The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Fair point. Though I still think that would be difficult to write into the story. Especially for characters who are meant to stay in the story for longer like Tess. Flynn worked as such becuase he was effectively a bit character, and even with that he needed to become effectively a government agent once the story wanted to keep him around.

The noble who runs away or operates undercover to have adventures is a rogue. It's extremely common even, I could list you several from CRPGs if you want. Heck, Zelda is a Rogue!

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I think her motivations as someone who specifically wants to help the downtrodden of Westfall does mean that a change like what we saw here would be warranted. It was either this, or having her become a proper villain down the line. Having her exist in a hypothetical frenemy relationship would just make the Defias impossible to write. You can't both have them be freedom fighters, AND enemy of the people. Even more so when Westfall is clearly shown as being developed.

I think that's a very one-dimensional approach—just because Westfall specifically has been helped doesn't strictly mean that the Defias have no further reason to be motivated, nor does it mean that Vanessa has no reason to remain spiteful towards Stormwind. Indeed, on the point of it being impossible to write a group as existing in superposition between a cruel terrorist group of thugs and a group of ideologically-radical revolutionaries seeking a particular objective for the perceived benefit of the people, isn't that just how revolutionaries are? Rarely are they entirely unjustified, and rarely are they not disastrous for everyone between them and their oft-delusory objectives. Wouldn't it be sensible for the Defias to extend the breadth of their ire towards injustices leveled by government in general, especially since there would undoubtedly be many second-generation Defias like Vanessa whose primary experience with Stormwind is as murderers and oppressors? By this point in the timeline, the could even be a rising population of people born into the Defias reaching adulthood. It could be quite interesting to have the Defias intermittently appear whenever Stormwind – or any other Alliance member, for that matter – crosses a certain threshold, creating the opportunity for many grayscale conflicts into the future?

This way the story can keep using the Defias in future storylines without issue now that they are specifically set up as radicalized thugs. And Vanessa can stick around as firmly on the side of Westfall, without having to be a leader of someone who is clearly shown to kill wantonly.

And that's precisely my point—revolutions are hardly things done with clean hands. The sad fact is that you can't separate such groups in reality into cleanly-divided factions of violent thugs and earnest revolutionaries, because the two can quite frequently overlap to such a point that they become indistinguishable. Were the Defias to remain in-character, and Vanessa to do the same, even Anduin's appeals may fall flat. Perhaps some would even welcome the new order, yet refuse to collaborate with it. They would remain an extralegal organization, maintaining the interests of those they perceive as the oppressed, even while exploiting those very same people to fund themselves.

Envision, for instance, a situation in which Rogue players experienced regular run-ins with the renascent Defias Brotherhood, alternatively assisting them in rectifying legitimate injustices or undermining them when they overstep, and such an approach would demand a great deal of oscillation in one's interactions with the Brotherhood. It would certainly be suitable for Rogues to have capricious allies of convenience, groups that they aid and betray at a moment's notice depending solely on circumstance. This was precisely how we interacted with them back in Legion, and this is something which I think ought to have set the standard for the Defias going forward.

I would also be inclined to suggest that it's out-of-character for Vanessa to suddenly become nothing more than a representative of regional group interests when she previously was portrayed as someone very fundamentally different—it wasn't as though Westfall was the primary thing on her mind. Insofar as I read her, she was an opportunistic and deeply ideological person with irreconcilable differences with the powers that be. She was a terrorist through-and-through, whose radicalism led her to stage a failed coup against the Uncrowned (as zeal, I suppose, does not compensate much for competence), and who was clearly beyond any reconciliation with Stormwind. She had no reason to dwell now on the Stonemasons' compensation—this was never a concern that would make sense for her, as such a controversy would have come and gone by the time she took over the Defias. Instead, her perspective of Stormwind was shaped by her father's head being lobbed off in front of her during early childhood, an undoubtedly unpleasant experience that would certainly embitter her to the kingdom such that token negotiations could not resolve her gripes.

What has been done to ease her frustrations? A payment has been made, certainly, but nothing happened to see her father's head glued back to his corpse, nor did the Defias experience any compensation for the years of what they would perceive as unjust casualties brought on by the Alliance's war machine. Further, she's already dug herself quite irreversibly into the position of terrorist—undoubtedly innocent people have been killed, a major town torched, and countless lives spent fighting the Alliance on her orders. Would someone whose entire life has been spent fighting the Alliance really so rapidly become placidly ambivalent towards them as soon as the immediate economic concerns of her region were addressed? I doubt it. I figure that by this point the sunk cost fallacy would've sunk in for her, and I don't see any reason for her to go back. Besides, where is she supposed to go? Hope Saldean and Vanessa VanCleef are known to be the same person, and she presumably isn't going to be welcome by the people she terrorized for their own alleged good.

[Wangming]

That is the main issue with writing Rogues though. Being that they are effectively spies and/or assassins it only really makes sense for them to follow some kind of agenda. Said agenda will either by with us, or against us, otherwise it's meaningless to even have them in the game.
What this means is that characters like Vanessa will always either gravitate towards enemy, or government agent in some form.

Well either that, or you make them pirates, which is always a fun idea.

Or just a shady NGO with ultimately good goals. Or even unclear goals. Like how old Star Wars EU had the GenoHaradan who kinda supported the Republic because a Galaxy-sized bureaucratic organization helps them go about seeking their goals. What those goals are, is ultimately unknown.

Orr we can go the AC route and have a Rogue team compete with the Scarlet Crusade in who gets to claim the most Titan artifacts.

Orrrrr just make them dual-blades for hire that work for the highest bidder and don't take sides.

Orrrrrrrrrrr if they really MUST be government agents, give the Horde an equal organizations so that these two can compete in who outspyes the other.

There are so many ways to do Rogues if you are creative.

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And that's precisely my point—revolutions are hardly things done with clean hands. The sad fact is that you can't separate such groups in reality into cleanly-divided factions of violent thugs and earnest revolutionaries, because the two can quite frequently overlap to such a point that they become indistinguishable. Were the Defias to remain in-character, and Vanessa to do the same, even Anduin's appeals may fall flat. Perhaps some would even welcome the new order, yet refuse to collaborate with it. They would remain an extralegal organization, maintaining the interests of those they perceive as the oppressed, even while exploiting those very same people to fund themselves.

Not to derail the topic again with mention of the unnameable game, but Stormblood was amazing in this regard. Fordola was a spiteful mass murderer, but she believed what she was doing was right. And it is natural that she had no sympathy for his countrymen after they stoned his father for death for the unspeakable crime of trying to provide a stable life for his family.
And yes, she does end up working for "the government", but it is more of a suicide squad kind of arrangement, and her mellowing down happens on screen over several expansions.
Oh and the people that suffered because of her, still fucking hate her. They don't let it slide even after she saves their lives.

[Lahis]

It's literally the same thing for Core races... they get Heritage armour by earning Exalted with their faction, and you earn this only by levelling/doing quests.

Besides, Allied races get one quest for their Heritage armour, which is a turn-in quest... which is exactly what I'm complaining about.

You get sporadic main city rep if you quest in Vanilla zones. Most areas don't give any rep to main cities and expansion zones exclusively give only expansion reputations.

[Varodoc]

You get sporadic main city rep if you quest in Vanilla zones. Most areas don't give any rep to main cities and expansion zones exclusively give only expansion reputations.

This is objectively wrong in the case of Humans, I reached Exalted by simply levelling through the 4 main zones of the kingdom.

And I'd gladly trade having to level up to 50 for a unique Heritage questline, thank you very much. I fail to see how that would be a bad exchange

Especially since Allied races are in dire need of more development.

[Wangming]

Especially since Allied races are in dire need of more development.

Hopefully, the inevitable world revamp would provide us with quest hubs and permanent settlements built and/or occupied by Allied Races. Hell even the Unallied expansion races need more love.
And Night Elves and Trolls because whenever they get development, things just become worst for them.

[Varodoc]

Hopefully, the inevitable world revamp would provide us with quest hubs and permanent settlements built and/or occupied by Allied Races. Hell even the Unallied expansion races need more love.
And Night Elves and Trolls because whenever they get development, things just become worst for them.

I mean, these guys in this thread think that the Scenario unlock questline is all the Allied races need.

[Nymrohd]

I think heritage quests are very varied. Quite a few of them just do not focus on heritage. From what I am seeing, the orc one is very much on point. Some in the past have been laughable like the Worgen one.

Meanwhile when it comes to allied races, some of their recruitment scenarios definitely showcased their heritage while others did a much worse job at it. Like, the vulpera one told us nothing about the vulpera which is a shame because neither did Vol'dun. And e.g. the Void Elves don't really have a heritage, they are just high elves who voided out.

[Kiivar86]

EVERYBODY is back, the orc heritage chain reads like a wishlist of old orc characters, the only guy who didn't show up that I was hoping for was Oronok Torn Heart, but everyone else is there.

Ariok, Rexxar, Leoroxx, Gorgonna, Gorfax Angerfang has gone from being a nobody to having some decent lines even

There's even a reference to the Flowerpicker clan apparently.

[Black Rider]

Orc Heritage was really cool quest chain

[Gurahk]

Ariok not being stuck in Draenor was a surprise. Now the question is how will they show off the Mag'har clans? Having them play out the same as the MU ones will feel a bit awkward.
Hope they'll keep them unique by having them play out more like the Iron Horde, through the usage of machinery and more 'primal' orc culture.

[Lahis]

Ariok not being stuck in Draenor was a surprise. Now the question is how will they show off the Mag'har clans? Having them play out the same as the MU ones will feel a bit awkward.
Hope they'll keep them unique by having them play out more like the Iron Horde, through the usage of machinery and more 'primal' orc culture.

AU Mag'har remaining a separate thing from MU orc clans feels strange at this point. They are all orcs that live on the same world and up untill 45 years ago their history and heritage was identical. AU Mag'har could help orcs regaining some traditions they still remember better than the MU orcs after all the legion meddling.

Thrall and his sister should also get to interact more.

[RahEndymion]

I mean, these guys in this thread think that the Scenario unlock questline is all the Allied races need.

Wasn't the whole point of AR's to increase character race selection without all of the sundry work that goes with a full implementation of a playable race? Until recently, that scenario unlock questline and heritage armor was more than OG playable races had in terms of modern content..

Plus, aren't there less than 100 void elves total? If I'm correct there's Alleria who isn't even really a void elf and then the true void elves which are Umbric and gang? Would be a little weird for them to have their own city or be overly represented on screen when they're whole 'race' has a smaller population than Goldshire Inn.

[Murlocos]

Orc heritage felt like an apology for the past decade of orcs being regressed into their Warcraft 2 characterization. I don't think the human questline was terrible, but it stands no chance against arguably the best heritage questline to date. Forsaken and night elves really need heritage questlines on that level that really affirm the race's identity and presence in the modern day.

[Skytotem]

Orc heritage felt like an apology for the past decade of orcs being regressed into their Warcraft 2 characterization. I don't think the human questline was terrible, but it stands no chance against arguably the best heritage questline to date. Forsaken and night elves really need heritage questlines on that level that really affirm the race's identity and presence in the modern day.

Agreed, there were so many characters and seeds planted for future plot arcs.

[BaumanKing]

The human questline isn't terrible, but isn't great either. Their heritage seems to revolve around Onyxia, which is kind of weird. It would've been nice if we delved into Stormwind's past instead (First War, Gnoll War, Gurubashi War), but alas. I also didn't like how during the flashback Windsor wasn't with Varian, Valeera and Broll. Blizzard writers either don't know about the comic or just decided to retcon it. Shaw was boring as always, but Vanessa was cool. I hope she and Cecilia will end up together. They're a good pair. It was also funny that Turalyon is never mentioned in the entire questline. I'm glad Blizzard finally listened and stopped shining a spotlight on characters like him.

[Darkarath]

Glad to see that most people enjoyed the heritage questlines. Meanwhile I am having such a nice time in The Forbidden Reach. I am surprised to say that I really enjoyed the cutscenes of Emberthal and Ebyssian (which looks pretty cool with that white paint and drakonid eyes IMO). Its been a while since I actually was interested in some questline or characters.

I also have entered the new solo instance which seems entertaining enough. Still trying the new ring but it seems pretty powerful, which is awesome for a casual player like me, Catch-up gear is also very welcomed.

In conclusion, it seems that they have done a really good job with a minor patch like this, and makes me hopeful for 10.1, which I think that seems just ok, but time will tell.

[Super Dickmann]

Even as a traumatized mind control victim in exile Anduin still manages to defuse conflict and destroy a long-lasting antagonist faction by paying reparations and cleaning up the House of Nobles off-screen and retroactively.

Not that anyone with a pulse is surprised by this turn of events.

[Sondrelk]

The human questline isn't terrible, but isn't great either. Their heritage seems to revolve around Onyxia, which is kind of weird. It would've been nice if we delved into Stormwind's past instead (First War, Gnoll War, Gurubashi War), but alas. I also didn't like how during the flashback Windsor wasn't with Varian, Valeera and Broll. Blizzard writers either don't know about the comic or just decided to retcon it. Shaw was boring as always, but Vanessa was cool. I hope she and Cecilia will end up together. They're a good pair. It was also funny that Turalyon is never mentioned in the entire questline. I'm glad Blizzard finally listened and stopped shining a spotlight on characters like him.

Yeah, it's not great. It's perfectly serviceable for what it is, but feels like it could have done with some more in-depth stuff, rather than being what is effectively a fetch quest in low level zones.
At least it did set up a new Defias threat with the radical new leader who ousted Vanessa. So hopefully we do actually have a world revamp and get to go back to Westfall and see what happens with that.

I imagine the characters were not with Windsor because it was designed around the possibility that your character had done the original quest, and could therefore be inserted into the scene. Would have been weird to have a completely different setup than what the player would have had.

[Maljinwo]

Where tf is the troll beards

Knowing how Blizzard treats trolls, they will add ONE troll beard model and it will replace the Darkspear heritage armor
They'll probably kill Rokhan too for good measure as they haven't killed a troll leader in almost 2 expansions