The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

I'd say Drustvar was horror, but a different kind. Just the atmosphere of it all. You being alone in the dark cold woods with that ominous music in the background. Sometimes you don't even need writing to be creepy.

Sometimes? Writing is usually not the best way to be creepy. Music and visuals are far better at evoking horror. That's the problem with Blizzard, they are quite bad at "show, don't tell". Drustvar had body horror, had a creepy child and the proper mood. But when it comes to old gods, they have told us too much and showed us not nearly enough. C'thun was far creepier when you find that night elf lady saying crazy things in the middle of a bug cave in Silithus than when you found him and he was just a huge eyeball. Yogg and N'zoth were never really scary at all, just big monsters.

[Makorus]

Well duh. They are old and they are gods. They are not meant to be relatable or even understandable. They should give off vibes like Sovereign on Virmire. Mass Effect 3 giving the Reapers a very understandable human goal was a huge mistake. Not sure I even like knowing where Old Gods come from and knowing a plan for them beyond being creepy and subversive.

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Decades of history writing rule of cool maybe. People can pin bad decisions on Afrasiabi if they like, the guy probably deserves all the hate he gets, but the fact remains that as Danuser got promoted to higher and higher positions the story didn't improve and instead just added stuff that made you scratch your head. Meanwhile, the only complex villain that was original to WoW and not a character already established, was killed in Vanilla.
Now I'm not saying Danuser doesn't have strength as a writer. But subtlety, complex villains, grey morality or cool twists are not among them.

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I'd say Drustvar was horror, but a different kind. Just the atmosphere of it all. You being alone in the dark cold woods with that ominous music in the background. Sometimes you don't even need writing to be creepy.

It's because they are writing a video game. When writing a video game, especially an MMO, you have to write a certain way.

Casting pearls before swines and all that. 90% of the playerbase would consider Arthas standing somewhere randomly in the Shadowlands to be good writing lmao

[Sondrelk]

Has it been explicitly stated yet it's on the other side of the planet, and I'm just behind the updates, or is that just an assumption based on the fact there's not much available space remaining on our side of Azeroth's face?

It's just speculation so far, but it fits the bill perfectly given what we know.
For one we know that Avaloren was seemingly not on the supercontinent Kalimdor given mentions of ships travelling there. And the mention of no ships returning sound eerily similar to no ships returning after sailing beyond the map we have of Azeroth now.

Now that being said, it could be closer to the current map. The Dragon Isles was also a larger continent that was originally not a part of ancient Kalimdor, so it's not like it's impossible. It just feels likely given what we know.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

It's just speculation so far, but it fits the bill perfectly given what we know.
For one we know that Avaloren was seemingly not on the supercontinent Kalimdor given mentions of ships travelling there. And the mention of no ships returning sound eerily similar to no ships returning after sailing beyond the map we have of Azeroth now.

Now that being said, it could be closer to the current map. The Dragon Isles was also a larger continent that was originally not a part of ancient Kalimdor, so it's not like it's impossible. It just feels likely given what we know.

As I said to my prior interlocutor, that's all perfectly fair. I'm certainly looking forward to going there, if so, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who's always been quite fascinated by what's back there.

[Sondrelk]

Sometimes? Writing is usually not the best way to be creepy. Music and visuals are far better at evoking horror. That's the problem with Blizzard, they are quite bad at "show, don't tell". Drustvar had body horror, had a creepy child and the proper mood. But when it comes to old gods, they have told us too much and showed us not nearly enough. C'thun was far creepier when you find that night elf lady saying crazy things in the middle of a bug cave in Silithus than when you found him and he was just a huge eyeball. Yogg and N'zoth were never really scary at all, just big monsters.

I think that is the limitation of the game. The artstyle as well as the mechanics of this being a raiding focused experience.
Both C'thun and even more so Yogg-Saron were scary in the buildup. Going deeper into their lair with the music and ambience really selling that you were not supposed to be there.
After all that its still not that easy to make a giant head that scary, even if it has mouths instead of eyes.

Fighting them will in a sense always be a letdown. Even after the buildup tends to be stellar.

[Varodoc]

Well duh. They are old and they are gods. They are not meant to be relatable or even understandable. They should give off vibes like Sovereign on Virmire. Mass Effect 3 giving the Reapers a very understandable human goal was a huge mistake. Not sure I even like knowing where Old Gods come from and knowing a plan for them beyond being creepy and subversive.

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Decades of history writing rule of cool maybe. People can pin bad decisions on Afrasiabi if they like, the guy probably deserves all the hate he gets, but the fact remains that as Danuser got promoted to higher and higher positions the story didn't improve and instead just added stuff that made you scratch your head. Meanwhile, the only complex villain that was original to WoW and not a character already established, was killed in Vanilla.
Now I'm not saying Danuser doesn't have strength as a writer. But subtlety, complex villains, grey morality or cool twists are not among them.

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I'd say Drustvar was horror, but a different kind. Just the atmosphere of it all. You being alone in the dark cold woods with that ominous music in the background. Sometimes you don't even need writing to be creepy.

It's funny how you reply "well duh" when people in this very thread think N'Zoth should be a morally grey double agent of the Light lmfao. Evidently, these guys here didn't quite get the memo that N'Zoth is an eldritch horror and these villains usually aren't relatable.

The Old Gods are objectively better than the Reapers from Mass Effect because they were created by the Void Lords, who are also eldritch horrors, and their nature even terrified Sargeras. Meanwhile, the Reapers from Mass Effect were created by a literal toddler, you don't get any more pathetic than that.

[Wangming]

It's because they are writing a video game. When writing a video game, especially an MMO, you have to write a certain way.

Oh damn. Someone better tell Ishikawa that her writing is not appropriate for MMORPGs. Granted she got nearly universal praise for the expansions she wrote from players and critics alike, so maybe it is too late to tell her that.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Oh damn. Someone better tell Ishikawa that her writing is not appropriate for MMORPGs. Granted she got nearly universal praise for the expansions she wrote from players and critics alike, so maybe it is too late to tell her that.

And outside the realm of MMORPGs, let's not forget the likes of FromSoftware.

[Wangming]

It's funny how you reply "well duh" when people in this very thread think N'Zoth should be a morally grey double agent of the Light lmfao. Evidently, these guys here didn't quite get the memo that N'Zoth is an eldritch horror and these villains usually aren't relatable.

The Old Gods are objectively better than the Reapers from Mass Effect because they were created by the Void Lords, who are also eldritch horrors, and their nature even terrified Sargeras. Meanwhile, the Reapers from Mass Effect were created by a literal toddler, you don't get any more pathetic than that.

And the toddler was created by gigantic sea monsters. But I digress.
You are correct that some people still think Old Gods are meant to be relatable and even redeemable, but I jusz zone those comments out.

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And outside the realm of MMORPGs, let's not forget the likes of FromSoftware.

Or better yet people like Yoko Taro, who actually uses the medium to his advantage. Like how playthrough after the first one reveal additional information to you actually not present in the first one. new info that mostly makes you cry and question whether you are the good guy or not.

[Nymrohd]

You are correct that some people still think Old Gods are meant to be relatable and even redeemable, but I jusz zone those comments out.

For quite a few people it seems the thought process is "Void is opposed to Light. Light is authority (and perhaps organized religion). All authority is evil therefore Light is evil, ergo Void should be good or at least have the potential to be good."

[AOL Instant Messenger]

For quite a few people it seems the thought process is "Void is opposed to Light. Light is authority (and perhaps organized religion). All authority is evil therefore Light is evil, ergo Void should be good or at least have the potential to be good."

Ugh, isn't that a grating recurrence? It's insufferable to me for quite a few reasons, chief of which are because it is symptomatic of the modern proclivity in writing towards confusing deconstruction and destruction and because it's no less one-dimensional and idiotic to determine that all authority, no matter its source or nature, is evil in its efforts to prevent you from doing whatever you want without consequence. Evidently, there can be no superior wisdom to one's own intuition, no matter how extreme one may be in their undertakings or motivations, nor how wise certain other powers might be. Rather than render authority subject to inquiry so as to separate the just from the unjust, isn't it so much simpler (for simplicity always compensates for efficacy, truly) to register all sources of authority of any kind as objectively evil?

[Nymrohd]

Ugh, isn't that a grating recurrence? It's insufferable to me for quite a few reasons, chief of which are because it is symptomatic of the modern proclivity in writing towards confusing deconstruction and destruction and because it's no less one-dimensional and idiotic to determine that all authority, no matter its source or nature, is evil in its efforts to prevent you from doing whatever you want without consequence. Evidently, there can be no superior wisdom to one's own intuition, no matter how extreme one may be in their undertakings or motivations, nor how wise certain other powers might be. Rather than render authority subject to inquiry so as to separate the just from the unjust, isn't it so much simpler (for simplicity always compensates for efficacy, truly) to register all sources of authority of any kind as objectively evil?

The idea of "All authority is evil", similar to anti-intellectualism are just the natural conclusions of Western individualism.

[Skildar]

And I'd say WoW already has done horror and done it well. Krastinov was horror. Thaddius was horror. Heck Brennadam was horror.

Even if they are horror, I wouldn't go as far as saying it was done well as none of these worked on me. One of the problems with these in wow is that the camera and lightening are wow's worst sickness. It made Drustvar witch forest look pale and peaceful and it takes players minutes to notice it when they have entered a morbid place floored with cadavers.

[Nymrohd]

Even if they are horror, I wouldn't go as far as saying it was done well as none of these worked on me. One of the problems with these in wow is that the camera and lightening are wow's worst sickness. It made Drustvar witch forest look pale and peaceful and it takes players minutes to notice it when they have entered a morbid place floored with cadavers.

Krastinov's original story in Scholo from Strat wasn't horror to you? Or the constant screams on the way to Thaddius?

[Kiivar86]

We know it was outside the original Kalimdor landmass. So it cannot be between them in the Maelstrom side; it has to be on the opposite side. It COULD potentially be far to the south of them but I think that would place it near the pole; I think when we see Azeroth as a globe, the continents both cross the equator (but I am not sure and I cannot check right now).

We also know it is some distance away given that the report mentioning it talks about several failed expeditions to it.

[Makorus]

Oh damn. Someone better tell Ishikawa that her writing is not appropriate for MMORPGs. Granted she got nearly universal praise for the expansions she wrote from players and critics alike, so maybe it is too late to tell her that.

FFXIV is a completely different game and fails as an MMO.

[Nymrohd]

FFXIV fails as an MMO.

That's a bold statement

[Skildar]

Krastinov's original story in Scholo from Strat wasn't horror to you? Or the constant screams on the way to Thaddius?

I don't remember Krastinov original story, I should read it up on wowpedia.
But the constant screaming is a nice addition I would say. Take Sanctum of Domination or Icecrown Citadel, you could hear screaming on a whole level of these raids but I was never felt stressed out by it. There is room for horror in wow but techniques should be adapted to make it work.

I think the only scenario that worked well on me in terms of horror was the ulna one where you are in very very dark forest, and black shades with glowing eyes are slowly coming towards you from all sides. At the same time you hear this little girl all afraid and whimping clinging to you for aid.

The other one I have in mind is not really horror but I was kind of stressed out by it, probably because it was the first time I didn't feel safe in wow. In zul farrak when you ring the gong, a horde if trolls appear and you have to push them off as they climb the pyramid. It was a good and stressful experience, but weirdly enough this one doesn't work at all today ^^

[Wangming]

That's a bold statement

Weird way to spell dumb.

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I think the only scenario that worked well on me in terms of horror was the ulna one where you are in very very dark forest, and black shades with glowing eyes are slowly coming towards you from all sides. At the same time you hear this little girl all afraid and whimping clinging to you for aid.

Our original venture into the Shadowlands. All that potential wasted.....sigh

[Makorus]

That's a bold statement

Not gonna derail this thread any more, but the only thing people praise about FFXIV is the story, and that might as well be a single player game.

The most common complaint about the MSQ is the dungeons you have to do.

Outside of that, dungeons are irrelevant,and raids are the definition of a 20 minutes choreography, which is the worst part about WoW raiding