrayal in BfA. Until N'Zoth, all of the Old Gods were portrayed as fairly detached and impersonal in their behavior, and their corruption appeared to be a passive product of their nature. Of them all, only Yogg-Saron ever expressed much self-acknowledgement or attempted to actively assert himself, and I feel his raving diction and brief screentime served to maintain a sense of mystique and unfamiliarity around him. Then, without warning, we were thrust into the magical world of N'Zoth's insufferable character shilling and typical villain braggadocio – which I think was ultimately the blueprint and a forewarning of the Jailer's non-personality and most of the problems Shadowlands had – in which he pops up every so often to chat us up, starting long, one-sided conversations in which he behaves indistinguishably from any other deep-voiced villain spewing empty threats, with a personality so terrible anthropomorphized that one could easily superimpose an evil wizard over him and feel it would be more fitting. This problem was further exacerbated by his own acknowledgement of the fact that he could drive you to insanity with a "whisper" (a word repeated ad nauseum to the point that the word "whisper" in connection to World of Warcraft should drive any right-minded person to feelings of intense physical violence), as though were a fully human malefactor with full awareness of what constitutes "insanity" for those breeds of anthropofauna that should be so beneath him in terms of intelligence, and who merely employed insanity and corruption as a tool rather than passively radiating it by virtue of his nature. It's a terrible butchering of the eldritch deity archetype, one which serves better to induce states of irrevocable madness than N'Zoth himself. Propped up by eternally-unshown but vicariously-told machinations as the typical "Magnificent Bastard" trope, N'Zoth's portrayal invariably divorced itself from the archetype he initially represented the moment he established himself as neither inscrutable nor alien and began resorting to hollow braggadocio (as opposed to Yogg-Saron's breed of ravings, which were given just enough wiggle room to still give him decent characterization as something fundamentally alien).

Cf. and contrast Yogg-Saron, Y'Shaarj, C'Thun—none of those so pathetically pepper their dialogue with this-and-that about the illimitable power of the Void and how successful they allegedly are as villains, but instead assert dispassionately, impersonally, that the object of their malice is irrevocably screwed by the vastness and hopelessness of the universe, not that they have now fallen into their trap and have no choice but to comply. I still find myself most prominently going back to the aforementioned "whispers" nonsense, as though it were in-character for either a manipulator or an inscrutable alien entity to assert how effective their machinations are. His corruption itself is even framed not strictly as inducing insanity nor indirectly encouraging subservience to him, but a simple assertion of his will over that of others, more mind control than the kind of fundamental moral corruption the other Old Gods induce. Take, for instance, this line:

"With a whisper, the Earth Warder bent to my will. Who are you to resist me?"

This suggests to me that whatever moron wrote this trash hasn't so much as skimmed a Lovecraft text. A quick skim through "Nyarlathotep", a personal favorite story of mine, ought to show a superior framing for this kind of thing. Nyarlathotep, still the most actively malicious and familiar of his kind, did not break into a prolonged rant during his exhibitions, but instead allowed the horrible facts to do their work. When spurned, his petty response is to let the objects of his malfeasance stumble into madness themselves. Let's bring an alternative to the table for the aforementioned line:

"The sobbing serpent peered through sunless hollows of illimitable gloom, devoured by unattainable liberation."

Similarly, let's take another line:

"With every choice, you become more my servant."

Perhaps a better way to present the same idea would be:

"Stringless, stumbling through volition's backwoods, it seeks the circle of stars."

The reason why this dialogue is better – and I am presumptuous enough to say with absolute certainty that it's better – is because of its impersonal nature. No objectives are strictly clarified, but are suggested strongly enough to leave no room for alternative interpretation. More importantly, there exists no malice, no assertion of power, but instead a statement of truth made from a different perspective. This, I think, is a much better approach and is a good demonstration as to how reduced personhood can lend depth to a character just as much as personhood can.

[Melorandor]

Yeah seems likely we are going to the Emerald Dream, which I think excludes a Emerald Dream/Lifelands expansion now, which is good in all honesty. Far better themes for Blizzard to focus on for Expansions than another Shadowlands/meta reality based one.

[Luck4]

Yeah seems likely we are going to the Emerald Dream, which I think excludes a Emerald Dream/Lifelands expansion now, which is good in all honesty. Far better themes for Blizzard to focus on for Expansions than another Shadowlands/meta reality based one.

The new hot topic is Avaloren, on the Other side of Azeroth.

[Skildar]

--snip--

Concerning the whispers, I always rather hear about these from mortals that have succumbed or resisted them. They definitely are a tool to drive someone mad, but hearing them yourself and be disappointed by how simple and ineffective to the player most of them are is almost disturbing. Thanks for including some examples of good "whispers", I've never tried Lovecraft literature and today most entertainment that takes root in it aren't that entertaining or have satisfying writing. Anyway with all this talk I've strayed us off topic a bit too much ^^'

[Melorandor]

The new hot topic is Avaloren, on the Other side of Azeroth.

Yeah, I am feeling Avaloren is future expansion content tbh. If I am wrong, I will eat crow.

[LemonDemonGirl]

What if the 'Primal Trolls' really are on Avaloren?

[Makorus]

Just because something is obtuse doesn't mean it's good writing.

I hate the circlejerk of "I could be a better write than Blizzard".

I almost hate it as much as people pretending Lovecraftian shit isn't the most boring thing imaginable and simply does not work in a video game.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Just because something is obtuse doesn't mean it's good writing.

I hate the circlejerk of "I could be a better write than Blizzard".

I almost hate it as much as people pretending Lovecraftian shit isn't the most boring thing imaginable and simply does not work in a video game.

Your distaste of Cosmic Horror and the obtuseness that it often accompanies it as a convention of the genre is certainly a subjective matter of personal taste, so I cannot oppose it. Conversely, I would like to add that what you consider a circlejerk is difficult to frame as such when it's a truth as close to objective as something as inherently subjective as writing can be—I am absolutely certain I am a better writer than Danuser, Roux, Golden, et al. This is not an assertion of my superiority as a writer, mind you, merely that I am absolutely certain of that particular fact. It is as much a presumptuous or braggadocious statement as it is presumptuous or braggadocious to assert my superiority as a writer over a potted plant. Indeed, I feel as though one could organize a collaborative writing project between Stephenie Meyer, Amanda McKittrick Ros, and a typewriter monkey trying its damndest with a go at Hamlet, and each writer could have wholly different ideas as to where the narrative should go and even regarding the most fundamental elements of it and everything it contains, and they would still produce a better product than Blizzard.

[Nymrohd]

The new hot topic is Avaloren, on the Other side of Azeroth.

Yeah while I want world revamp I fully expect we will never get it but will instead get Avaloren as a full continent on the other side of Azeroth as the next expac.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The new hot topic is Avaloren, on the Other side of Azeroth.

Has it been explicitly stated yet it's on the other side of the planet, and I'm just behind the updates, or is that just an assumption based on the fact there's not much available space remaining on our side of Azeroth's face?

[Skildar]

What I'd love to see on Avaloren is what good stories removing faction barrier can their writing teams tell. Because on that end, Dragonflight is definitely not impressing me.

I've always liked the war between horde and alliance and was especially interested in seeing what conflict bellicists like Turalyon, Alleria, Greymane, Overlord Geya'rah, Talanji, etc. can manage. Going back to basics, fighting for land, for resources, to keep your people safe and fed. These are reasosns simple enough for alliance to aggressive again in a time where they have recruited many new people without lands to prosper on and lost countless people in a war that benefitted none of their kingdom's wealth.

[Makorus]

Your distaste of Cosmic Horror and the obtuseness that it often inherently contains as a convention of the genre is certainly a subjective matter of personal taste. Conversely, I would like to add that what you consider a circlejerk is difficult to frame as such when it's a truth as close to objective as something as inherently subjective as writing can be—I am absolutely certain I am a better writer than Danuser, Roux, Golden, et al. This is not an assertion of my superiority as a writer, mind you, merely that I am absolutely certain of that particular fact. It is as much a presumptuous or braggadocious statement as it is presumptuous or braggadocious to assert my superiority as a writer over a potted plant. Indeed, I feel as though one could organize a collaborative writing project between Stephenie Meyer, Amanda McKittrick Ros, and a typewriter monkey trying its damndest with a go at Hamlet, and each writer could have wholly different ideas as to where the narrative should go and even the most fundamental elements of it, and they would still produce a better product than Blizzard.

Writing is not wholly subjective though. Danuser has a degree in English literature, and has decades of history in writing.

You seem to think because you use big words, you are a better writer and smarter, while all it does is make you look pretentious, sorry.

[Nymrohd]

Has it been explicitly stated yet it's on the other side of the planet, and I'm just behind the updates, or is that just an assumption based on the fact there's not much available space remaining on our side of Azeroth's face?

We know it was outside the original Kalimdor landmass. So it cannot be between them in the Maelstrom side; it has to be on the opposite side. It COULD potentially be far to the south of them but I think that would place it near the pole; I think when we see Azeroth as a globe, the continents both cross the equator (but I am not sure and I cannot check right now).

[AOL Instant Messenger]

We know it was outside the original Kalimdor landmass. So it cannot be between them in the Maelstrom side; it has to be on the opposite side. It COULD potentially be far to the south of them but I think that would place it near the pole; I think when we see Azeroth as a globe, the continents both cross the equator (but I am not sure and I cannot check right now).

Ahhh, that's fair enough. I suppose with that accounted for, the most sensible, space-saving option would be to put it on the other side. The other side of Azeroth's also been something we've wanted to explore for a while, so I'm certainly looking forward to seeing it.

[Nymrohd]

I almost hate it as much as people pretending Lovecraftian shit isn't the most boring thing imaginable and simply does not work in a video game.

There are really many ways to do Lovecraftian horror. Sure you can go with verbose prose and the horror of dissociative psychosis which is at the core of "cosmic" horror which is not really easy to do in a video game (it can be done, just not in the MMORPG medium). But you can also go with the angle of "insanity be exposure to evil". They absolutely could do a cinematic when we peer into N'zoth's brain and see a classic "EVIL" montage (body horror, rape, cannibalism on a mass scale etc). Open your mind to the Void and witness the possibilites of flesh or something like that. For me that is the central theme of the Old Gods, FLESH. They are masses of flesh, the environment arounds them looks like it is made of flesh and it is suffering, they inflicted the curse of flesh. The purple energies and tentacles are so secondary. Their evil comes in inflicting not just mortality (which is not evil in itself) but also the trauma that comes with a form of flesh.
At least that's how I'd approach them.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

There are really many ways to do Lovecraftian horror. Sure you can go with verbose prose and the horror of dissociative psychosis which is at the core of "cosmic" horror which is not really easy to do in a video game (it can be done, just not in the MMORPG medium). But you can also go with the angle of "insanity be exposure to evil". They absolutely could do a cinematic when we peer into N'zoth's brain and see a classic "EVIL" montage (body horror, rape, cannibalism on a mass scale etc). Open your mind to the Void and witness the possibilites of flesh or something like that. For me that is the central theme of the Old Gods, FLESH. They are masses of flesh, the environment arounds them looks like it is made of flesh and it is suffering, they inflicted the curse of flesh. The purple energies and tentacles are so secondary. Their evil comes in inflicting not just mortality (which is not evil in itself) but also the trauma that comes with a form of flesh.
At least that's how I'd approach them.

That is actually not a bad alternative approach—we'd have to expunge the second of the aforementioned horrors in your proposed montage on account not of concerns about the rating or sensitive content, but merely due to the probable unavailability of a cameo by Alex Afrasiabi, but I otherwise have to say I could see that working out. I'm not usually the biggest fan of buckets of blood and gore in horror, but they can serve their purpose perfectly well, and some good old-fashioned disturbing imagery to play at the more primordial instincts could be a nice way of communicating horror in a fashion to which the genre is more conducive. Of course, my implication was never that it had to be subtle in the first place—rather, my primary point was that the portrayal of N'Zoth was so flawed due to its excessive humanization of him, and the verbosity of the rewritten dialogue wasn't what I wanted to highlight. I had hoped instead to demonstrate how N'Zoth could be more effectively portrayed as an alien force than a fairly unimpressive typical WoW villain with a squid saying all his dialogue.

But, I digress. I'm far from unreceptive to this solution, and it could be fun to explore. I recall this sort of thing was more plentiful in the olden days of WoW, but has sort of fizzled off. I also have to agree very strongly on the front of emphasizing the Curse of Flesh and its consequences as a nice way of effectively tying their themes, history, and presentation together.

[Nymrohd]

And I'd say WoW already has done horror and done it well. Krastinov was horror. Thaddius was horror. Heck Brennadam was horror.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

And I'd say WoW already has done horror and done it well. Krastinov was horror. Thaddius was horror. Heck Brennadam was horror.

The prospect of playing up the visceral angle of the Old Gods has got my gears turning now, I confess, and I could see how that could especially work in connection to N'Zoth, who always had the most undefined theme of the Old Gods anyway. It is not difficult to envision an alternative variant of N'Zoth with a sort of sensory theme—associating N'Zoth with an overarching theme of indulgence, degeneracy, and miscellaneous such evils of the flesh would be an excellent means by which to tie him into the personality of certain agents of his (viz. Azshara) and to effectively distinguish him from his predecessors. It would give him a far more well-defined personality than the personality he was portrayed with in BfA, and could make for an extraordinarily memorable and, perhaps, disturbing antagonist. It would also allow Blizzard to split the difference and maintain all that interpersonal interaction necessary for an expansion antagonist without sacrificing his nature—perhaps in lieu of the dissociative and impersonal nature I advocated for, N'Zoth could maintain his status more effectively as a cosmic horror-type villain by acting as Nyarlathotep did, being something to bridge the gap. Such a theme of degeneracy and indulgence would especially suit him as the evident liaison of the Old Gods, whose machinations are most predicated on anthropomorphic agents, and perhaps would give him something to distinguish him from other intelligent (or allegedly-so) antagonists we've encountered in the past.

[Wangming]

Beyond that, the Old Gods shouldn't be humanized. They are not supposed to be human-like villains.

Well duh. They are old and they are gods. They are not meant to be relatable or even understandable. They should give off vibes like Sovereign on Virmire. Mass Effect 3 giving the Reapers a very understandable human goal was a huge mistake. Not sure I even like knowing where Old Gods come from and knowing a plan for them beyond being creepy and subversive.

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Writing is not wholly subjective though. Danuser has a degree in English literature, and has decades of history in writing.

Decades of history writing rule of cool maybe. People can pin bad decisions on Afrasiabi if they like, the guy probably deserves all the hate he gets, but the fact remains that as Danuser got promoted to higher and higher positions the story didn't improve and instead just added stuff that made you scratch your head. Meanwhile, the only complex villain that was original to WoW and not a character already established, was killed in Vanilla.
Now I'm not saying Danuser doesn't have strength as a writer. But subtlety, complex villains, grey morality or cool twists are not among them.

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And I'd say WoW already has done horror and done it well. Krastinov was horror. Thaddius was horror. Heck Brennadam was horror.

I'd say Drustvar was horror, but a different kind. Just the atmosphere of it all. You being alone in the dark cold woods with that ominous music in the background. Sometimes you don't even need writing to be creepy.