The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Varodoc]

Isn't it a bit funny that you try to insist on a "we already did that" for a creature existing out of the "already" continuum entirely?

Murozond is Nozdormu and more, any plan Nozdormu could have ever conceived of Murozond already knows. Practically this means Nozdormu can never "outsmart" Murozond, practically meaning Nozdormu cannot truly kill him or cause him to be killed, because Murozond knows exactly what will be done and can, knowing his past's actions, avert it. If Murozond is to be genuinely killed it has to be done by someone not affiliated to Nozdormu at all.

Practically his end in the endtime was as even less convincing than N'zoth's, in spite of some people effectively going "But i looted him so he's gone FOREVER!!1!", in a setting where we literally just came back from the land of dead and had our asses handed to us by an alternate timeline version of Gul'dan. Nevermind that the void / old gods' whole schtick is that they literally just do not die (as in they just continue to do their thing in spite of their "death"), which is why the titans concluded that imprisonment was the better option.

It is already stated as an objective fact that the Old Gods do not die, nor live, they are outside the cycle.

It wouldn't surprise Me if they transcended even Time itself, effectively existing outside the normal flow of Time.

They can already perceive all futures, and Past N'Zoth was able to perceive the past, present, and future of the Player character.

The Old Gods are special, the Old Gods are unique, the Old Gods exist outside the cycle.

Of course, their decision to manipulate and corrupt Nozdormu and his dragons was genius and also boosts their control of Time. The corruption of the Keepers of Time allowed them to gain an entire faction that manipulates and controls time, giving them the ability to disrupt the timelines to their advantage.

This is effectively what the Old Gods have been doing since TBC. They had their minions, Murozond and the Infinite Dragonflight, disrupt the time-flows, by preventing the rise of future enemies like the Horde and the Scourge (preventing the orcs from crossing into Azeroth; preventing Thrall from escaping to Kalimdor; preventing Arthas from completing his destiny in Northrend; all done to create a timeline where the Old Gods' enemies are removed from existence).

The Old Gods, with their Infinite Dragon puppets, have the ability to disrupt Time and we shouldn't underestimate this power that they have.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

-snip-

Pretty much how I feel on the matter. More pertinently, I also feel like Murozond is just too good of a villain to waste on a Cataclysm dungeon when there's such an easy out with him. We're in need of good villains—hopefully they don't re-kill him in some permanent way that precludes him from continuing to appear frequently in the future, too. I'd much prefer for him to join Denathrius and Azshara in the realm of recurring antagonists.

[Grimbold21]

I don't understand why this thread has diverted to Y'shaarj oO

Because this is what happens in mmo-champion when the news well slows to a drip. People come up with the most ludricuous topics around which they measure their online egos until the next big piece of news comes around again.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He already has an heir (anachronos), but wokers gonna woke, unfortunately. Rip.

Chomie has been the biggest character the bronze has had through out all of wow showing up likely more then every other bronze dragon combined.

If they pick her over the non entity that is anachronos it will be because that’s where the focus on her has been leading since classic not because of any thing to do with wokeness.

[micwini]

Are you one of these excellent guys who scream "woke" each time they see a girl in media?

I think his problem is that they made Chromie transgender to cover up the fact that they fucked up their own naming conventions.

That is not the point at all. The problem is using that as the main reason for shoehorning a character into a position they shouldn't be, since it makes no sense. There already is an heir: Anachronos. Same thing if they randomly kill him off for this to happen.

Pelagos? I don't give a F, because really, there wasn't an obvious alternative that would have made more or less sense to use.

It's all about having the story make sense. And on front of characters succeeding others: Blizzard and a lot of other media have a poor track record of having successive characters make sense instead of the replacing character being the latest woke trend.

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Chomie has been the biggest character the bronze has had through out all of wow showing up likely more then every other bronze dragon combined.

If they pick her over the non entity that is anachronos it will be because that’s where the focus on her has been leading since classic not because of any thing to do with wokeness.

Literally no other bronze apart from Chromie or Noz has had any meaningful character development. That gives Anachronos some room to grow if he is made Aspect.
Chromie is OK for a comedic relief character, but should not be the new Aspect. It is already annoying enough that there are so many over the top disneyfied voice acting moments in the more serious plotlines.

[Varodoc]

That is not the point at all. The problem is using that as the main reason for shoehorning a character into a position they shouldn't be, since it makes no sense. There already is an heir: Anachronos. Same thing if they randomly kill him off for this to happen.

Pelagos? I don't give a F, because really, there wasn't an obvious alternative that would have made more or less sense to use.

It's all about having the story make sense. And on front of characters succeeding others: Blizzard and a lot of other media have a poor track record of having successive characters make sense instead of the replacing character being the latest woke trend.

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Literally no other bronze apart from Chromie or Noz has had any meaningful character development. That gives Anachronos some room to grow if he is made Aspect.
Chromie is OK for a comedic relief character, but should not be the new Aspect. It is already annoying enough that there are so many over the top disneyfied voice acting moments in the more serious plotlines.

I actually agree with you.

How could anyone take the Bronze Dragonflight seriously if they're lead by a literal squeaking midget?

It's like making that vulpera majordomo the leader of the Red Dragonflight, what a joke.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Literally no other bronze apart from Chromie or Noz has had any meaningful character development. That gives Anachronos some room to grow if he is made Aspect.
Chromie is OK for a comedic relief character, but should not be the new Aspect. It is already annoying enough that there are so many over the top disneyfied voice acting moments in the more serious plotlines.

Anachronos Really don’t have any room to grow as he has nothing going for him he needs to be built from The ground up and blizzard has never shown an interest in that.

Chromie on the other hand is an actual character who could change and develop something they already laid the seeds for.

Like every thing they have ever done with her points to Chromie being the bronze of note and the only thing Anachronos has over here is a non comical voice.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't really care, they could of used Anachronos but they chose Chromie and again I don't care for her being the new aspect.

[Khaza-R]

My only objection to Chromie being the new Aspect is that she's hard to take seriously. She's been written as a sort of silly, fun side character over the years and having her try to deliver lines during serious lore events could ruin the moment.

[Berkilak]

My only objection to Chromie being the new Aspect is that she's hard to take seriously. She's been written as a sort of silly, fun side character over the years and having her try to deliver lines during serious lore events could ruin the moment.

She's almost a walking fourth wall break. I actually enjoy the character, but she's more of a mascot than she is an actual character. And given that all narrative focus on her has been about her inexperience and resultant failures and corrections... it would be odd to give her the Aspect title. I'd definitely feel the presence of the Hand of the Creator rather than feel that it arose as a natural consequence of a longform narrative.

[huth]

Isn't it a bit funny that you try to insist on a "we already did that" for a creature existing out of the "already" continuum entirely?

Murozond is Nozdormu and more, any plan Nozdormu could have ever conceived of Murozond already knows. Practically this means Nozdormu can never "outsmart" Murozond, practically meaning Nozdormu cannot truly kill him or cause him to be killed, because Murozond knows exactly what will be done and can, knowing his past's actions, avert it. If Murozond is to be genuinely killed it has to be done by someone not affiliated to Nozdormu at all.

But we didn't outsmart him. We just went right up to him and murdered his ass. Which, for that matter, he knew was going to happen, but he also had to let it happen because he already saw it happen. Twice, in fact. Once as a vision from Aman'thul, and then again in person.

Knowing somebody's plans does you no good when you lack the ability to do anything about them. It doesn't make you invincible.

For that matter, there's plenty of things Nozdormu does not directly get involved in. This may well be the reason for that. His flight has a high grade of autonomy, so Murozond often doesn't actually know the plans in question.

[micwini]

I actually agree with you.

How could anyone take the Bronze Dragonflight seriously if they're lead by a literal squeaking midget?

It's like making that vulpera majordomo the leader of the Red Dragonflight, what a joke.

My only objection to Chromie being the new Aspect is that she's hard to take seriously. She's been written as a sort of silly, fun side character over the years and having her try to deliver lines during serious lore events could ruin the moment.

She's almost a walking fourth wall break. I actually enjoy the character, but she's more of a mascot than she is an actual character. And given that all narrative focus on her has been about her inexperience and resultant failures and corrections... it would be odd to give her the Aspect title. I'd definitely feel the presence of the Hand of the Creator rather than feel that it arose as a natural consequence of a longform narrative.

Anachronos Really don’t have any room to grow as he has nothing going for him he needs to be built from The ground up and blizzard has never shown an interest in that.

Chromie on the other hand is an actual character who could change and develop something they already laid the seeds for.

Like every thing they have ever done with her points to Chromie being the bronze of note and the only thing Anachronos has over here is a non comical voice.

This 1000 times. And yes Noz and Chromie are the only developed bronzes, but that doesnt mean they can build Anachronos. They did the same with Merithra, who also came out of nowhere apart from a few cameos earlier.

[Nathanyel]

Between Chromie and Anachronos, I'd prefer Anachronos, since Chromie just would be impossible to take seriously as a Dragon Aspect. She's a perfectly fine character in her proper time and place, but elevating her to such a role would be quite destructive.

At the danger of repeating the Horde Council and the Desolate Council ad nauseam, I could see each of the dragonflights shifting to a shared leadership, with prominent figures at the helm that are able to make decisions for their flight, but are also available as "down-to-earth" protagonists for smaller stories.

To be honest, the dragonflights save the Black have always been portrayed as a kind of commune, albeit with a singular ultimate but benevolent leader, advised by respected members of the flight.
Meanwhile, as huth put it above, individuals already have a lot of autonomy already. That is not just true of the Bronze.

Kalecgos literally learns the values of "family" in the Azure Span campaign, and particularly the Blues have many older and established characters like Azuregos and Senegos which would serve as the wise but reclusive members of the council.

Especially Chromie and Ebyssian are (in my eyes) actually good natural leaders, but would not choose the responsibility of solo leadership.
Insofar I agree, despite grinding my teeth, that they should not become Aspects.

The current Aspects don't need to die or even be excluded from these councils. Make it a point of the story that the Aspectral Powers are restored by sharing then with your flight, instead of focusing them on one Aspect.

[Makorus]

People talk shit about WoDs "confusing" time travel, but I feel like the Murozond situation is far, far worse.

I wish they would just distance themselves from that dumpsterfire that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[Nymrohd]

Anachronos could easily be brought to the front and build up. He has an established relation with the other surviving aspect heir Merithra (the four of them stopped the War of the Shifting Sands, Calen who was killed pointlessly, Arygos who was killed in a novel instead of having a Cata raid and Merithra who is now central to the plot). If they go with an Emerald Dream 10.2, they can bring Anachronos back there to visit Merithra and have them act together, perhaps bringing Nozdormu and Alexstrasza to check on Ysera as well. The space in the narrative is there. Then in 10.3 Chromie can go back to solving the issue with the Infinite but if Noz has to be replaced in that story, Anachronos can be right there to take his place.

The one I think we will end up seeing even though he is dead is Kairoz. He is supposed to be there when Soridormi dies. And Soridormi is supposed to die in the Caverns of Time.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Maaaybe, but a time travel expansion where we go back to events that already took place, isn't really a compelling story if you think about it. You can't affect change. I mean, if it is JUST that.

The other Final Fantasy MMO had an entire expansion set during the great big war that preceded the present storyline. Turns out, people wanted to fight in that war so that is what they got. You got to see characters in their youth like young Rahal or the predecessors to current characters, and see how the big events you heard about turned out. And time travelling back to experience the War of the Ancients seems to be a recurring expansion idea for WoW.

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I wish time travel was used even more in this expansion and i hope it will be in patches beyond 10.1.

The lvling questline where you go fast through different timelines saving chromie & eternus was awesome and far more interesting than any of these primalist antagonists.

Maybe the megadungeon could have you travelling through different time periods.

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Everything regarding the infinte dragonflight is from a realtiv timepoint befor the end of murozond. So we allready know they failed.

Do you really think modern Blizzard honors writing set up a decade prior? They retcon their lore every other year. Remember the Kilrog fight in Legion where you saw a vision of you and Khadgar making a last stand against the Legion and then blowing themselves up? Never came to pass in the very next expansion.

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Also off topic in a way: I really really hope chromie does not replace Nozdormu... i cannot stand that voice...

Me too, but given what happened to the Arbiter it seems like a foregone conclusion that Nozdormu will be replaced.

[Varodoc]

The other Final Fantasy MMO had an entire expansion set during the great big war that preceded the present storyline. Turns out, people wanted to fight in that war so that is what they got. You got to see characters in their youth like young Rahal or the predecessors to current characters, and see how the big events you heard about turned out. And time travelling back to experience the War of the Ancients seems to be a recurring expansion idea for WoW.

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Maybe the megadungeon could have you travelling through different time periods.

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Do you really think modern Blizzard honors writing set up a decade prior? They retcon their lore every other year. Remember the Kilrog fight in Legion where you saw a vision of you and Khadgar making a last stand against the Legion and then blowing themselves up? Never came to pass in the very next expansion.

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Me too, but given what happened to the Arbiter it seems like a foregone conclusion that Nozdormu will be replaced.

For once, it's not even a retcon... literally right after End Times Murozond was defeated, Nozdormu noted that he was doomed to become him, and warned the players that they would have to fight him eventually. Nothing is retconned here, people have known for a decade that Nozdormu is doomed.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Do you think we'll ever see the mongrel horde? Maybe as a 3rd faction...

Other monstrous races like Quillboar and Harpies should have been added to the playable Horde. Doubt we will ever get them as antagonists for an expansion. Other ideas are cooler.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Why are people here ignoring the fact that the Old Gods are immense, continent-sized beings? It doesn't mean anything if Y'Shaarj's main body only has one head, because he could still have other 6 heads spread throughout the land, along with the tentacles of his massive body.

Y'Shaarj was known as the "God of Seven Heads", "The Seven-headed One", "The Beast of Seven Heads", and this is a fact. It is also obvious that each head of Y'Shaarj spawned one of the prime Sha (7 heads of Y'Shaarj = 7 prime Sha). This is actually just a rehash of Diablo plot, where the 7 great evils were born from the remains of the seven-headed dragon Tathamet, the original evil.

So the fact that Y'Shaarj is depicted only with one head is irrelevant, that is likely just his main body. Each Old God has a main part of their body, but in reality they are continent-sized beings. Y'Shaarj was the most powerful Old God, so he would have been even bigger than the others, and so his other 6 heads could have been spread throughout the land.

What is an objective fact is that Y'Shaarj is remembered as a Seven-headed being, and his death spawned 7 Prime sha.

Furthermore, the idea that Hearthstone can be ignored is obviously laughable, when N'Zoth's main appearance and Canon form came from Hearthstone. I don't doubt that the Y'Shaarj's appearance in Hearthstone is Canonical, but it doesn't mean that he couldn't have other 6 heads spread across his CONTINENT-SIZED body.

Why are you not directly quote replying the person(s) in question instead of making a broad, generalized accusation aimed at everybody supposedly ignoring something that has already been touched on?

This isn’t Wowpedia. You do not have to copy/paste factoids.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Wasn’t the idea of a “Mongrel Horde” — comprised of various beast-like races like gnolls, centaur, quillboar and harpies — one of the original spitball ideas for what eventually Warlords of Draenor became?