The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[ImTheMizAwesome]

They should make "race" campaigns, something like class order hall campaigns, but based on races.

Besides the story there would be of course cosmetics(armor, weapons etc) unlocking, maybe based on important lore characters for that races.

Undead could have something abour lordaeron and NE something about rebuilding their home too, taking back refugees from SW, orc could easily go from the end of orc heritage questline and focus on that.

They could include allied races under OG races questlines, because with allied races it would be probably too much work to create all of them.

BE leader got married with NB leader, so they could easily fit these two together for example.

[Black Rider]

I mean if you compare the actual size of the zones we are getting now compared to the classic/cata ones they should be able to easily redo atleast those if not Tbc/wrath zones.

Like look at just the span you could easily fit elwynn forest west fall dusk wood and likely red ridge in it if not more.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...ze_comparison/

Remake takes more time I think.
You need to keep the old spirit

[Wangming]

People using "Oh, there hasn't been any conflicts in the timeskip between Shadowlands and DF!" as if it means anything or Blizzard even thought more than two seconds about that timeskip. Nothing at all, outside of a random wedding, happened during the timeskip.

Lol, you still got all of the Night Elf Refugees sitting in Stormwind.

Simply put, Blizz is not interested in EK at the moment. Nor Turalyion's rule.

- Stuff I still don't agree with

We could potentially go on, but at this point it would just be for argument's sake. For me the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Turalyon could be great, or could be catastrophic. We simply don't know, because the story focuses on Dragons go brr, half an ocean away. It is much easier to debate the capabilities of leaders in a game like FFXIV, where economic policies and changes in leadership or even form of government, are more fleshed out. Let us leave it at that.

Remake takes more time I think.

While true, we had models and assets being slowly updated over many expansion. And I don't think they are blind to the necessity of a rework. Or the overwhelming fan request for one. I mean after the double fiasco of BfA and Shadowlands I think "the fans want it" is a good enough reason to do it. They also probably know at least the general theme of 12.0 if not more.

[micwini]

Never.

If they do put in dragonriding in the old world, they'll just leave things as-is and deal with it. You don't seem to realize how ridiculously expensive it is to remake an entire map.

The old meme of "at the cost of a raid tier" comes to mind, though in reality it'd likely cost MORE than one tier worth of development resources.

The shortsightedness that always comes along with this argument baffles me. Of course they wouldn't do a world revamp all in one go. That would indeed "cost us a raid tier". Fact is that old assets have been getting updated for quite a while now. Old models, old buildings, you name it and it has been updated. There is actually very few old models still left. We still have some 2004 plant models, but I feel if we do get the emerald dream in 10.2, those will get updated too. They've been updating old assets, some of which have never been used, all the way back since WoD. WoD is going to be 10 years old by the time 11.0 comes around. Just check out Auberdine in new Darkshore for example. Looks very nice, but we had no reason to ever go there. Now why would they put so much effort into something like that. There are also still a lot of updated models that have seen no use so far. The night elf and blood elf ships being the latest examples. A world revamp is inevitable. Just like the case was with the South Sea expansion (BFA), it is a case of when not if. A revamp will happen at some point.

[George Lucas]

I would love a world revamp. Just don't rush it. Split it up into 2 addons. This would also solve the problem of more and more islands popping up and overcrowding the map for a time.

You could easily merge a lot of zones and have the old zones be subzones. That also makes stories feel bigger, when they tie together these bigger zones. Also make everything available to both factions. With elves and furries everywhere and fading restrictions it's no use anymore.. Both factions have completely lost what made them unique. Give spotlight to the races and make the alliance and horde take a backseat.

Eastern Kingdoms Addon:
+Hinterlands/Arathi/Hillsbrad/Alterac
+Gilneas/Silverpine/Tirisfal/Tol Barad
+Plaguelands/Unused space north of them
+Ghostlands/Eversong/Quel'danas
+Wetlands/Loch Modan/Twilight Highlands
+Dun Morogh (there is a lot of unused space)
+Badlands/Burning Steppes/Searing Gorge
+Elwynn/Westfall/Duskwood/Redridge
+Deadwind/Swamp of Sorrows/Blasted Lands
+Stranglethorn

Kalimdor Addon:
+Azuremyst/Bloodmyst/Teldrassil Remains
+Darkshore/Moonglade/Felwood/Ashenvale
+Winterspring/Azshara/Hyjal
+Desolace/Stonetalon/Mulgore
+Barrens/Durotar/Dustfallow
+Feralas/Thousand Needles
+Tanaris/Uldum/Un'goro
+Silithus (Make use of all the space and include the bg island from bfa)
+Maybe Kezan (not just the small chunk from cataclysm)
+Maybe a Tinker class

That are still a lot of zones but not all have to be there at release. 2-3 could easily be patch content.

[Biomega]

A world revamp is worth it.

Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor are the most important continents in the Warcraft franchise and they deserve serious territorial developments after 13+ years of being in stasis after the Cataclysm.

A world revamp will also give Blizzard the opportunity to develop allied races and truly insert them into the old world, like having the Ren'dorei set up a camp in Quel'Thalas for example.

Nobody is arguing that a world revamp wouldn't be MERITED.

That's not the issue. No one is saying "baaah the old world doesn't need remaking it's just fine everything being 10 years out of date with the rest of the game is totally cool!".

The issue how EXPENSIVE it would be, in terms of real, actual development resources. That kind of investment simply wouldn't pay off, because either you would have to massively sacrifice new expansion features for it (like unironically at least an entire raid tier, probably more) or you'd have to attract legions of new/returning players that then purchase/sub to the game. Neither is going to work as things stand now. Ask yourself: would the majority of people REALLY prefer to see the old world redone over seeing a new expansion raid, or a new Timeless Isle-style zone, or something comparable to that? Would they? Really?

Blizz tried once with Cata. It was an ambitious project, it was justified by the otherwise intractable technical problems of old-world flying, and it was a gamble that... didn't pay off. Exactly what they feared happened: people went "okay that's cool and all but I have max-level toons already so why do I care about the old world being revamped? why didn't you make some stuff I'll actually PLAY instead?". It wasn't Cataclysms only problem, not by a long shot, but it was undeniably a contributing factor. And it was EXPENSIVE.

They're never going to make that mistake again.

[Biomega]

The shortsightedness that always comes along with this argument baffles me. Of course they wouldn't do a world revamp all in one go. That would indeed "cost us a raid tier". Fact is that old assets have been getting updated for quite a while now. Old models, old buildings, you name it and it has been updated. There is actually very few old models still left. We still have some 2004 plant models, but I feel if we do get the emerald dream in 10.2, those will get updated too. They've been updating old assets, some of which have never been used, all the way back since WoD. WoD is going to be 10 years old by the time 11.0 comes around. Just check out Auberdine in new Darkshore for example. Looks very nice, but we had no reason to ever go there. Now why would they put so much effort into something like that. There are also still a lot of updated models that have seen no use so far. The night elf and blood elf ships being the latest examples. A world revamp is inevitable. Just like the case was with the South Sea expansion (BFA), it is a case of when not if. A revamp will happen at some point.

There's a big difference between 'let's add some new models' and 'let's remake entire maps'. Those are on completely different levels of effort, difficulty, expense, and - most importantly - cohesion. You can't just have some zones revamped, and other zones being old - not only because that'd be jarring visually, but also for technical reasons, such as terrain boundaries etc. You'd have to either keep the base map the same (in which case are you really revamping?) or you'd have to change it once to fit with bordering old maps and then again each time one of those old maps are updated, which would further balloon the cost of the endeavor.

There's a reason they did it all in one swoop with Cataclysm - it's actually easier than redoing zones one by one over time.

Also: you'll have to spend development resources either way. Spending $500,000 now and $500,000 a year from now doesn't change the fact that you've spent $1,000,000 and that money needs to come from somewhere. You're not thinking in terms of a business. The issue isn't "they can't find the cash in their bank accounts". The issue is "if I spend X money I need to get at least X+Y money back or I'm being a bad business" - which means the money either needs to come out of existing budgets that are recouped by the usual expansion stuff, or it needs to come from newly added revenue. And the problem is that neither of those equations would be likely to work out, currently. (and that's not even talking about the fact that in all likelihood doing it in phases over time is actually more expensive, for various technical and logistical reasons)

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It literally goes back 13 years. The technologies, the necessary resources and the way to do it would be totally different. It doesn't make sense to take a ten-year-old example and say "no, they won't do it again!". History is an eternal beginning. A revamp is necessary and will happen, that's for sure.

And the business mechanics are different, too. WoW has a lot less players. But it's not like developers now make a lot less money. You don't just get to say "technology!" as if that suddenly means things are free, especially the biggest part of it which is work hours. Has technology progressed? Yes. Does it mean it would be cheaper now than it was 13 years ago? Possibly. Does it mean that this suddenly makes the business math work out? Unlikely.

[Makorus]

Having half a world revamp would be the worst thing ever. Either you do the whole thing, or you dont do it at all.

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But that again would literally be a big selling point, it would make old people come back as well as be more welcoming to new ones. In any case, not taking advantage of the 20 years to do a revamp would be a big mistake. I don't see any other world that wouldn't be economically viable.

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Not to mention that the "it would cost a raid" argument is the case. Since Legion we have fewer raids with each expansion, which suggests that they free up part of the economy for something else. something big.

We don't really have less raids though.

[Dracullus]

It is. Check for yourself.

Legion had 5 raids (1 mini), BfA had 5 raids (1 mini). Why you write bullshit anyone can check in 1 minute?

[Nymrohd]

OK I decided to finally do the heritage quest for humans and if you start it, you phase out all the ERP in goldshire inn. Why would I ever move a step past that!!!

[Makorus]

It is. Check for yourself.

If we go by raid encounters (which is a better way to measure raids, considering 1-boss raids exist):

Vanilla has 59.
TBC has 51.
Wrath has 49 (15 of those are recycled Naxxramas though, so debatable).
Cata has 27.
MoP has 43.
WoD has 30.
Legion has 40.
BfA has 39.
Shadowlands has 31.

So yeah.

[Nymrohd]

I think the only way a world revamp would work is if they had been working on it for several years now.

[Varodoc]

Ask yourself: would the majority of people REALLY prefer to see the old world redone over seeing a new expansion raid, or a new Timeless Isle-style zone, or something comparable to that? Would they? Really?

Yes, actually, I think that the average player would enjoy seeing how the Classic, beloved zones have developed since the time of the Cataclysm. Zones like Elwynn Forest, the Westfall, and the Barrens are some of the most iconic MMORPG zones ever, they made WoW, so why is that hard for you to believe that the average player would enjoy seeing how these zones have developed after 13 years and counting?

Blizz tried once with Cata.

The problem is that the revamped Old World wasn't important for high level content... what people are saying is that the revamped old world, this time, should serve as the questing experience and end game content for players.

And before you say "but why would a zone with thugs and harvest watchers serve as end game content?" I'm just going to point out that a zone like Stormsong Valley, which is basically a more updated version of Westfall, served as endgame content just fine.

So there's no reason why, for instance, Elwynn+Westfall+Redridge+Duskwood can't be incorporated into a megazone called "Kingdom of Stormwind" (roughly the size of Azure Span), which will then serve as a questing and endgame zone for high level players. Then, by speaking to Zidormi, you can visit the Cataclysm, divided zones.

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We could potentially go on, but at this point it would just be for argument's sake. For me the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Turalyon could be great, or could be catastrophic. We simply don't know, because the story focuses on Dragons go brr, half an ocean away. It is much easier to debate the capabilities of leaders in a game like FFXIV, where economic policies and changes in leadership or even form of government, are more fleshed out. Let us leave it at that.

We also know that Turalyon is very popular with the nobles and the army, this was stated in Dragonflight btw.

[MCMLXXXII]

I could see them doing a revamp in parts, half or a quarter of the continent. They could even stop levenlang temporarily. The first quarter you can get 5 levels, when maxed out you do some end level stuff and then next major patches hits, you can get 5 more levels in the new zones.

[Biomega]

Yes, actually, I think that the average player would enjoy seeing how the Classic, beloved zones have developed since the time of the Cataclysm. Zones like Elwynn Forest, the Westfall, and the Barrens are some of the most iconic MMORPG zones ever, they made WoW, so why is that hard for you to believe that the average player would enjoy seeing how these zones have developed after 13 years and counting?

That wasn't the question.

Everyone wants to see this.

The question is are they willing to SACRIFICE to see it.

[Luck4]

I think a Revamp of the Old World is what the game needs.

I think a Revamp is needed to reboot the franchise in one way or another to hold back the appeal of "WoW 2". WoW lore has become stagnant and outlandish in recent expansions, but I can't see which new groundbreaking gameplay features would justify "WoW 2", so the reason behind this desire is solely based on the OG stuff, as "WoW 2" would need to go back to OG races lore/zones as Vanilla/Classic did.

Regardless, I've never seen so many people talking about "WoW 2"seriously before, even some content creators and streamers joined this crowd, and I think a Revamp can alleviate this desire (myself included).

Anyway, I'm sure we'll understand in the next expansion why Blizzard has been remaking so many legacy models in HD, and we'll finally solve this puzzle.

PS: I know some people want WoW 2 because of the FOMO stuff they missed in the past 19 years, but it's also why this game retained so many players, and that's why I didn't mention it, as it's also a "Con" for people invested in WoW.

[Gurahk]

If we go by raid encounters (which is a better way to measure raids, considering 1-boss raids exist):

Vanilla has 59.
TBC has 51.
Wrath has 49 (15 of those are recycled Naxxramas though, so debatable).
Cata has 27.
MoP has 43.
WoD has 30.
Legion has 40.
BfA has 39.
Shadowlands has 31.

So yeah.

Vanilla and TBC bosses are simplistic compared to modern bosses. Wrath has 34 bosses as you said.
From this we can see that the amount of bosses per expac are usually in the 30-40 range.
Not sure what the first guy was smoking, unless he for some reason prefers vanilla and TBC's bosses

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Blizzard has the techniques to make zones more efficiently than they were a decade ago. For Dragonflight, Blizzard's environment artists have created a new technique where rather than hand sculpting by hand the entirety of a continent's geometry in WoWedit, they instead have created modular pieces of terrain that they can quickly copy paste together.






I don't think biomes/zone aesthetics would need to be consolidated as @George Lucas posited. Look at the Waking Shores, a zone which has two biomes/tilesets. If you overlay the Waking Shores onto Kalimdor, it covers the same area as Ashenvale and Winterspring, which are also two biomes/tilesets.




The density of different biomes or zone aesthetics has not changed, the only difference being the quantity of zones/size of the continents that Blizzard releases with every expansion every two years. Kalimdor is about 1/3rd larger than the Dragon Isles. Perhaps if Blizzard hired a few more environment artists, they could release a remade Kalimdor. Though, IMO, I would rather go visit brand new lands with new stuff like Pandaria with the Pandaren and Mogu and Mantid and Saurok, or the Shadowlands, rather than revisit boring old lands. I've already seen Orcs and Quillboar and Centaurs and treants too many times.

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Though another issue with an old world revamp (assuming the size was the same) would be how immersion breaking it would be to hop on your dragonriding mount and soar from one capital city to another in 20 seconds. It would totally kill any pretense of you living on a massive continent. The continent's size would have to be multiplied by 10x just to get us back to the current time it takes to fly from one city to another with old flying mounts, and even then it still feels ridiculous. The map would have to be 50x to 100x larger to make flying between cities at 800% speed feel like you might vaguely be flying across a continent to different kingdoms and countries. Maybe adding an hourly day/night cycle like in GW2 or FFXIV would help sell that sense of travelling across a continent too, rather than visiting everywhere in a single afternoon.

[ChairmanKaga]

t I can't see which new groundbreaking gameplay features would justify "WoW 2"

The only people I see clamoring for a WoW2 also want it dumped into some other modern game engine to get some bland grey/brown hyper realism slapped on it.

[Shadowferal]

For me, it ain't about gameplay, it's about rewriting the lore.
...other things as widening the scope of the earlier class structure, and racial abilities are typically what I'm looking at when I'm not looking at the overall storyline as well as stories involved in-zone...