The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Worldshaper]

I was thinking about that 1.15 build.

I always thought that Vanilla Plus couldn't happen because I doubted Blizzard would ever risk splitting WoW lore and taking other risks. However, I was reading some Japanese light novels when I saw a post about SAO: Progressive. It occurred to me that a lot of WoW lore has been shown but not deeply explored in the game, with reports, books (in-game and IRL), and more. So, Blizzard could take that approach with Vanilla Plus. They could release patches that delve into this "unexplored" lore with manageable risk.

Context below:

About SAO and SAO: Progressive
SAO is a novel about a VR MMORPG game that goes wrong, putting people's lives at risk. Throughout the plot, we follow a main character who levels up and challenges a tower dungeon with different levels. However, the novel skips some of the progression through the levels. This is where SAO: Progressive comes in. The novel is an extension of the original, where the author writes in detail about what happens on every level.

I honestly also feel like they've arrived at a point where WoW has two different demographics. Those who want this retail hype train to keep going and see where it takes us (plus addicted to their collections, friend groups, etc), and those who just want traditional Warcraft content.

Like Ion said in that interview: woopsie, we kinda used all the old content and now we're stuck in a corner (paraphrasing).

In other words, it's now worth splitting up the playerbase, because they can better cater to each segment by doing so. The alternative is alienating one of them, and losing a bunch of subs once Classic hype subsides.

Let there be "World of Warcraft" for those who just want orcs and human smashing skulls in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, and "World of Warcraft: Whatever's Next" for those who want to keep moving towards cosmic lore and what not.

[Ferlion]

What you're referring to as a fact doesn't apply here. I'm well aware of the classes. I've taken them. The "vibe check" approach only works when stuff is unified. Everything I outlined is unified. There is no one way to fix any of it because it's too vague to do anything more than just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks.

What you're trying to defend really only applies in sceneries where you're just trying to read the room to see if something lands. See: The Diablo Immortal announcement. That's where specific feedback doesn't matter because the vibe is unified and very very easy to pinpoint and change.

What you get is creative writing by democracy and that doesn't work at all. I'm not denying you shouldn't "read the room" but in WoW's case? The room is so vast and so different you're not going to get anything useful.


I'm also not even touching the 4chan thing. That would be an utter derailment.

I mean, "WoW is softer than it used to be, we miss the factions and don't like them being buddy buddy, dragons feel too nice" is all pretty specific stuff though. Not, mind, that I agree with that on it's face, but hey.

It's not pinpointed to exact details and reasons, sure. But there is a very clear and very specific complaint that is present throughout a lot of the community. It is all stuff saying "This current direction is not being felt or working". That does not, mind, tell Blizzard how to "fix" the problem. But it does tell them "There is a problem. We need to look into it".

[seainma]

I honestly also feel like they've arrived at a point where WoW has two different demographics. Those who want this retail hype train to keep going and see where it takes us (plus addicted to their collections, friend groups, etc), and those who just want traditional Warcraft content.

Like Ion said in that interview: woopsie, we kinda used all the old content and now we're stuck in a corner (paraphrasing).

In other words, it's now worth splitting up the playerbase, because they can better cater to each segment by doing so. The alternative is alienating one of them, and losing a bunch of subs once Classic hype subsides.

Let there be "World of Warcraft" for those who just want orcs and human smashing skulls in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, and "World of Warcraft: Whatever's Next" for those who want to keep moving towards cosmic lore and what not.

Sounds like a lot of work to create a separate lore just for a classic +. I mean the main draw of classic is its gameplay. Were there really a lot of people playing classic so they can enjoy the lore?

I suspect if they do a classic + lore is going to be very low on the priority list.

[Woke it Up]

I mean, "WoW is softer than it used to be, we miss the factions and don't like them being buddy buddy, dragons feel too nice" is all pretty specific stuff though.

It's not pinpointed to exact details and reasons, sure. But there is a very clear and very specific complaint that is present throughout a lot of the community.

This was the entire point of this expansion though, rebuilding the dragon flights, and moving past the legacies that hung over them. It was more important for some (blue / black). And now makes way for whatever comes from the next few weeks time.

[SilverLion]

I mean, "WoW is softer than it used to be, we miss the factions and don't like them being buddy buddy, dragons feel too nice" is all pretty specific stuff though.

It's not pinpointed to exact details and reasons, sure. But there is a very clear and very specific complaint that is present throughout a lot of the community. It is all stuff saying "This current direction is not being felt or working". That does not, mind, tell Blizzard how to "fix" the problem. But it does tell them "There is a problem. We need to look into it".

A lot? No. Some? Sure. Hence the issue. And I don't really agree that it's specific. It's a vibe, and I'll agree people feel it. But it's so vague there's very little that can actually be acted on that isn't "let's just do BFA over". Specifics can at least make it so you can encorporate elements, pieces that do work and leave out pieces that don't.

[huth]

I mean, "WoW is softer than it used to be, we miss the factions and don't like them being buddy buddy, dragons feel too nice" is all pretty specific stuff though.

It's not pinpointed to exact details and reasons, sure. But there is a very clear and very specific complaint that is present throughout a lot of the community. It is all stuff saying "This current direction is not being felt or working". That does not, mind, tell Blizzard how to "fix" the problem. But it does tell them "There is a problem. We need to look into it".

The problem is that the community is not at all united in regards to what is the right direction. I don't miss the factions at all and hope they stay away from them, for one.

And i think that "WoW is softer" is quite a bit a case of selective perception and confirmation bias. There were some pretty drastic events in DF that don't really get the attention they should. Similarly, dragons are "too nice" compared to a very babaric view of them that doesn't really make much sense to begin with. The complaint isn't that they don't fit established dragons in WoW. It's that they don't fit what the person thinks dragons should be in general, regardless of whether that'd make sense in context.

[Ferlion]

This was the entire point of this expansion though, rebuilding the dragon flights, and moving past the legacies that hung over them. It was more important for some (blue / black). And now makes way for whatever comes from the next few weeks time.

That is why I edited in I dont exactly agree with it. They were upfront with us that Dragonflight would be different. Would be a softer experience. We knew all this going in that this would be a different experience.

[Worldshaper]

Sounds like a lot of work to create a separate lore just for a classic +. I mean the main draw of classic is its gameplay. Were there really a lot of people playing classic so they can enjoy the lore?

I suspect if they do a classic + lore is going to be very low on the priority list.

Oh, I don't think lore is important at all for Classic+. In fact, rather the opposite. Part of the allure is that you remove a bunch of lore. Trim away that extra fat that accrued over the years, with retcons, cosmic shenanigans, characters dying left and right, and countless writers joining the team and seeking to leave their mark.

I just want the basics.

Grr, frozen lich in the north is bad.
Go help guardsman find his lunch.

But in HD, and with the potential for more of the same.

[Trad skeleton]

From that old "Eclipse" "leak":



An unknown moon loa matches with Q'onzu.
Q'onzu identifies as the loa of change.
Khonsu is the Egyptian god of the moon, and the name translates as "traveler".

Could be coincidence, but one heck of one.

I mentioned this a little earlier in the thread once wowhead posted the Q'onzu quest line. I'm not sure how long the Q'onzu quest line has been on the PTR. If it was the whole cycle, maybe that person was really clever and spun it together before it was more widely known.

It's a cool idea to think about, though, either way. He returned to the dream and started going by loa instead of Wild God. Maybe he found Trolls / some form of Trolls / Troll ancestor race elsewhere and was dubbed as loa and it's a hint, like the leak suggests with the Troll / Elf common ancestor.

[milkmustache]

Similarly, dragons are "too nice" compared to a very babaric view of them that doesn't really make much sense to begin with. The complaint isn't that they don't fit established dragons in WoW. It's that they don't fit what the person thinks dragons should be in general, regardless of whether that'd make sense in context.

I think you're right in saying that the dragons have a completely different context in which they've been shown in universe compared to a typical view on dragons. I think one of the bigger issues regarding the dragons is that we don't really get to see them be anything other than faction leader character in cutscenes. Nozdormu is obviously the big one there.

Like I had said previously, I think the absolute biggest issue that the current writing team seems to have a problem with is telling rather than showing.

[Ferlion]

The problem is that the community is not at all united in regards to what is the right direction. I don't miss the factions at all and hope they stay away from them, for one.

And i think that "WoW is softer" is quite a bit a case of selective perception and confirmation bias. There were some pretty drastic events in DF that don't really get the attention they should. Similarly, dragons are "too nice" compared to a very babaric view of them that doesn't really make much sense to begin with. The complaint isn't that they don't fit established dragons in WoW. It's that they don't fit what the person thinks dragons should be in general, regardless of whether that'd make sense in context.

But this is true for specific feedback as well. Not everyone is going to agree with it. It doesn't make it any less valuable.

[Dragon ANX]

For me, Dragonfight lore is good, but that's about it. There have been no cool and exciting moments and it has been this way since SL, to be honest (SL lore was garbage). I think every good lore has to have some 'touching and soft' moments, but DF has too much of it and basically no 'BRUUUUUUHHHH LET'S GOOOO' moment, which leads to a boring and lethargic feeling.
That is how i and most of my friends are feeling like.

[Catastrophy349]

Let's get this conversation back on track. Where does the story go from here (can be 10.2, 10.2+, or 11.0/11.0+)?

[Merryck]

For me, Dragonfight lore is good, but that's about it. There have been no cool and exciting moments and it has been this way since SL, to be honest (SL lore was garbage). I think every good lore has to have some 'touching and soft' moments, but DF has too much of it and basically no 'BRUUUUUUHHHH LET'S GOOOO' moment, which leads to a boring and lethargic feeling.
That is how i and most of my friends are feeling like.

the snoozer

[Samin]

I mentioned this a little earlier in the thread once wowhead posted the Q'onzu quest line. I'm not sure how long the Q'onzu quest line has been on the PTR. If it was the whole cycle, maybe that person was really clever and spun it together before it was more widely known.

It's a cool idea to think about, though, either way. He returned to the dream and started going by loa instead of Wild God. Maybe he found Trolls / some form of Trolls / Troll ancestor race elsewhere and was dubbed as loa and it's a hint, like the leak suggests with the Troll / Elf common ancestor.

I don't know the leaker also said the dungeon is called "Freezepeak", which is I assume where those freeze peach trees grow. I know Blizzard likes their puns and pop culture references, but I don't think that's it.

[milkmustache]

Let's get this conversation back on track. Where does the story go from here (can be 10.2, 10.2+, or 11.0/11.0+)?

They keep using the term "turning point" in recent interviews, which I'm not sure what the is referring to. Turning point meaning we defeat Fyrakk and the battle against the Primalists (not Incarnates) is won? Or turning point in meaning that there's a big twist at the end of the raid and there's more danger in store for us than there is victory?

[GhostFish]

I mentioned this a little earlier in the thread once wowhead posted the Q'onzu quest line. I'm not sure how long the Q'onzu quest line has been on the PTR. If it was the whole cycle, maybe that person was really clever and spun it together before it was more widely known.

It's a cool idea to think about, though, either way. He returned to the dream and started going by loa instead of Wild God. Maybe he found Trolls / some form of Trolls / Troll ancestor race elsewhere and was dubbed as loa and it's a hint, like the leak suggests with the Troll / Elf common ancestor.

I don't think anything about Q'onzu was present on the PTR back in July, but I could be wrong.

There are other things that Wowhead has dug up that might be relevant, like the "Sentinel of the New Moon".

There's a theory that Q'onzu could be related to Lo'sho - the second moon. A secondary moon god for a secondary moon.
Q'onzu might identify as a loa simply because they are ancient enough that their worshippers were trolls. Q'onzu also may have dug out of the Dream. If they dug out, maybe they came out in Avaloren.

[Sondrelk]

I honestly also feel like they've arrived at a point where WoW has two different demographics. Those who want this retail hype train to keep going and see where it takes us (plus addicted to their collections, friend groups, etc), and those who just want traditional Warcraft content.

Like Ion said in that interview: woopsie, we kinda used all the old content and now we're stuck in a corner (paraphrasing).

In other words, it's now worth splitting up the playerbase, because they can better cater to each segment by doing so. The alternative is alienating one of them, and losing a bunch of subs once Classic hype subsides.

Let there be "World of Warcraft" for those who just want orcs and human smashing skulls in Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms, and "World of Warcraft: Whatever's Next" for those who want to keep moving towards cosmic lore and what not.

That's a bit reductive. There are two distinct halves of the playerbase in terms of what they want, but it's hardly two homogenous masses.
One side wants out there rule of cool stuff like K'aresh. The other wants generally more grounded stuff with focus on characters.
The problem is that you cannot simultaneously cater to both unless you go all the way and develop two sets of expansions concurrently.

Currently they are seemingly going to try to replicate Legion which was a nice compromise. You start with a solid foundation of basic stuff, and then slowly escalate until you have the out there stuff by the end.

[Magistrate]

Real life history?

I'm not fully disagreeing with your thoughts here but there is a certain point when the amount of retconning to surface level and then foundational elements becomes so extensive, and then begins to happen so frequently, that it is difficult for me to become attached to any new story elements, or to want to discuss them.

I don't want to necessarily derail this further, but something that really bothers me is how homogenized the schools of magic have become. It seems like any element or force can have some analogue of resurrection.

I really want the next expansion to be a sort of "let's just hold on a moment and figure out what we're doing here narratively because this is just a bunch of cats running in every direction."

[Ferlion]

I don't think anything about Q'onzu was present on the PTR back in July, but I could be wrong.

There are other things that Wowhead has dug up that might be relevant, like the "Sentinel of the New Moon".

There's a theory that Q'onzu could be related to Lo'sho - the second moon. A secondary moon god for a secondary moon.
Q'onzu might identify as a loa simply because they are ancient enough that their worshippers were trolls. Q'onzu also may have dug out of the Dream. If they dug out, maybe they came out in Avaloren.

I kind of assume that it's just a lucky guess.

"Moon Loa" makes it sound like they are really just worshipping Elune, but non-deep Lore folks wouldn't really know the Trolls don't consider Elune a Loa.

- - - Updated - - -

Let's get this conversation back on track. Where does the story go from here (can be 10.2, 10.2+, or 11.0/11.0+)?

I'm leaning more and more towards Amirdrassil starting the events of a World revamp.

And, well. It also poses an interesting moment where we see the Forces of Life get a solid grip on Azeroth in a way that isn't ordered by the Titans. It could have some pretty neat implications. Maybe the world revamp sets us up for the next continent. Maybe something happens when the Tree shifts into Azeroth and rejuvenates the planet, and it clears Titan safeguards. Like, say, storms keeping people out of a certain area.