The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ferlion]

Serious question: Do people expect writers to just fall on their swords whenever their "audience" doesn't vibe with something? Because having been around for everything since Wrath, there's no actual criticism being leveled that's useful. It's a lot of vague feeling gesturing, like "WoW isn't brutal enough, the Alliance and Horde aren't mad anymore. The Dragons are too nice." There's more examples in this thread alone. Having a complaint isn't a criticism inherently, and especially on MMOC, most criticisms are just gripes. Nitpicking or thematic dissonance at best.

I'm not saying those feelings can't be felt either. People do what they do, but so much of it boils down to making vague gestures to The Past like somehow it was just better overall. There's no discussion about why something worked in Wrath and why it's absent now, or anything like that. It's just "writing bad".

I can give an example of actual criticism, narratively: Alexstraza is the only Aspect to have a real arc. Everything else feels like a conclusion to something that happened off camera. Wrathion's arc is really a conclusion to Cataclysm. Same with Nozdormu. There is no rising action. It's just crescendo and falling action. Alexstraza feels like the only Dragon to really get a whole narrative arc. We had this problem in Shadowlands super hard. All of the protagonists were dealing with trauma that had been set up off camera. That made most of the development feel super rushed. An example of this is Anduin. His arc was clear: rushed into a war right after his dad died, being completely out if his depth, fucking up and feeling responsible for millions of deaths and carrying that into getting possessed by the Jailer. That's rushed right to the end after we beat him in the raid in the same patch. There's no room to explore the why. And immediately after the Jailer dies he vanishes to stew in his own trauma. We don't get to explore this journey with him. He'll show back up having dealt with it and we'll just be told that. And this example has existed in WoW for decades. Legion, WoD. It's pervasive.

I honestly don't really understand people expecting these writers to acknowledge this because their forbearers didn't. They were super happy to keep doing it. The thing this team does do right is making the game less gross and feel like it came from the brains of 15 yr old boys. DF isn't perfect by any means, it suffers from problem I just outlined earlier. But I don't think these expectations from "lore guys" make any sense either.

As for this..

This isn't an accurate perspective.

People need to realize that "WoW isn't brutal enough, the Alliance and Horde aren't mad anymore. The Dragons are too nice." IS valid feedback. It's not just valid feedback, it's far more valid feedback than nitty gritty stuff like "Alexstraza is the only Aspect to have a real arc."

And it's more valuable because people who maybe aren't media savy enough to break down the individual issues, and point out key character flaws. Specific points are important. But the problem is if all you use is that, if all you care about is that, you begin to develop towards a bias.

And no. This isn't an opinion. It's a flatout statement of fact. And if you disagree with it, you are flat out, 100% wrong.

And I'm not saying that to be mean or aggressive. I mean literal classes on communication are taught about this risk, with warnings about how "people not saying things in specific ways tends to get people to dismiss them and this is a bad thing"

Feedback is feedback. Their inability to parse it is a them problem. The vibe being off, even if it can't be articulated by most people, is extremely important.

[Sentynel]

Is the Grotto Netherwing customization coming in 10.2?

Yes. /10char

[jeezusisacasual]

Serious question: Do people expect writers to just fall on their swords whenever their "audience" doesn't vibe with something? Because having been around for everything since Wrath, there's no actual criticism being leveled that's useful. It's a lot of vague feeling gesturing, like "WoW isn't brutal enough, the Alliance and Horde aren't mad anymore. The Dragons are too nice." There's more examples in this thread alone. Having a complaint isn't a criticism inherently, and especially on MMOC, most criticisms are just gripes. Nitpicking or thematic dissonance at best.

I'm not saying those feelings can't be felt either. People do what they do, but so much of it boils down to making vague gestures to The Past like somehow it was just better overall. There's no discussion about why something worked in Wrath and why it's absent now, or anything like that. It's just "writing bad".

I can give an example of actual criticism, narratively: Alexstraza is the only Aspect to have a real arc. Everything else feels like a conclusion to something that happened off camera. Wrathion's arc is really a conclusion to Cataclysm. Same with Nozdormu. There is no rising action. It's just crescendo and falling action. Alexstraza feels like the only Dragon to really get a whole narrative arc. We had this problem in Shadowlands super hard. All of the protagonists were dealing with trauma that had been set up off camera. That made most of the development feel super rushed. An example of this is Anduin. His arc was clear: rushed into a war right after his dad died, being completely out if his depth, fucking up and feeling responsible for millions of deaths and carrying that into getting possessed by the Jailer. That's rushed right to the end after we beat him in the raid in the same patch. There's no room to explore the why. And immediately after the Jailer dies he vanishes to stew in his own trauma. We don't get to explore this journey with him. He'll show back up having dealt with it and we'll just be told that. And this example has existed in WoW for decades. Legion, WoD. It's pervasive.

I honestly don't really understand people expecting these writers to acknowledge this because their forbearers didn't. They were super happy to keep doing it. The thing this team does do right is making the game less gross and feel like it came from the brains of 15 yr old boys. DF isn't perfect by any means, it suffers from problem I just outlined earlier. But I don't think these expectations from "lore guys" make any sense either.

You are missing that the a large number of the wow playerbase are fans of 4chan and i kind of agree with them, i want alot more brutality and a more visceral might makes right story instead of the whole lets be nice and unite people. I still contend that i would have followed Arthas above all else in the WoW universe or atleast more then any of the current crop of " heroes ".

[huth]

The dragon is probably the chinese new year (wood dragon).

But it looks massive compared with current noodle dragon (look at the elf on its back) o_O


The armored owlbear is probably the encrypted mount B you talked about (the one not sharing resources with the pet).

The more interesting part is that it's standing. That suggests it's based on the Dragonriding one, not on the MoP serpents or is an entirely seperate animation set.

[seainma]

Hello, MMO-C! I have come with positive vibes, excitement, speculation, and all the things!

We need more of this!

[SilverLion]

As for this..

This isn't an accurate perspective.

People need to realize that "WoW isn't brutal enough, the Alliance and Horde aren't mad anymore. The Dragons are too nice." IS valid feedback. It's not just valid feedback, it's far more valid feedback than nitty gritty stuff like "Alexstraza is the only Aspect to have a real arc."

And it's more valuable because people who maybe aren't media savy enough to break down the individual issues, and point out key character flaws. Specific points are important. But the problem is if all you use is that, if all you care about is that, you begin to develop towards a bias.

And no. This isn't an opinion. It's a flatout statement of fact. And if you disagree with it, you are flat out, 100% wrong.

And I'm not saying that to be mean or aggressive. I mean literal classes on communication are taught about this risk, with warnings about how "people not saying things in specific ways tends to get people to dismiss them and this is a bad thing"

Feedback is feedback. Their inability to parse it is a them problem. The vibe being off, even if it can't be articulated by most people, is extremely important.

What you're referring to as a fact doesn't apply here. I'm well aware of the classes. I've taken them. The "vibe check" approach only works when stuff is unified. Everything I outlined is unified. There is no one way to fix any of it because it's too vague to do anything more than just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks.

What you're trying to defend really only applies in sceneries where you're just trying to read the room to see if something lands. See: The Diablo Immortal announcement. That's where specific feedback doesn't matter because the vibe is unified and very very easy to pinpoint and change.

What you get is creative writing by democracy and that doesn't work at all. I'm not denying you shouldn't "read the room" but in WoW's case? The room is so vast and so different you're not going to get anything useful.


I'm also not even touching the 4chan thing. That would be an utter derailment.

[Nathanyel]

They might not have finalized the textures yet.

That gives me a thought, hope this dragon goes through the seasons like the ancient pet & mount.

[Gurahk]

It's not that I want alliance and horde to fight, I'm just kind of over the seemingly sappy characters and cutscenes in the story, it feels like ever since BfA it's been more of a character focused story, but the characters in question are personally feeling pretty bland (see the Horde council) and every other cutscene is about overcoming some sort of trauma. This is not including some specific stories that I dislike, like the Maruuk.
Seeing for example the WoD cinematics at launch and comparing them to Dragonflight already makes it extremely clear to me, you have one-liners and then action, while with Dragonflight a cutscene can just be entirely characters talking.
I know it's very subjective, and I know people like the direction, but it doesn't really excite me like it used to. I don't find the story as of now interesting, like I did back in for example Legion.

[Dragon ANX]

I was thinking about that 1.15 build.

I always thought that Vanilla Plus couldn't happen because I doubted Blizzard would ever risk splitting WoW lore and taking other risks. However, I was reading some Japanese light novels when I saw a post about SAO: Progressive. It occurred to me that a lot of WoW lore has been shown but not deeply explored in the game, with reports, books (in-game and IRL), and more. So, Blizzard could take that approach with Vanilla Plus. They could release patches that delve into this "unexplored" lore with manageable risk.

Context below:

About SAO and SAO: Progressive
SAO is a novel about a VR MMORPG game that goes wrong, putting people's lives at risk. Throughout the plot, we follow a main character who levels up and challenges a tower dungeon with different levels. However, the novel skips some of the progression through the levels. This is where SAO: Progressive comes in. The novel is an extension of the original, where the author writes in detail about what happens on every level.

[Holdodlig]

Wowhead's covered the Narrative interview.

I'm still in shock with their blatant inability to take criticism, instead defending things that a lot of people seem to have issue with. The first section alone is baffling. "Nozdormu had a dream about clouds on fire, Alexstrasza thought Fyrakk, figured out Fyrakk would logically attack the world tree", which I'm hardly paraphrasing. That is the explaination for how we knew Fyrakk would go after Amirdrassil, without even knowing how he knows about Amirdrassil. What a sad explaination.

I agree with you especially on the humor side of the narration. That's something that's really killing the narration right now and I think they lack the understanding of how things should be balanced.

I guess we'll just have another bad storyline for the next expansion then.

[SilverLion]

It's not that I want alliance and horde to fight, I'm just kind of over the seemingly sappy characters and cutscenes in the story, it feels like ever since BfA it's been more of a character focused story, but the characters in question are personally feeling pretty bland (see the Horde council) and every other cutscene is about overcoming some sort of trauma. This is not including some specific stories that I dislike, like the Maruuk.
Seeing for example the WoD cinematics at launch and comparing them to Dragonflight already makes it extremely clear to me, you have one-liners and then action, while with Dragonflight a cutscene can just be entirely characters talking.
I know it's very subjective, and I know people like the direction, but it doesn't really excite me like it used to. I don't find the story as of now interesting, like I did back in for example Legion.

I just want to point this out as a beautiful and rare example exactly why being specific is useful. I don't necessarily feel the same way, but as a writer I could absolutely see this point of view and maybe figure out how to work with it. It gives examples, and it's also just a personal preference. Personal preference absolutely has its place when it comes to the creative process and some people both do better and worse when trying to write things out of their comfort zone. For example Varian Wrynn's face turn in MoP was not great.

More to your point, I to this day love the BFA cinematic. I love the tone, i love the cinematography, the whole bit. I'm not sure I'd want it to continue but it's something that in my heart of hearts really enjoym

[Ferlion]

What you're referring to as a fact doesn't apply here. I'm well aware of the classes. I've taken them. The "vibe check" approach only works when stuff is unified. Everything I outlined is unified. There is no one way to fix any of it because it's too vague to do anything more than just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks.

What you're trying to defend really only applies in sceneries where you're just trying to read the room to see if something lands. See: The Diablo Immortal announcement. That's where specific feedback doesn't matter because the vibe is unified and very very easy to pinpoint and change.

What you get is creative writing by democracy and that doesn't work at all. I'm not denying you shouldn't "read the room" but in WoW's case? The room is so vast and so different you're not going to get anything useful.


I'm also not even touching the 4chan thing. That would be an utter derailment.

I mean, "WoW is softer than it used to be, we miss the factions and don't like them being buddy buddy, dragons feel too nice" is all pretty specific stuff though. Not, mind, that I agree with that on it's face, but hey.

It's not pinpointed to exact details and reasons, sure. But there is a very clear and very specific complaint that is present throughout a lot of the community. It is all stuff saying "This current direction is not being felt or working". That does not, mind, tell Blizzard how to "fix" the problem. But it does tell them "There is a problem. We need to look into it".

[seainma]

I honestly also feel like they've arrived at a point where WoW has two different demographics. Those who want this retail hype train to keep going and see where it takes us (plus addicted to their collections, friend groups, etc), and those who just want traditional Warcraft content.

Like Ion said in that interview: woopsie, we kinda used all the old content and now we're stuck in a corner (paraphrasing).

In other words, it's now worth splitting up the playerbase, because they can better cater to each segment by doing so. The alternative is alienating one of them, and losing a bunch of subs once Classic hype subsides.

Let there be "World of Warcraft" for those who just want orcs and human smashing skulls in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, and "World of Warcraft: Whatever's Next" for those who want to keep moving towards cosmic lore and what not.

Sounds like a lot of work to create a separate lore just for a classic +. I mean the main draw of classic is its gameplay. Were there really a lot of people playing classic so they can enjoy the lore?

I suspect if they do a classic + lore is going to be very low on the priority list.

[Woke it Up]

I mean, "WoW is softer than it used to be, we miss the factions and don't like them being buddy buddy, dragons feel too nice" is all pretty specific stuff though.

It's not pinpointed to exact details and reasons, sure. But there is a very clear and very specific complaint that is present throughout a lot of the community.

This was the entire point of this expansion though, rebuilding the dragon flights, and moving past the legacies that hung over them. It was more important for some (blue / black). And now makes way for whatever comes from the next few weeks time.

[SilverLion]

I mean, "WoW is softer than it used to be, we miss the factions and don't like them being buddy buddy, dragons feel too nice" is all pretty specific stuff though.

It's not pinpointed to exact details and reasons, sure. But there is a very clear and very specific complaint that is present throughout a lot of the community. It is all stuff saying "This current direction is not being felt or working". That does not, mind, tell Blizzard how to "fix" the problem. But it does tell them "There is a problem. We need to look into it".

A lot? No. Some? Sure. Hence the issue. And I don't really agree that it's specific. It's a vibe, and I'll agree people feel it. But it's so vague there's very little that can actually be acted on that isn't "let's just do BFA over". Specifics can at least make it so you can encorporate elements, pieces that do work and leave out pieces that don't.

[huth]

I mean, "WoW is softer than it used to be, we miss the factions and don't like them being buddy buddy, dragons feel too nice" is all pretty specific stuff though.

It's not pinpointed to exact details and reasons, sure. But there is a very clear and very specific complaint that is present throughout a lot of the community. It is all stuff saying "This current direction is not being felt or working". That does not, mind, tell Blizzard how to "fix" the problem. But it does tell them "There is a problem. We need to look into it".

The problem is that the community is not at all united in regards to what is the right direction. I don't miss the factions at all and hope they stay away from them, for one.

And i think that "WoW is softer" is quite a bit a case of selective perception and confirmation bias. There were some pretty drastic events in DF that don't really get the attention they should. Similarly, dragons are "too nice" compared to a very babaric view of them that doesn't really make much sense to begin with. The complaint isn't that they don't fit established dragons in WoW. It's that they don't fit what the person thinks dragons should be in general, regardless of whether that'd make sense in context.

[Ferlion]

This was the entire point of this expansion though, rebuilding the dragon flights, and moving past the legacies that hung over them. It was more important for some (blue / black). And now makes way for whatever comes from the next few weeks time.

That is why I edited in I dont exactly agree with it. They were upfront with us that Dragonflight would be different. Would be a softer experience. We knew all this going in that this would be a different experience.

[Trad skeleton]

From that old "Eclipse" "leak":



An unknown moon loa matches with Q'onzu.
Q'onzu identifies as the loa of change.
Khonsu is the Egyptian god of the moon, and the name translates as "traveler".

Could be coincidence, but one heck of one.

I mentioned this a little earlier in the thread once wowhead posted the Q'onzu quest line. I'm not sure how long the Q'onzu quest line has been on the PTR. If it was the whole cycle, maybe that person was really clever and spun it together before it was more widely known.

It's a cool idea to think about, though, either way. He returned to the dream and started going by loa instead of Wild God. Maybe he found Trolls / some form of Trolls / Troll ancestor race elsewhere and was dubbed as loa and it's a hint, like the leak suggests with the Troll / Elf common ancestor.

[milkmustache]

Similarly, dragons are "too nice" compared to a very babaric view of them that doesn't really make much sense to begin with. The complaint isn't that they don't fit established dragons in WoW. It's that they don't fit what the person thinks dragons should be in general, regardless of whether that'd make sense in context.

I think you're right in saying that the dragons have a completely different context in which they've been shown in universe compared to a typical view on dragons. I think one of the bigger issues regarding the dragons is that we don't really get to see them be anything other than faction leader character in cutscenes. Nozdormu is obviously the big one there.

Like I had said previously, I think the absolute biggest issue that the current writing team seems to have a problem with is telling rather than showing.

[Ferlion]

The problem is that the community is not at all united in regards to what is the right direction. I don't miss the factions at all and hope they stay away from them, for one.

And i think that "WoW is softer" is quite a bit a case of selective perception and confirmation bias. There were some pretty drastic events in DF that don't really get the attention they should. Similarly, dragons are "too nice" compared to a very babaric view of them that doesn't really make much sense to begin with. The complaint isn't that they don't fit established dragons in WoW. It's that they don't fit what the person thinks dragons should be in general, regardless of whether that'd make sense in context.

But this is true for specific feedback as well. Not everyone is going to agree with it. It doesn't make it any less valuable.