The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I guess after circumstances forced her to work alongside all of them in Legion she kinda mellowed down. Plus it is hard to fight against Varian when he has been dead for years now. Still it would be nice for her to stay as a sort of anti-hero. Her conclusion on: "Guess I'll hand out soup to people" Is pretty much a character assassination.

I could see her mellowing out as a result of her experiences at the time—my primary gripe is that outright defilement of her character. That she would implicitly retire as a Rogue after spending such a long period of time leading the Defias, much yet reduce herself to another placid Anduinite, is terrible for her. As I said before, I think the idea of her oscillating between antagonism and heroism would be suitable for her personality and general degree of now-erstwhile nuance.

[Nymrohd]

I could see her mellowing out as a result of her experiences at the time—my primary gripe is that outright defilement of her character. That she would implicitly retire as a Rogue after spending such a long period of time leading the Defias, much yet reduce herself to another placid Anduinite, is terrible for her. As I said before, I think the idea of her oscillating between antagonism and heroism would be suitable for her personality and general degree of now-erstwhile nuance.

Why call people who want peace Anduinites? Jaina behaved like that before Blizzard had even come up with Anduin. This narrative for the Alliance is very clearly Blizzard's choice for the faction; Anduin and how Golden has written him is just the instrument for that narrative purpose. When the plot repeatedly has characters change their personality regardless of Anduin's proximity, the issue is clearly the narrative choice Blizzard has made for the Alliance and not Anduin's character arc (which is far more nuanced than the faction's development is).

[Skildar]

I'm not quite sure if I like that, either—it feels out-of-character for Shaw. I think the idea of trying to reconcile with the Stonemasons without any strings is perfectly sensible and would be nice, though most of the Defias' hardliners, such as VanCleef herself would obviously refuse and maintain their status as a terrorist organization. I think the Defias are very good long-term villains, or better yet a faction which could oscillate under VanCleef between heroism and villainy under different circumstances, and squandering them in any way would be pretty inadvisable. VanCleef definitely shouldn't have been reduced to an Anduinite, regardless.

I'm not sure it would be out of character for Shaw but I went hard because I don't see us coming back to stormwind or westmarch any time soon to play with these characters again. I guess it's one more reason to have more media that tell the stories of Azeroth. There used to be a time where books were written about other topics than the main expansion... They involve way less effort and people than a tv show like arcane or creating another side game.

[Wangming]

EVERYBODY is back, the orc heritage chain reads like a wishlist of old orc characters, the only guy who didn't show up that I was hoping for was Oronok Torn Heart, but everyone else is there.

Ariok, Rexxar, Leoroxx, Gorgonna, Gorfax Angerfang has gone from being a nobody to having some decent lines even

I'm not an orc kinda guy, but that questline really does sound like what orc players need.

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I could see her mellowing out as a result of her experiences at the time—my primary gripe is that outright defilement of her character. That she would implicitly retire as a Rogue after spending such a long period of time leading the Defias, much yet reduce herself to another placid Anduinite, is terrible for her. As I said before, I think the idea of her oscillating between antagonism and heroism would be suitable for her personality and general degree of now-erstwhile nuance.

It is kinda sad that the only career option for rogues is enemy or government agent. Tess also became a rogue, but Hearthstone has more ideas what to do with her than actual WoW. Meh.

[Varodoc]

Allied Races don't get heritage quests. Their heritage armor is simply gotten from levelling from 10 to 60.

It's literally the same thing for Core races... they get Heritage armour by earning Exalted with their faction, and you earn this only by levelling/doing quests.

Besides, Allied races get one quest for their Heritage armour, which is a turn-in quest... which is exactly what I'm complaining about.

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The equivalent for that is the actual unlock questline.

And in general, they can't just re-make older things/create new stuff every time something else gets a new shiny update.

Worgen and Goblin also had unique questlines and even unique zones for those questlines, on top of that they also got unique questlines for their heritage armour.

[Sondrelk]

It's literally the same thing for Core races... they get Heritage armour by earning Exalted with their faction, and you earn this only by levelling/doing quests.

Besides, Allied races get one quest for their Heritage armour, which is a turn-in quest... which is exactly what I'm complaining about.

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Worgen and Goblin also had unique questlines and even unique zones for those questlines, on top of that they also got unique questlines for their heritage armour.

Allied Races have the unlock questline though, which I think you are ignoring. Void Elves had the big questline where you ran around the Ghostlands looking for clues, eventually ending up in Telogrus Rift and recruiting them.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Why call people who want peace Anduinites? Jaina behaved like that before Blizzard had even come up with Anduin. This narrative for the Alliance is very clearly Blizzard's choice for the faction; Anduin and how Golden has written him is just the instrument for that narrative purpose. When the plot repeatedly has characters change their personality regardless of Anduin's proximity, the issue is clearly the narrative choice Blizzard has made for the Alliance and not Anduin's character arc (which is far more nuanced than the faction's development is).

I was speaking in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek fashion (though in partial reference to Anduin's reaching out to the Stonemasons), as I'm aware that she's not yet been recruited into the cult directly. I do, however, legitimately think that she's received the personality replacement and neutering necessary to become one—indeed, such a profound, implicitly permanent, and thoroughly nonsensical change is wholly suitable for the new cast. I would also note that such a change is not quite comparable to the likes of Jaina, even in her WotLK-era doormat stage, as there is a particular set of qualities that I am referencing beyond the peaceful nature many of the sort have. What has happened here is a character wholly stripped of any personality whatsoever, the nuance and interesting qualities that originally went into her demolished as though by a sledgehammer, and a totally unrecognizable character made from her. This new, flat personality that wholly contradicts her prior actions and characterization, along with a helping of stilted dialogue and nonsensical decision-making, certainly puts her well into that unfortunate category.

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I'm not sure it would be out of character for Shaw but I went hard because I don't see us coming back to stormwind or westmarch any time soon to play with these characters again. I guess it's one more reason to have more media that tell the stories of Azeroth. There used to be a time where books were written about other topics than the main expansion... They involve way less effort and people than a tv show like arcane or creating another side game.

Eh, I still can't buy it. I think it's unnecessary to finish off the Defias for good, and murdering Vanessa and this kind of personality replacement she just got are really not that different, as both remove an interesting character from the setting inexorably and unnecessarily.

[Sondrelk]

I'm not an orc kinda guy, but that questline really does sound like what orc players need.

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It is kinda sad that the only career option for rogues is enemy or government agent. Tess also became a rogue, but Hearthstone has more ideas what to do with her than actual WoW. Meh.

That is the main issue with writing Rogues though. Being that they are effectively spies and/or assassins it only really makes sense for them to follow some kind of agenda. Said agenda will either by with us, or against us, otherwise it's meaningless to even have them in the game.
What this means is that characters like Vanessa will always either gravitate towards enemy, or government agent in some form.

Well either that, or you make them pirates, which is always a fun idea.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

That is the main issue with writing Rogues though. Being that they are effectively spies and/or assassins it only really makes sense for them to follow some kind of agenda. Said agenda will either by with us, or against us, otherwise it's meaningless to even have them in the game.
What this means is that characters like Vanessa will always either gravitate towards enemy, or government agent in some form.

Well either that, or you make them pirates, which is always a fun idea.

Well, the nature of her personality means she'd have a fairly good reason to oscillate between heroism and antagonism, right? I think such a state would be ideal, and would preempt a personality replacement. Besides, a nuanced character in a variable position is always a good thing.

[Nymrohd]

That is the main issue with writing Rogues though. Being that they are effectively spies and/or assassins it only really makes sense for them to follow some kind of agenda. Said agenda will either by with us, or against us, otherwise it's meaningless to even have them in the game.
What this means is that characters like Vanessa will always either gravitate towards enemy, or government agent in some form.

Well either that, or you make them pirates, which is always a fun idea.

That's not really true for rogues. Any swashbuckler would be a rogue. Heck most class systems allow a rogue to be both melee and ranged. The generic adventurer and explorer be it treasure hunter or knowledge seeker is a rogue.

[Sondrelk]

Eh, I still can't buy it. I think it's unnecessary to finish off the Defias for good, and murdering Vanessa and this kind of personality replacement she just got are really not that different, as both remove an interesting character from the setting inexorably and unnecessarily.

I think this change in the Defias was very much needed. It was in many ways the only reasonable ending to the Westfall storyline. The idea that you could have Defias as disgruntled Stonemasons was one that would inevitably become more difficult to accept with time, and Westfall was supposedly being fixed over time.
I suppose they could have kept them going with Anduins disappearance, but the idea that the Defias splintered into radicals and those who just wanted to go back home to Stormwind/Live peacefully in Westfall, made perfect sense to me. And once that happened you really only could have Vanessa either join the radicals, or keep helping the people of Westfall. You couldnt have both when the Defias are explicitly a band of highway bandits.
In that sense her choice to go back to helping the mdowntrodden more directly does make sense. And it's not like she is no longer trained as a Rogue and Alchemist, she just didnt want to join SI:7 as an agent when she could instead stay in Westfall.

[Varodoc]

Allied Races have the unlock questline though, which I think you are ignoring. Void Elves had the big questline where you ran around the Ghostlands looking for clues, eventually ending up in Telogrus Rift and recruiting them.

Worgen and Goblin also have a unique questline and even unique instanced zone only they can access, and Core races also have unique hubs and themed zones that are bigger than anything Allied races have except for Nightborne, Kul Tirans, and Zandalari.

[Sondrelk]

Well, the nature of her personality means she'd have a fairly good reason to oscillate between heroism and antagonism, right? I think such a state would be ideal, and would preempt a personality replacement. Besides, a nuanced character in a variable position is always a good thing.

I think her motivations as someone who specifically wants to help the downtrodden of Westfall does mean that a change like what we saw here would be warranted. It was either this, or having her become a proper villain down the line. Having her exist in a hypothetical frenemy relationship would just make the Defias impossible to write. You can't both have them be freedom fighters, AND enemy of the people. Even more so when Westfall is clearly shown as being developed.

This way the story can keep using the Defias in future storylines without issue now that they are specifically set up as radicalized thugs. And Vanessa can stick around as firmly on the side of Westfall, without having to be a leader of someone who is clearly shown to kill wantonly.

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That's not really true for rogues. Any swashbuckler would be a rogue. Heck most class systems allow a rogue to be both melee and ranged. The generic adventurer and explorer be it treasure hunter or knowledge seeker is a rogue.

Fair point. Though I still think that would be difficult to write into the story. Especially for characters who are meant to stay in the story for longer like Tess. Flynn worked as such becuase he was effectively a bit character, and even with that he needed to become effectively a government agent once the story wanted to keep him around.

[Nymrohd]

Fair point. Though I still think that would be difficult to write into the story. Especially for characters who are meant to stay in the story for longer like Tess. Flynn worked as such becuase he was effectively a bit character, and even with that he needed to become effectively a government agent once the story wanted to keep him around.

The noble who runs away or operates undercover to have adventures is a rogue. It's extremely common even, I could list you several from CRPGs if you want. Heck, Zelda is a Rogue!

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I think her motivations as someone who specifically wants to help the downtrodden of Westfall does mean that a change like what we saw here would be warranted. It was either this, or having her become a proper villain down the line. Having her exist in a hypothetical frenemy relationship would just make the Defias impossible to write. You can't both have them be freedom fighters, AND enemy of the people. Even more so when Westfall is clearly shown as being developed.

I think that's a very one-dimensional approach—just because Westfall specifically has been helped doesn't strictly mean that the Defias have no further reason to be motivated, nor does it mean that Vanessa has no reason to remain spiteful towards Stormwind. Indeed, on the point of it being impossible to write a group as existing in superposition between a cruel terrorist group of thugs and a group of ideologically-radical revolutionaries seeking a particular objective for the perceived benefit of the people, isn't that just how revolutionaries are? Rarely are they entirely unjustified, and rarely are they not disastrous for everyone between them and their oft-delusory objectives. Wouldn't it be sensible for the Defias to extend the breadth of their ire towards injustices leveled by government in general, especially since there would undoubtedly be many second-generation Defias like Vanessa whose primary experience with Stormwind is as murderers and oppressors? By this point in the timeline, the could even be a rising population of people born into the Defias reaching adulthood. It could be quite interesting to have the Defias intermittently appear whenever Stormwind – or any other Alliance member, for that matter – crosses a certain threshold, creating the opportunity for many grayscale conflicts into the future?

This way the story can keep using the Defias in future storylines without issue now that they are specifically set up as radicalized thugs. And Vanessa can stick around as firmly on the side of Westfall, without having to be a leader of someone who is clearly shown to kill wantonly.

And that's precisely my point—revolutions are hardly things done with clean hands. The sad fact is that you can't separate such groups in reality into cleanly-divided factions of violent thugs and earnest revolutionaries, because the two can quite frequently overlap to such a point that they become indistinguishable. Were the Defias to remain in-character, and Vanessa to do the same, even Anduin's appeals may fall flat. Perhaps some would even welcome the new order, yet refuse to collaborate with it. They would remain an extralegal organization, maintaining the interests of those they perceive as the oppressed, even while exploiting those very same people to fund themselves.

Envision, for instance, a situation in which Rogue players experienced regular run-ins with the renascent Defias Brotherhood, alternatively assisting them in rectifying legitimate injustices or undermining them when they overstep, and such an approach would demand a great deal of oscillation in one's interactions with the Brotherhood. It would certainly be suitable for Rogues to have capricious allies of convenience, groups that they aid and betray at a moment's notice depending solely on circumstance. This was precisely how we interacted with them back in Legion, and this is something which I think ought to have set the standard for the Defias going forward.

I would also be inclined to suggest that it's out-of-character for Vanessa to suddenly become nothing more than a representative of regional group interests when she previously was portrayed as someone very fundamentally different—it wasn't as though Westfall was the primary thing on her mind. Insofar as I read her, she was an opportunistic and deeply ideological person with irreconcilable differences with the powers that be. She was a terrorist through-and-through, whose radicalism led her to stage a failed coup against the Uncrowned (as zeal, I suppose, does not compensate much for competence), and who was clearly beyond any reconciliation with Stormwind. She had no reason to dwell now on the Stonemasons' compensation—this was never a concern that would make sense for her, as such a controversy would have come and gone by the time she took over the Defias. Instead, her perspective of Stormwind was shaped by her father's head being lobbed off in front of her during early childhood, an undoubtedly unpleasant experience that would certainly embitter her to the kingdom such that token negotiations could not resolve her gripes.

What has been done to ease her frustrations? A payment has been made, certainly, but nothing happened to see her father's head glued back to his corpse, nor did the Defias experience any compensation for the years of what they would perceive as unjust casualties brought on by the Alliance's war machine. Further, she's already dug herself quite irreversibly into the position of terrorist—undoubtedly innocent people have been killed, a major town torched, and countless lives spent fighting the Alliance on her orders. Would someone whose entire life has been spent fighting the Alliance really so rapidly become placidly ambivalent towards them as soon as the immediate economic concerns of her region were addressed? I doubt it. I figure that by this point the sunk cost fallacy would've sunk in for her, and I don't see any reason for her to go back. Besides, where is she supposed to go? Hope Saldean and Vanessa VanCleef are known to be the same person, and she presumably isn't going to be welcome by the people she terrorized for their own alleged good.

[Wangming]

That is the main issue with writing Rogues though. Being that they are effectively spies and/or assassins it only really makes sense for them to follow some kind of agenda. Said agenda will either by with us, or against us, otherwise it's meaningless to even have them in the game.
What this means is that characters like Vanessa will always either gravitate towards enemy, or government agent in some form.

Well either that, or you make them pirates, which is always a fun idea.

Or just a shady NGO with ultimately good goals. Or even unclear goals. Like how old Star Wars EU had the GenoHaradan who kinda supported the Republic because a Galaxy-sized bureaucratic organization helps them go about seeking their goals. What those goals are, is ultimately unknown.

Orr we can go the AC route and have a Rogue team compete with the Scarlet Crusade in who gets to claim the most Titan artifacts.

Orrrrr just make them dual-blades for hire that work for the highest bidder and don't take sides.

Orrrrrrrrrrr if they really MUST be government agents, give the Horde an equal organizations so that these two can compete in who outspyes the other.

There are so many ways to do Rogues if you are creative.

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And that's precisely my point—revolutions are hardly things done with clean hands. The sad fact is that you can't separate such groups in reality into cleanly-divided factions of violent thugs and earnest revolutionaries, because the two can quite frequently overlap to such a point that they become indistinguishable. Were the Defias to remain in-character, and Vanessa to do the same, even Anduin's appeals may fall flat. Perhaps some would even welcome the new order, yet refuse to collaborate with it. They would remain an extralegal organization, maintaining the interests of those they perceive as the oppressed, even while exploiting those very same people to fund themselves.

Not to derail the topic again with mention of the unnameable game, but Stormblood was amazing in this regard. Fordola was a spiteful mass murderer, but she believed what she was doing was right. And it is natural that she had no sympathy for his countrymen after they stoned his father for death for the unspeakable crime of trying to provide a stable life for his family.
And yes, she does end up working for "the government", but it is more of a suicide squad kind of arrangement, and her mellowing down happens on screen over several expansions.
Oh and the people that suffered because of her, still fucking hate her. They don't let it slide even after she saves their lives.

[Lahis]

It's literally the same thing for Core races... they get Heritage armour by earning Exalted with their faction, and you earn this only by levelling/doing quests.

Besides, Allied races get one quest for their Heritage armour, which is a turn-in quest... which is exactly what I'm complaining about.

You get sporadic main city rep if you quest in Vanilla zones. Most areas don't give any rep to main cities and expansion zones exclusively give only expansion reputations.

[Varodoc]

You get sporadic main city rep if you quest in Vanilla zones. Most areas don't give any rep to main cities and expansion zones exclusively give only expansion reputations.

This is objectively wrong in the case of Humans, I reached Exalted by simply levelling through the 4 main zones of the kingdom.

And I'd gladly trade having to level up to 50 for a unique Heritage questline, thank you very much. I fail to see how that would be a bad exchange

Especially since Allied races are in dire need of more development.

[Wangming]

Especially since Allied races are in dire need of more development.

Hopefully, the inevitable world revamp would provide us with quest hubs and permanent settlements built and/or occupied by Allied Races. Hell even the Unallied expansion races need more love.
And Night Elves and Trolls because whenever they get development, things just become worst for them.

[Varodoc]

Hopefully, the inevitable world revamp would provide us with quest hubs and permanent settlements built and/or occupied by Allied Races. Hell even the Unallied expansion races need more love.
And Night Elves and Trolls because whenever they get development, things just become worst for them.

I mean, these guys in this thread think that the Scenario unlock questline is all the Allied races need.