The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Gigantique]

So, I have NEVER been a "revamp" supporter. Not because I don't want it, but because I never cared much for it. However, my mind has since changed over the last year or so.

The question: What do YOU (MMO-C) consider a "good revamp?" Like, how do YOU "envision" it?

Referring to my earlier post; Big threat causes havoc on continents so the factions send us Champions through portals/gryphons/wind riders to hurry up to the zones to assist before the main armies can arrive. Focus on X zones for 11.0 then increase per patch.

Armistice makes it reasonable that the opposite faction Champions would assist as well. Have the zone stories use phasing, having say some unnatural storm be sweeping over the continents. We arrive at the zone and defeat the avatar of the storm to calm it, phase the storm out but it energised all the local problems in the zone giving us the more evergreen content where we get to see what's changed in the zone itself.

Hell, using storms since that's the most correct leak we have atm, make all of Azeroth's oceans become near impossible to traverse so both factions are forced to rely on eachothers' armies as the forces of SW/IF now has to assist the Forsaken and Blood Elves and those of Orgrimmar/Thunder Bluff has to assist the Draenei and Night Elves.

The champions are taught how to ride the storms so we (along with some named NPCs) are still able to travel between the oceans to help.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Got a friend coming back to the game right now and this is already a massive problem for them, and they have a past basic grasp on the game's lore. I feel awful for brand new players.

Cataclysm is, sadly, still the best actual lore introduction to the game on retail, and is far superior despite questing mechanics being outdated simply because it actually builds upon the world at a basic enough level a new player can learn about their race and the basics. And I'd be willing to bet money a lot of people who pick up an RPG are wanting to pick it up to play an RPG to start, not M+ or arenas or something. We fail to grasp people and get them invested early, they won't stay, nor get that hook a lot of us did back in the day where we get invested in our race / faction.

Oh yeah i can understand your friend because im in a social guild that mostly have returning players or some newer ones and they usually asks questions where they have to go do learn more stuff.
I love fast lvling as long time player, so i can lvl alts quickly but i think its also the problem for new players that can probably go from 1-50 or 60 in one expansion and then going to TOTALLY different theme than they played.
I would be afraid to start wow if i was new player right now.

About playing the RPG from beginning like you mentioned i think its one of the big problems that wow has when it comes to grabbing new blood, because when i returned to GW2 when i ditched wow in SL, i lvled new character through the base game(every race has different starting story campaigns) and i already knew more about my race and overall things than i would guess new wow player has after lvling to 60.
After that i wanted to see the whole story and i played in correct order until newest expansion because i was well informed where to start next.

This year i started playing ESO and played through the default base campaign and it also had much more "friendly" introduction, but not as great as GW2, because you have to look up reddit post that shows the correct order of expansions, so you don't accidentaly pickup quests from much further expansion based storyline, but once you picked the correct campaign, the game was giving you info about the world in a good pace so you don't feel overwhelmed.

[Hitei]

I mean there are many variables to "average players", how many people that played in cata are still playing wow right now on retail?
How many people start in legion for example and never really even lvled in these old zones, so with fresh stories on these lands and graphical revamps it would be still something new to explore, something that they didn't experienced before.

The questing and narrative would be big part of world revamp again, it's integral part of it and like i said it would be much better right now, especially with Metzen being there possibly correcting his mistakes from around the time that Cata was developed.

Also meadows and rebuilt farms wouldn't be a selling point of a revamp expansion, it would be some kind of "coming home" scenario with advancing plots that were long forgotten for the sake of just going to new islands/planets, favorite races and maybe their capitol cities having big presence again and such.

But everyone is different when it comes to feeling the themes of certain stuff, for me in that case full underground expansion or another cosmic on different planet expansion as 11.0 sounds like a snoozefest that hardly gets me excited as a theme.

A person who started in Legion and never leveled in those old zones A) has no investment in "going back" to them and B) has no context for the updates in the first place. See: the ever useful Redridge bridge example. If you didn't play through redridge in Vanilla-Wrath, and showed up there in Cata, the fact that the bridge is complete means absolutely nothing. It's just a bridge.

Zones being revamped have to build on the existing context of the zone, not just throw in random new stories. Is that not what you're asking for? Genuine question. I don't think people who want a revamp want to go to EPL to hear about... a random group of Kul Tirans hunting a kraken off the coast of Scarlet Enclave. They want to go see what the Argents are up to, and what the status of Stratholme is, and see Corin's Crossing rebuilt by the Forsaken and Silver Hand.

Revamps aren't for people who didn't experience the original. Being effectively "a new place" for those people isn't an argument for a revamp, because you're just making a "new place" that they lack crucial context and understanding for when instead they could be getting an actual new place they're getting the whole picture of.

[Nymrohd]

A person who started in Legion and never leveled in those old zones A) has no investment in "going back" to them and B) has no context for the updates in the first place. See: the ever useful Redridge bridge example. If you didn't play through redridge in Vanilla-Wrath, and showed up there in Cata, the fact that the bridge is complete means absolutely nothing. It's just a bridge.

Zones being revamped have to build on the existing context of the zone, not just throw in random new stories. Is that not what you're asking for? Genuine question. I don't think people who want a revamp want to go to EPL to hear about... a random group of Kul Tirans hunting a kraken off the coast of Scarlet Enclave. They want to go see what the Argents are up to, and what the status of Stratholme is, and see Corin's Crossing rebuilt by the Forsaken and Silver Hand.

Revamps aren't for people who didn't experience the original. Being effectively "a new place" for those people isn't an argument for a revamp, because you're just making a "new place" that they lack crucial context and understanding for when instead they could be getting an actual new place they're getting the whole picture of.

I mean if they never experienced the original, then ALL those areas would be new to them. Thus by your logic of a new zone always being more exciting than a repeat all these players who joined during Legion would love a revamp.

[Hitei]

Subs do not surge for every expansion. They did not surge for MoP.

[Pheraz]

A person who started in Legion and never leveled in those old zones A) has no investment in "going back" to them and B) has no context for the updates in the first place. See: the ever useful Redridge bridge example. If you didn't play through redridge in Vanilla-Wrath, and showed up there in Cata, the fact that the bridge is complete means absolutely nothing. It's just a bridge.

Zones being revamped have to build on the existing context of the zone, not just throw in random new stories. Is that not what you're asking for? Genuine question. I don't think people who want a revamp want to go to EPL to hear about... a random group of Kul Tirans hunting a kraken off the coast of Scarlet Enclave. They want to go see what the Argents are up to, and what the status of Stratholme is, and see Corin's Crossing rebuilt by the Forsaken and Silver Hand.

Revamps aren't for people who didn't experience the original. Being effectively "a new place" for those people isn't an argument for a revamp, because you're just making a "new place" that they lack crucial context and understanding for when instead they could be getting an actual new place they're getting the whole picture of.

Okay but you can agree that no matter when you started there are always "new zones" you experience and "old zones", yes?
No matter in which xpac you started the contrast between new and old is jarring. Trust me I did this with one of my daughters. She really asked if there were errors in the graphics. The difference is jarring. And the "guide" through the content is just not there.

[Hitei]

I mean if they never experienced the original, then ALL those areas would be new to them. Thus by your logic of a new zone always being more exciting than a repeat all these players who joined during Legion would love a revamp.

No? Why do you respond to things you don't bother to read.

Being effectively "a new place" for those people isn't an argument for a revamp, because you're just making a "new place" that they lack crucial context and understanding for when instead they could be getting an actual new place they're getting the whole picture of.

For those players a revamp is ostensibly the same as a new continent, not something they'd love, except that unlike a new continent, this "new" place is full of in-jokes, references and ongoing storylines that they don't understand because they require having played through two other versions of that zone that existed prior.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Revamps aren't for people who didn't experience the original. Being effectively "a new place" for those people isn't an argument for a revamp, because you're just making a "new place" that they lack crucial context and understanding for when instead they could be getting an actual new place they're getting the whole picture of.

I mean that's kinda false, because they will too lack the crucial context and understanding of another island/planet too in your presented scenario.
New places are also based on established lore that were mentioned slightly or mentioned a lot through the stuff that happened in the game.

Revamp is for everyone really, because after experiencing the story there, they would probably have better understading of basic Warcraft narrative, by better established current factions position and main azeroth races in that story, the faction you are in, the race you play as.

Just say that you don't like revamp to happen, it's pretty simple and easy, it like how i can just say that i don't want a new planet cosmic expansion or undeground expansion.

[Nymrohd]

The first expansion were subs drop from the previous one? (I loved MoP btw, all of it) The first expansion that goes off the path of nostalgia for past content (with WoD having a massive surge by selling WC2 fantasy)?

[Hitei]

If you started in Cata, then Duskwood is a "new zone".

Except you have zero context for Abercrombie. And you have zero context for Stalvan's brother investigating him, and you have zero context for Morbent Fel's switch to an actual Lich, and you have zero context for Sven Yorgen being furious at Jitters, or who either of those characters are.

So it's a "new zone" where you're stuck in the middle of a bunch of shit you don't get because it's all based on having already played through the old zone.

[Pheraz]

Just say that you don't like revamp to happen, it's pretty simple and easy, it like how i can just say that i don't want a new planet cosmic expansion or undeground expansion.

Yeah I have to agree, I can totally feel the antipathy for theme/revamp XYZ (for me it is draenor/orcs/underground) but denying that the game desperately needs a revamp to endure the next century is kind of fact ignoring.

[Nymrohd]

For those players a revamp is ostensibly the same as a new continent, not something they'd love, except that unlike a new continent, this "new" place is full of in-jokes, references and ongoing storylines that they don't understand because they require having played through two other versions of that zone that existed prior.

And this argument doesn't work for hype because that would be something that would affect their experience of that zone, not their anticipation of it. Not my fault your arguments are so bad I don't need to address them.

[Hitei]

I mean that's kinda false, because they will too lack the crucial context and understanding of another island/planet too in your presented scenario.
New places are also based on established lore that were mentioned slightly or mentioned a lot through the stuff that happened in the game.

Revamp is for everyone really, because after experiencing the story there, they would probably have better understading of basic Warcraft narrative, by better established current factions position and main azeroth races in that story, the faction you are in, the race you play as.

Just say that you don't like revamp to happen, it's pretty simple and easy, it like how i can just say that i don't want a new planet cosmic expansion or undeground expansion.

I am indifferent to a revamp. I just also have some measure of understanding for what does or doesn't have widespread appeal. I like the idea of an underground expansion, and also recognize that the average player doesn't. The average player isn't real jazzed about trees being added to Durotar or Loch Modan having water again.

[Nymrohd]

I just also have some measure of understanding for what does or doesn't have widespread appeal.

No, you just have bias and you are projecting it to the entire community.

[vintage79]

There's nothing in the actual datamined data overtly pointing to Spiritborn being a nature-based class. The entries just mention wings and flight animations with a single line referencing armor thorns. Angels have wings. Valkyries have wings. There are very few mentions of Spiritborn in the data that was shown in the video as well, and it could easily be a placeholder name.

Spiritborn does not sound like a Diablo class name at all:

• Barbarian
• Druid
• Necromancer
• Rogue
• Sorcerer
• Spiritborn?

The name itself does not invoke strong themes or an easily identifiable fantasy archetype. Druid also already exists. They are not going to have 2 nature-themed classes in a game with 6 classes. There's a reason D3 never implemented a Druid class. Witch Doctor already filled that design space, among other reasons of course.

maybe its a PH for Witch Doctor?
also new spotted zones on Steam: Teganze Plains and Torajan Jungles speak more of WD then any form of paladin class

[Hitei]

The first expansion were subs drop from the previous one? (I loved MoP btw, all of it) The first expansion that goes off the path of nostalgia for past content (with WoD having a massive surge by selling WC2 fantasy)?

WoD's surge is identical to every expansions. We have the box sales, we have the ambiguous engagement statements. That's why I said, to begin with, that every expansion does that bounce. They all jump up before an expansion and then fall down after, the only actual exception being BC, because there was still such an influx of new players that it didn't drop.

If you really think WoD did well because of WC2 nostalgia (lol) I don't know what to tell you. The entire expansion was explicitly made because Blizzard was aware that the average player had never touched WC2. Not because it was some "going back" thing.

[Nymrohd]

maybe its a PH for Woitch Doctor?

The thing is, why not name it a Witch Doctor? Plus they launch without a Heavy Armored shield warrior and they don't add one the first chance they get? Are they allergic to easy wins?

- - - Updated - - -

WoD's surge is identical to every expansions.

Except for MoP.

[Sondrelk]

If you started in Cata, then Duskwood is a "new zone".

Except you have zero context for Abercrombie. And you have zero context for Stalvan's brother investigating him, and you have zero context for Morbent Fel's switch to an actual Lich, and you have zero context for Sven Yorgen being furious at Jitters, or who either of those characters are.

So it's a "new zone" where you're stuck in the middle of a bunch of shit you don't get because it's all based on having already played through the old zone.

Sure, but you also don't need the context to really get it. Going there and stopping the big abomination makes just as much sense even without the added context. I started playing in Cataclysm, and I never really felt I was missing anything. There were references, sure. But nothing beyond what I would have expected from a long standing franchise.

Besides, what a world revamp should do, and why we desperately need one is to give players that firm understanding of the race they play, and the world they inhabit.
A new Forsaken player would have no idea what their race is about unless they play the Cata opening, Stormheim, BfA, and Shadowlands. Which is an absurd amount to put on a new player just to understand a single race.
This is context that would've required even if you go to an entirely new area.

[pacotaco]

Reach or not, there's no way anyone with a sense of "telling a good story" believes that Vyranoth "swapped sides" that fast. It makes NO sense.

She didn't swap sides, it's Firakk doing a table-flip what she ants to avoid.
My prediction is that she will go to a pact with Alex: all dragonkin are under her protection, but the ones that want to transform into titan-empowered are free to go.
She will enforce the freedom of choice that Alex promised her in the past. And the aspects will have to accept because they can't reproduce anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

Do we know Iridikron wants to end all life existence though? I don't even Fyrakk wants that, I think he just wants to commit genocidal levels of tree arson like the stinky undead elf before him.

Fyrakk is not trying to burn the tree or the world. He's trying to transform Azeroth into a sort of fire elemental plane.

[Nymrohd]

She didn't swap sides, it's Firakk doing a table-flip what she ants to avoid.
My prediction is that she will go to a pact with Alex: all dragonkin are under her protection, but the ones that want to transform into titan-empowered are free to go.
She will enforce the freedom of choice that Alex promised her in the past. And the aspects will have to accept because they can't reproduce anymore.

The thing is, I don't get exactly where Vyranoth is getting the advantage in negotiations. We murdered Razsageth. We will have murdered Fyrakk by that point. What exactly makes her confident she can force anything? I'd like a frost theme dragonscale armor and she is just there.