The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

They need to sell it at BlizzCon first. Sure Metzen will be there and he can sell a broken toaster easily. But I don't wanna hear:
"Why? Don't you guys have ingame lorebooks?"

I think the core of the issue is much broader. That being it's not really a good sign that Blizzard has to make up areas right as they start developing them. Not just individual zones for filler, but greater expansion locations.
They can't slowly build up excitement over the area since what exactly it is changes across the preceding expansion. And players cannot build up a desire to see the area for any real reason besides it potentially being their ideal concept for an expansion.

We don't know anything about Khaz Algar besides there being dwarves. And we don't know anything about Avaloren besides it likely being west of Kalimdor.
Unless you are deeply into that avenue of lore the only excitement that can be gleaned is either the generic hype for new content, or hope it's whatever concept you always wanted to see in WoW, whether that means underground, archipelago, flying islands, or old God adherents.

[NikolaiShade]

The Avaloren rebels happened when Odyn was still prime designate.
The earthen report mentions our own dwarves, so post Curse of Flesh and speaks curiously of Algarians.
And they named their nation after Khaz.

It makes no sense for them to be the heretics Odyn was talking about.

About the algarians, I can't completely understand this paragraph of the book concerning AR

"In the course of their duties, these earthen began to manifest behaviors analogous to those which would one day be apparent in the self-styled dwarves, despite the two groups being separated by vast swaths of time and distance."

So my question is, did the algarians became "dwarves" before other earthens or I'm just not understanding something? Anyway they assumed the dwarven mannerisms on their own without any cultural influence, that's pretty strange

[Makorus]

Pandaria predates WoW as it was already mentioned in WC3. Dragon isles was a potential part of Vanilla. These had years and years of time to grow in widespread understanding. Avarlorn/Khaz Algar are barely 1 year old. These are vastly different time frames. Not only for world building, but also penetrating community consciousness.

Current Dragon Isles has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Dragon Isles from Vanilla. It was an Old God location in Vanilla. It might as well be a completely different zone.

That's my whole point.

Just because you have a name pop-up, that's not world-building. That's name-dropping something you might or might not use in the future.

What we knew about Pandaria before MoP: Pandaren are from there. Pandaren like beer.

What we knew about Dragon Isles before DF: Wrathion is searching for it. Dragons are there (obviously).

If a random NPC from TBC mentioned "Poopenburg" in their aggro dialogue, would that mean that 12.0 could be set in Poopenburg and everyone should be okay with it because it was name-dropped? Likewise, Poopenburg does not necessarily need to have its whole backstory explained in the last ten years ago to be a viable expansion-setting.

[Wangming]

I mean, it worked with the Dragon Isles and Pandaria. It's not like they were a known quantity. We know more about Avaloren than we did about the Dragon isles before DF.

Just because the name itself was mentioned five expansions ago doesn't automatically mean it's world-building.

Panda and Dragon are pretty well-known concepts. You won't get blank stares from those.
Avaloren is a different beast entirely. For us, it sounds like Avalon, but that might not mean anything. And considering the American publisher renamed the first Harry Potter books cause kids would likely "not know what a philosopher is" I wouldn't quite bet on many of them knowing what Avalon is either.

[Raetary]

About the algarians, I can't completely understand this paragraph of the book concerning AR

"In the course of their duties, these earthen began to manifest behaviors analogous to those which would one day be apparent in the self-styled dwarves, despite the two groups being separated by vast swaths of time and distance."

So my question is, did the algarians became "dwarves" before other earthens or I'm just not understanding something? Anyway they assumed the dwarven mannerisms on their own without any cultural influence, that's pretty strange

Maybe Khaz'Goroth just imparted a bit too much of himself into their creation, now everytime earthen evolve into their own sentient, independent races, they just naturally turn into mini-Khaz's.

[Alanar]

No, because Sargeras was never involved in Azeroths ordering.

And Innaria is likely dead, killed by the Avaloren heretics.

Never heard of that name before.

[Nymrohd]

Honestly, the pre-Legion Invasion were some of the best worldbuilding Blizzard has ever implemented into the game.

It did a better job at displaying that the Legion was a threat than anything in the actual expansion.

My version of Legion would have had only a much larger Suramar (add the blue dragon and nightborne areas from Azsuna plus the Ravencrest areas from Val'sharath to the existing zone) and would have taken place in many other visually updated zones. Instead of an Emerald Dream raid tier we would have had a couple of smaller raids that would be Capitals being besieged by the Legion. We had the Legion and then N'zoth's forces then both times the game failed to actually show the world being in danger which is a massive shame.

[Raetary]

Never heard of that name before.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Wreckage_Analysis_Report

[Alanar]

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Wreckage_Analysis_Report

Thanks.

I am not feeling the hype for Avalorn at all, seems like this was made up/invented last year, kinda the same feeling the jailer gave me.. idk. I hope they let it sink in and leave it alone for now. Leave some crumbs you know..

[pacotaco]

Too early for a new class

Not really. If I calculated the time correctly:
- Vanilla: 2004-10-23
- TBC: 2007-01-16 (~2y 3m) -> Added paladin for Horde and Shaman for Alliance with exclusive spells for that faction. If I remember correctly they ended giving access to the opposite faction spells around the last part of the expansion.
- WotLK: 2008-11-13 (~1y 10m) -> Added DK
- Cata: 2010-12-07 (~2y 1m) -> Class redesign (mostly simplifying talent trees, how primary and secondary stats work, etc.)
- MoP: 2012-07-25 (~1y 7m) -> Added Monk, talent system revamp.
- WoD: 2014-11-13 (~2y 4m) -> Another stat revamp.
- Legion: 2016-08-30 (~1y 9m) -> Added DH. Added several legendaries for each class. Added the Artifacts (basically another talent tree for each spec on top of their actual talent tree)
- BfA: 2018-08-13 (~2y) -> Added Azerite gear (another borrowed power with again another accesory talent tree for each class on top of their ones). Added Azeite Essences (an extra talent tree). Added corruption (ANOTHER class system)
- SL: 2020-11-23 (~2y 2m) -> Added covenant powers. Added covenant class powers. Added covenant conduits. Added Thorgast powers.

In each expansion, the amount of work into classes is at minimum the neeeded for a new class (the ones with no class instead they reworked systems or went crazy adding a lot of stackable systems). If you look closely, the amount of work put in SL is like 3x the work in WotLK.

Now, in DF [2022-11-28 (~2y)] with no borrowed powers, that free time let them do:
- Complete talent revamp.
- New class with a new combat system.
- Rework several specs (I don't recall how many, 4?)

So if they don't go crazy again to add new systems/borrowed powers they can easily add 1 class (or even 2).

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard has never added two new classes back to back.

TBC: -
WotLK: New class.
Cata: -
MoP: New class.
WoD: -
Legion: New class.
BfA: -
SL: -
DF: New class.

Then again, until SL they had consistently added one every other expansion and suddenly decided not to, so who knows. If that can happen, maybe two classes in a row can also happen.

Bat that's because the ones with no new class had class revamps, talent revamps, or a lot of new class systems.
If they stop redoing from scratch all class systems every expansion, they can easily add a new class every 2 years.

[Nymrohd]

Thanks.

I am not feeling the hype for Avalorn at all, seems like this was made up/invented last year, kinda the same feeling the jailer gave me.. idk. I hope they let it sink in and leave it alone for now. Leave some crumbs you know..

So far at least Avaloren lore is not inserting itself in every other thread of lore that has ever existed. For me, Dragon Isles failed to be a decent MoP reprise so I am not opposed to them having another shot with Avaloren. I just want it to be at an equal or larger scale than MoP (thus two expacs and a full continent, not just an island) and also to not immediately follow up Dragonflight.

[Enrif]

Current Dragon Isles has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Dragon Isles from Vanilla. It was an Old God location in Vanilla. It might as well be a completely different zone.

That's my whole point.

Just because you have a name pop-up, that's not world-building. That's name-dropping something you might or might not use in the future.

What we knew about Pandaria before MoP: Pandaren are from there. Pandaren like beer.

What we knew about Dragon Isles before DF: Wrathion is searching for it. Dragons are there (obviously).

If a random NPC from TBC mentioned "Poopenburg" in their aggro dialogue, would that mean that 12.0 could be set in Poopenburg and everyone should be okay with it because it was name-dropped? Likewise, Poopenburg does not necessarily need to have its whole backstory explained in the last ten years ago to be a viable expansion-setting.

You are missing the thing, Pandaren were in fake leaks back for BC precisilse because they were known for years and years, Dragonisles was always a contender for new expansion zone, multiple times. Not jut because it was a random name. It was a name with legacy in the IP. Avaloren is nothing. The closest thing is New Avalon from the DK starting Zone.

Even if we look at Zandalar , which was known since classic when the first Zandalri trolls arrived, Kul Tiras was known from WC2, WC3 and there were multiple locations with Kul'Tiran NPCs. The Broken Isles, where known since Legion.

OFCOURSE nothing of this was known as it actually appeared in the expansion they debuted in, but their general concept and idea was known. Avaloren has nothing. Khaz Algar with Earhten that act like dwarves has more meat to it. K'aresh, which we never saw, has more meat to it. Tel'Abims Banana land has more meat than Avaloren.
Even things like Balor, Undermine or Hiji have more to it then anything Avaloren related.

[Nymrohd]

Btw I know this was discussed early on with 10.0 but I really hope that with 11.0 they consider changing the Covenant spells that practically every spec got so that they fit their classes visually and thematically. Some of them are just jarring. Spec and class identity are so important in WoW.

[Nathanyel]

There are several goddesses whose name is similar to Innaria. The Hitite Inara, the Akkadian Inanna, the Japanese Inari. There may well be others.

I was also reminded of Diablo's Inarius - not too familiar with that lore, but he seems similar to Prometheus, favoring the mortals and being punished for that.

About the algarians, I can't completely understand this paragraph of the book concerning AR

"In the course of their duties, these earthen began to manifest behaviors analogous to those which would one day be apparent in the self-styled dwarves, despite the two groups being separated by vast swaths of time and distance."

So my question is, did the algarians became "dwarves" before other earthens or I'm just not understanding something? Anyway they assumed the dwarven mannerisms on their own without any cultural influence, that's pretty strange

It's basically a Fantasy equivalent of convergent evolution - these "Dwarves" turned apparently mortal without the "Curse of Flesh" (there's still the theory that all "seed races" could change into mortal beings, integrating with the planet's native population, and the Curse either accelerated that, or is Old God propaganda entirely) but developed a society very similar to the Dwarves we know.
A real-world equivalent would be discovering a quasi-human species that split off from our lineage at the ape stage, but still developed a physiology and culture very similar to Homo Sapiens.

[Myrrh]

Thanks.

I am not feeling the hype for Avalorn at all, seems like this was made up/invented last year, kinda the same feeling the jailer gave me.. idk. I hope they let it sink in and leave it alone for now. Leave some crumbs you know..

Assuming Avaloren is in 11.0, they've evidently been working through it conceptually it for some time now, we just didn't get any opportunities for in-game teasers because we were otherwise engaged in our interspacial jaunt after captain nipples and the gimp squad.

For me personally, I'm feeling some contained hype for what we could see in a continent that is almost entirely a mystery to us. We went into Dragonflight with preconceptions about what the Isles would be because dragons are largely a known quanity, only to be drastically disappointed. A new frontier might honestly be what the game needs, back to the more traditional MMORPG vibes of venturing out into something we genuinely know nothing about.

Whether or not they stick the landing is another story, of course.

[Nymrohd]

I was also reminded of Diablo's Inarius - not too familiar with that lore, but he seems similar to Prometheus, favoring the mortals and being punished for that.

Inarius never really gave a shit for the mortals. They just happened because he couldn't keep his dick dry and if not for Lilith would have wiped them out several times.

[Wangming]

I was also reminded of Diablo's Inarius - not too familiar with that lore, but he seems similar to Prometheus, favoring the mortals and being punished for that.

Nah Inarius is a narcissistic dick. He made Lilith look like a saint.

[Makorus]

Panda and Dragon are pretty well-known concepts. You won't get blank stares from those.
Avaloren is a different beast entirely. For us, it sounds like Avalon, but that might not mean anything. And considering the American publisher renamed the first Harry Potter books cause kids would likely "not know what a philosopher is" I wouldn't quite bet on many of them knowing what Avalon is either.

They are not well-known concepts. They are well-known names.

You kinda know the gist of it based on the name. The reason people know those names is because one of them was the #1 community joke and the other one is the most well-known piece of cut content from Classic.

But they had no world building lmao. Look at the Dragon Isle page from before DF was announced.

The only thing that is not cut content is the reference from the Island Expedition, which is an Uldaman Book-tier reference.

[Enrif]

Assuming Avaloren is in 11.0, they've evidently been working through it conceptually it for some time now, we just didn't get any opportunities for in-game teasers because we were otherwise engaged in our interspacial jaunt after captain nipples and the gimp squad.

For me personally, I'm feeling some contained hype for what we could see in a continent that is almost entirely a mystery to us. We went into Dragonflight with preconceptions about what the Isles would be because dragons are largely a known quanity, only to be drastically disappointed. A new frontier might honestly be what the game needs, back to the more traditional MMORPG vibes of venturing out into something we genuinely know nothing about.

Whether or not they stick the landing is another story, of course.

i think going completely blind, without any supporting lore form the past is a big gamble. At least something familiar/known should be there. Be it Titans, Void or Medievh. Something that connects that completely unknown to the rest of Warcraft.

Personally, i bet on a timetravel expansion. With no real hints at all, timetravel is the most likely, with Nozdormu getting his powers back and his fall to Murozond not yet happening.

[Teriz]

Thanks.

I am not feeling the hype for Avalorn at all, seems like this was made up/invented last year, kinda the same feeling the jailer gave me.. idk. I hope they let it sink in and leave it alone for now. Leave some crumbs you know..

Which is why I feel that Blizzard will tie this to a more well known location, such as Undermine or the Maelstrom. While we didn’t know much about the Dragon Isles, we knew that they were tied to very well known characters like Alexstraza, Nozdormu, and Wrathion.