The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

People here who think Azshara will be successful are not paying attention. Azshara and Denathrius are funny, but they are destined to lose. Denathrius failed everything, he lost everything.

1) He lost his realm.
2) He lost his body.
3) He was humiliated and mocked.
4) His allies in the Maw did not give a shit about rescuing him and considered him a mere pawn.

Denathrius lost everything, Azshara will lose everything too, if she continues to play with powers she does not understand.

I know that you are a LARPer and mostly trollpost but this is an interesting point I disagree with.

Both Azshara and Denathrius were bound to a more powerful entity that could likely kill them instantly if they didn't play nice. While Azshara probably was in a better state than N'zoth before he was free, they were still bound by their pact and there are likely some ties we don't know about that made Azshara actually want to bring N'zoth back to Azeroth. And Denathrius, while extremely powerful, still could likely have been dominated by Zovaal at any moment Zovaal needed him to behave.

The absence of both N'zoth (regenerating?) and Zovaal (likely completely erased) means that both these powerful entities don't have a boss and they can now do whatever they want. They absolutely are in better positions than before, though Denathrius losing a steady stream of anima to eat is probably a net negative. But he still has the Nathrezim placed in every cosmic realm and allied to him even if he lost his Venthyr thralls.

tl;dr Azshara and Denny are in better places than before we killed them and their leaders the first time.

[Sondrelk]

I think Azshara is likely one of the people that has likely delved deep into the cosmology of the universe. She references seeking a true throne of power. She could perhaps achieve that by supplanting Azeroth or maybe she can find a way to supplant the First ones.

And ultimately, is Azshara winning bad? Like yes, she wanted to be worshipped but she also created a very advanced civilization on Azeroth with what seemed to be a high standard of living.

It's hard to say how responsible Azshara was for the Kaldorei empire. We know that she inherited what was already a quite significant empire, and that she was there for it's downfall.
Feels like most of her accomplishments as a ruler can be chalked up to her beauty causing a natural dictatorship with fanatical followers. Beyond being a powerful mage she also hasnt really been shown to be that great a leader, but rather coasting on her talents.

[Nymrohd]

It's hard to say how responsible Azshara was for the Kaldorei empire. We know that she inherited what was already a quite significant empire, and that she was there for it's downfall.
Feels like most of her accomplishments as a ruler can be chalked up to her beauty causing a natural dictatorship with fanatical followers. Beyond being a powerful mage she also hasnt really been shown to be that great a leader, but rather coasting on her talents.

Wish we knew a bit about Azshara's predecessors. Was the monarchy hereditary? 'd love some info on Azshara's mother.

[Fahrad Wagner]

It's hard to say how responsible Azshara was for the Kaldorei empire. We know that she inherited what was already a quite significant empire, and that she was there for it's downfall. Feels like most of her accomplishments as a ruler can be chalked up to her beauty causing a natural dictatorship with fanatical followers. Beyond being a powerful mage she also hasnt really been shown to be that great a leader, but rather coasting on her talents.

We don't have a lot of information regarding her reign, only that it was prosperous and she became the Kaldorei Empire's most beloved monarch. I would assume before her downfall to evil ways and her pact with the legion that she participated in expanding her empire and making it florish, however I can't remember any source material detailing that further.

I do believe her qualities as a leader lie more within the fascination she inspired (and still inspires) to her people. Of legendary beauty, born with a gift for magic like no one else before her, a powerful sorceress whose power would match that of Kil'Jaeden and Sargeras as described by Illidan and Mannoroth... this has to inspire respect or fear, or maybe a mix of both. When you wield power like this, whether you are a great leader or not does not really matter anymore because (as you said) it will draw/consolidate the fanatical followers and instaure you as ruler. I think to her naga, she's more of a Goddess than a Queen.

[Varodoc]

I know that you are a LARPer and mostly trollpost but this is an interesting point I disagree with.

Both Azshara and Denathrius were bound to a more powerful entity that could likely kill them instantly if they didn't play nice. While Azshara probably was in a better state than N'zoth before he was free, they were still bound by their pact and there are likely some ties we don't know about that made Azshara actually want to bring N'zoth back to Azeroth. And Denathrius, while extremely powerful, still could likely have been dominated by Zovaal at any moment Zovaal needed him to behave.

The absence of both N'zoth (regenerating?) and Zovaal (likely completely erased) means that both these powerful entities don't have a boss and they can now do whatever they want. They absolutely are in better positions than before, though Denathrius losing a steady stream of anima to eat is probably a net negative. But he still has the Nathrezim placed in every cosmic realm and allied to him even if he lost his Venthyr thralls.

tl;dr Azshara and Denny are in better places than before we killed them and their leaders the first time.

Did we play the same expansion? Denathrius absolutely did not need to team up with the Jailer, it was the Jailer who needed Denathrius. Denathrius funnelled all of Revendreth's sinful anima into the Maw, greatly boosting it in size and power, and he also gave away his Sigil for free. If Denathrius never did any of that, the Jailer would lack massive boost from Revendreth and also he would not get one of the Sigils for free, which means that he would either have to invade Revendreth somehow, or the path to Zereth Mortis would be locked to him forever.

Before teaming up with the Jailer, Denathrius had a body, all of Revendreth, and the trust of the other Eternal Ones.

After teaming up with the Jailer (and losing pathetically), Denathrius no longer has a body, he was humiliated and mocked, he lost 99.9% of his assets (as he no longer controls Revendreth and its inhabitants), he has 0 allies, and he's only left with a few homeless Nathrezim servants (as the Nathrezim lost their base of operations Nathreza to Illidan's actions).

Absolutely nothing was a success for Denathrius. Even if, by miracle, the few Nathrezim left are able to free him from the blade, he'll have no base, no armies, no allies, nothing. He is beaten and humiliated.

As for Azshara, she did nothing but play her role in N'Zoth's grand scheme. N'Zoth no longer has any use for her, so she can do whatever she wants (with the few minions she has left after her legions and greatest minions were slaughtered by the players in 8.2). Azshara and her Naga Empire have been decimated and defeated, but they have fullfilled their purpose to the Old God, and so they are discarded by N'Zoth, like toys that have outlived their usefulness.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Xal'atath already has the best body she could ask for. The body of a Thalassian High elf.

When you look at the facts in the source material, the Elves from Quel'Thalas pretty much represent the peak of mortal evolution in terms of magical capabilities.

Are we sure that Azshara's body would be better than the High Elf's body that Xal'atath currently has?

Jiana has canonically been the strongest mortal mage since WC3, beyond her though there are the guardians who while not using there own power was able to house more power then any other magic user on Azeroth and we’re For the most part human, then we have the Eradar who had Archimonde who was more Powerful then any sole mortal and finally high Bourne with Azshara thought to be on par with archamonde.

The high/blood/void elfs have never had any one close to peak magical capability’s.

[Nymrohd]

Jiana has canonically been the strongest mortal mage since WC3, beyond her though there are the guardians who while not using there own power was able to house more power then any other magic user on Azeroth and we’re For the most part human, then we have the Eradar who had Archimonde who was more Powerful then any sole mortal and finally high Bourne with Azshara thought to be on par with archamonde.

The high/blood/void elfs have never had any one close to peak magical capability’s.

Is Jaina really supposed to be stronger than Aegwynn (even base Aegwynn without Guardian powers who nearly won against Guardian-empowered, Sargeras-possesed Medivh simply on pure skill)? Let alone Azshara? And Azshara would be the strongest simply because of feats; she kept a tidal wave that washed away a continent still for several moments when Jaina would have needed the Focusing Iris to produce one strong enough to hit just Orgrimmar.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Is Jaina really supposed to be stronger than Aegwynn (even base Aegwynn without Guardian powers who nearly won against Guardian-empowered, Sargeras-possesed Medivh simply on pure skill)? Let alone Azshara? And Azshara would be the strongest simply because of feats; she kept a tidal wave that washed away a continent still for several moments when Jaina would have needed the Focusing Iris to produce one strong enough to hit just Orgrimmar.

Ya she’s stronger then Aegwynn, likely less skilled though, and Azshara isn’t a mortal but would obviously be stronger then Jaina when she was one.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

We don't have a lot of information regarding her reign, only that it was prosperous and she became the Kaldorei Empire's most beloved monarch. I would assume before her downfall to evil ways and her pact with the legion that she participated in expanding her empire and making it florish, however I can't remember any source material detailing that further.

I do believe her qualities as a leader lie more within the fascination she inspired (and still inspires) to her people. Of legendary beauty, born with a gift for magic like no one else before her, a powerful sorceress whose power would match that of Kil'Jaeden and Sargeras as described by Illidan and Mannoroth... this has to inspire respect or fear, or maybe a mix of both. When you wield power like this, whether you are a great leader or not does not really matter anymore because (as you said) it will draw/consolidate the fanatical followers and instaure you as ruler. I think to her naga, she's more of a Goddess than a Queen.

I feel that the latter observation is more likely—I don't think making her into a villainous Mary Sue, whose capacities are so extensive that it's impossible to really consider her a villain, would do any good. I prefer Azshara as something of an exceptionally powerful cult leader or charismatic despot. Although she's certainly extraordinarily powerful, she's still ultimately a fairly petty person whose primary motivation is satisfying her own narcissistic tendencies. She was never really a good leader, just an exceptionally inspiring one. Think of Adolf Hitler—his leadership wasn't actually exceptionally competent, and much of what he did to reinvigorate Germany was really predicated on a giant Ponzi Scheme. However, his charisma was such that he was able to override people's common sense and intelligence, reducing them to frothing, obsessive hordes devoid of basic morality.

Ultimately, I don't think she should be a good leader, or even have a sustainable or smart idea about what the future should be like. What she should be is someone who is disturbingly inspiring, and capable of producing results in leading people to abandon their better sense. She's a demagogue, albeit one whose malfeasance is bolstered by magic and real talent.

[Catastrophy349]

Bravo to Blizzard on the timing between 10.0.7 and 10.1. 6 weeks between the two patches. 6 Zskera Vaults to explore. 6 sets of "new quests" each week on the Forbidden Reach. The new quests this week (saving Dracthyr) are interesting. Really excited for the remaining week's content leading into 10.1!

[Revamp Man]

Xal'atath already has the best body she could ask for. The body of a Thalassian High elf.

When you look at the facts in the source material, the Elves from Quel'Thalas pretty much represent the peak of mortal evolution in terms of magical capabilities.

Are we sure that Azshara's body would be better than the High Elf's body that Xal'atath currently has?

That's not a real body iirc it's just a creation of her to be perceived but yes I think the body of the single strongest mage on the planet is better

[draugril]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

[Eeram]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

omg these guys so funny

[Houle]

Is Jaina really supposed to be stronger than Aegwynn (even base Aegwynn without Guardian powers who nearly won against Guardian-empowered, Sargeras-possesed Medivh simply on pure skill)? Let alone Azshara? And Azshara would be the strongest simply because of feats; she kept a tidal wave that washed away a continent still for several moments when Jaina would have needed the Focusing Iris to produce one strong enough to hit just Orgrimmar.

To be fair tho, Azsharah was probably still juiced up by the leftover Well of Eternity powers when she did that, considering she basically bathed in the stuff for years.

[Hitei]

To be fair tho, Azsharah was probably still juiced up by the leftover Well of Eternity powers when she did that, considering she basically bathed in the stuff for years.

Every Highborne sorcerer was, none of them were even remotely close to the skill, precision and power level that Azshara was at. I agree that it's difficult to differentiate what influence the well had (the well is what made them Night Elves in the first place, after all), but I don't think we can write off what she did at the Sundering as being the Well.

I think if we're gonna have a discussion involving Aegwynn especially, it feels silly to nitpick that Azshara probably gained strength from prolonged exposure to the Well.

[Luck4]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

This never gets old, and yet I still fall for it...

[Trazzle]

Curious thing to find some Azurite in this weeks vault. Wonder if it’ll reenter the narrative in some way.

[Alanar]

While yeah, many champions do different things, the main ordeal is that we, as the players, are canonical to the events of the raids and whatnot, and while not EVERY champion may be the same, there is 100% at least 1 guy that's canonically been there since Classic lmaooo

A lot of the time, we are the same guys, tho sometimes there are differences

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Her plans were ass bro lmaooo

She survived in the end, guess she had the last laugh. Good one.

[Nymrohd]

She survived in the end, guess she had the last laugh. Good one.

Plus she had one of the few boss encounters where we actually lost. Sure we beat her but her goal for that encounter was complete first like the dragonchicken this patch.

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I feel that the latter observation is more likely—I don't think making her into a villainous Mary Sue, whose capacities are so extensive that it's impossible to really consider her a villain, would do any good. I prefer Azshara as something of an exceptionally powerful cult leader or charismatic despot. Although she's certainly extraordinarily powerful, she's still ultimately a fairly petty person whose primary motivation is satisfying her own narcissistic tendencies. She was never really a good leader, just an exceptionally inspiring one. Think of Adolf Hitler—his leadership wasn't actually exceptionally competent, and much of what he did to reinvigorate Germany was really predicated on a giant Ponzi Scheme. However, his charisma was such that he was able to override people's common sense and intelligence, reducing them to frothing, obsessive hordes devoid of basic morality.

Ultimately, I don't think she should be a good leader, or even have a sustainable or smart idea about what the future should be like. What she should be is someone who is disturbingly inspiring, and capable of producing results in leading people to abandon their better sense. She's a demagogue, albeit one whose malfeasance is bolstered by magic and real talent.

I think she values having a succesful and happy empire not because she cares about people but because it is part of her vanity. There is no benevolence in her actions but Azshara does not want to rule over hovels from a palace, she wants to rule over palaces from a grander palace. She did not seem impressed by N'zoth after all, she was impressed by Nyalotha.

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Bravo to Blizzard on the timing between 10.0.7 and 10.1. 6 weeks between the two patches. 6 Zskera Vaults to explore. 6 sets of "new quests" each week on the Forbidden Reach. The new quests this week (saving Dracthyr) are interesting. Really excited for the remaining week's content leading into 10.1!

Yeah the pacing is great. My one concern is I am not sure I'll reach exalted with the dracthyr faction on time.

[Alanar]

Plus she had one of the few boss encounters where we actually lost. Sure we beat her but her goal for that encounter was complete.

This is actually true and it was clear from the get go, she didnt care for n zoth. If she just had died(she gave him 2 options), N zoth would probably be still stuck there. Sure, its hard to know if her plans on the true throne was something she came up afterwards or before all of this, but I cant say her plans sucked. Both denathrius and Azshara completed their tasks and both survived.