The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[huth]

I... definitely didn't read it that way. Insofar as I understood, N'Zoth appealed to her ego and placated her by adding that "sure, you'll be my slave, but you'll also be a queen!", conveniently failing to add that a queen is still very much a piece on the board.

Well, she wasn't exactly in a situation to be making many demands or explore other options. She also made it clear that she was very much planning to backstab him as soon as she was physically able.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

And yet it was clear that she plotted against him from the start.

Well, she wasn't exactly in a situation to be making many demands or explore other options. She also made it clear that she was very much planning to backstab him as soon as she was physically able.

True, but it wasn't exactly like N'Zoth wasn't aware of that. As far as I understood, N'Zoth was wholly aware that she was untrustworthy and intended to dispose of her as soon as she outlived her usefulness, going off how the next time we see Azshara she's in Ny'Alotha as a prisoner. Then, I suppose I might be drawing too close to being disingenuous—I may be coping in a misguided effort to minimize obnoxious character shilling on Blizzard's part—as annoyed as I was with the character shilling N'Zoth received in a failed effort to hype him up, it would be just as frustrating if Azshara became subject to "look at our SUPR KEWL CHARACTER!!! She's SUPER SMART and PLANNED EVERYTHING and OUTSMARTED TEH OLD GOD!!!!"

This is doubly relevant, as I feel like Azshara is one of the more tolerable characters around, and narrative character shilling rapidly diminishes any appreciation I have for a character. It would also be far more disastrous for her than N'Zoth, given how N'Zoth didn't really have a personality to worry about losing out on.

[Fahrad Wagner]

True, but it wasn't exactly like N'Zoth wasn't aware of that. As far as I understood, N'Zoth was wholly aware that she was untrustworthy and intended to dispose of her as soon as she outlived her usefulness, going off how the next time we see Azshara she's in Ny'Alotha as a prisoner. Then, I suppose I might be drawing too close to being disingenuous—I may be coping in a misguided effort to minimize obnoxious character shilling on Blizzard's part—as annoyed as I was with the character shilling N'Zoth received in a failed effort to hype him up, it would be just as frustrating if Azshara became subject to "look at our SUPR KEWL CHARACTER!!! She's SUPER SMART and PLANNED EVERYTHING and OUTSMARTED TEH OLD GOD!!!!"

This is doubly relevant, as I feel like Azshara is one of the more tolerable characters around, and narrative character shilling rapidly diminishes any appreciation I have for a character. It would also be far more disastrous for her than N'Zoth, given how N'Zoth didn't really have a personality to worry about losing out on.

I agree N'Zoth likely knew Azshara was looking to double-cross him (it? them? what do you use for and Old God?!). It takes one to know one after all... however I wouldn't put it past any of them to have actual, B, C, D and E plans involving f*cking up Azeroth which could still come to fruition.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I agree N'Zoth likely knew Azshara was looking to double-cross them. It takes one to know one after all... however I wouldn't put it past any of them to have actual, B, C, D and E plans involving f*cking up Azeroth which could still come to fruition.

Oh, that I know for sure. Mind you, Azshara's still a plenty intelligent and dangerous person, and she probably has a plan in mind. My theory is that she'll either supplant Y'Shaarj as the fourth Old God (given that Y'Shaarj seems to be "more" dead than the others) by exploiting her erstwhile connection to the Well of Eternity (I feel this way because she really is effectively an Old God, anyway—a powerful, tentacled entity surrounded by throngs of frothing, slavishly-devoted followers), or that she'll try to use some kind of hitherto-unknown Titan facility's function to replace Azeroth with herself.

Also, as for N'Zoth's pronouns, "it" has been used consistently for all the Old Gods except for Yogg-Saron.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Oh, that I know for sure. Mind you, Azshara's still a plenty intelligent and dangerous person, and she probably has a plan in mind. My theory is that she'll either supplant Y'Shaarj as the fourth Old God (given that Y'Shaarj seems to be "more" dead than the others) by exploiting her erstwhile connection to the Well of Eternity (I feel this way because she really is effectively an Old God, anyway—a powerful, tentacled entity surrounded by throngs of frothing, slavishly-devoted followers), or that she'll try to use some kind of hitherto-unknown Titan facility's function to replace Azeroth with herself.

The last one has always been one of my favourite theories (and its so on-brand for that character)

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The last one has always been one of my favourite theories (and its so on-brand for that character)

I actually originally came up with an idea along those lines about nine months or so before Shadowlands was revealed, but it was actually Gorak Tul I imagined doing it—he'd replace Xavius as Nightmare Lord and try (followed by, obviously enough, failing) to use a reflection of Ulduar's secret facilities to conduct an emergency transplantation mechanic that would replace Azeroth's World-Soul with a Titan Construct in the case that corruption exceeded a certain threshold.

Obviously, Azshara's quite a bit more likely to do this than Gorak Tul of all people—her narcissism lends her well to it.

[Wangming]

Only basic bitches use a blood elf body. Just saying.

Now I have it stuck in my head, imagine if Xal'atath got a "sexy" version of K'thir that looks like Edna from Futurama.

True, but she had like nothing better on hand. It's not like she can just waltz into the hot female body shop and grab a Yrel doll or something.

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Oh, that I know for sure. Mind you, Azshara's still a plenty intelligent and dangerous person, and she probably has a plan in mind. My theory is that she'll either supplant Y'Shaarj as the fourth Old God (given that Y'Shaarj seems to be "more" dead than the others) by exploiting her erstwhile connection to the Well of Eternity (I feel this way because she really is effectively an Old God, anyway—a powerful, tentacled entity surrounded by throngs of frothing, slavishly-devoted followers), or that she'll try to use some kind of hitherto-unknown Titan facility's function to replace Azeroth with herself.

Also, as for N'Zoth's pronouns, "it" has been used consistently for all the Old Gods except for Yogg-Saron.

Well Azshara is old and is worshipped as a god so she is definitely an old god. Not necessarily an Old God. Replacing Azeroth's World Soul sounds a bit like what Fandaniel did in Endwalker. And also sounds exactly what Azshara would do.

[Nymrohd]

The last one has always been one of my favourite theories (and its so on-brand for that character)

I think Azshara is likely one of the people that has likely delved deep into the cosmology of the universe. She references seeking a true throne of power. She could perhaps achieve that by supplanting Azeroth or maybe she can find a way to supplant the First ones.

And ultimately, is Azshara winning bad? Like yes, she wanted to be worshipped but she also created a very advanced civilization on Azeroth with what seemed to be a high standard of living.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Well Azshara is old and is worshipped as a god so she is definitely an old god. Not necessarily an Old God. Replacing Azeroth's World Soul sounds a bit like what Fandaniel did in Endwalker. And also sounds exactly what Azshara would do.

The Titan theory is certainly more plausible, and that's what I would be more inclined to expect to happen—as for the Old God bit, that was mainly inspired by a bit in A Thousand Years of War where it's suggested Alleria could be capable of something similar. Then again, I wouldn't exactly call the Void a trustworthy source for what is and is not possible.

And ultimately, is Azshara winning bad? Like yes, she wanted to be worshipped but she also created a very advanced civilization on Azeroth with what seemed to be a high standard of living.

I'd say it would be—let's not forget that the highly-advanced civilization she ran was still fundamentally propped up by violent expansionism and a caste system. I'd also suggest that any society that would be inclined to cavort with evil space demons may be fundamentally-flawed.

[Nymrohd]

I'd say it would be—let's not forget that the highly-advanced civilization she ran was still fundamentally propped up by violent expansionism and a caste system. I'd also suggest that any society that would be inclined to cavort with evil space demons may be fundamentally-flawed.

I would love to know how violent it was. We don't really have much knowledge of whether they had wars with the trolls or if they encroached on the Pandaren.

[Varodoc]

I agree N'Zoth likely knew Azshara was looking to double-cross him (it? them? what do you use for and Old God?!). It takes one to know one after all... however I wouldn't put it past any of them to have actual, B, C, D and E plans involving f*cking up Azeroth which could still come to fruition.

It is a fact that N'Zoth knew Azshara plotted behind his back as he tells the player character in his fight:

Treacherous Bargain
N'Zoth the Corruptor yells: Behold my betrayal... and yours.
Queen Azshara yells: We have a bargain, then. I will bring both fleets crashing to the ocean floor, and our champion will deliver the dagger to me.
Sylvanas Windrunner yells: And in turn, you will have the key required to free the Old God from his bonds... and leave him vulnerable.
Queen Azshara yells: You wound me, Warchief. After all, I am as dedicated to my master as you are to your subjects.
Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Indeed. Just be certain that once you have what you need, you dispose of your guests. Let none of the "heroes" escape.
Queen Azshara yells: I admire your ruthlessness, Windrunner. It seems our interests are aligned... at present.
Queen Azshara yells: Treacherous Banshee! Do you think I am blind to the darkness you seek to unleash?
N'Zoth the Corruptor yells: Only I can save this world. Yield... and serve!

Azshara was foolish, how could she possibly think that she could deceive an Old God? Is she stupid? The Old Gods are more ancient than Azshara's entire species. They are biologically smarter than Azshara, of course she's not going to outsmart the Old GOd.

Azshara was arrogant, she revealed her intentions to N'Zoth during their first meeting, when she made it clear that she would not be submissive. That's all N'Zoth needed to understand Azshara would never truly be loyal, and so it was child's play to expose her treachery. Had Azshara been smarter, she would have submitted herself to N'Zoth, to reduce the chances of being exposed. Azshara was short-sighted, a smarter character would have feigned servitude, Azshara never did. First of all, she made it clear to N'Zoth that she wanted to rule his empire. Then, She kept taunting and mocking him with a smug face even in the 8.2 trailer; but by the end of that patch, N'Zoth made her drop her smug really quickly:




People here who think Azshara will be successful are not paying attention. Azshara and Denathrius are funny, but they are destined to lose. Denathrius failed everything, he lost everything.

1) He lost his realm.
2) He lost his body.
3) He was humiliated and mocked.
4) His allies in the Maw did not give a shit about rescuing him and considered him a mere pawn.

Denathrius lost everything, Azshara will lose everything too, if she continues to play with powers she does not understand.

[Revamp Man]

Azshara is just a little mortal, while Xal'atath is an Old God, what could Azshara possibly accomplish against Xal'atath? Xal'atath is more ancient than Azshara's entire species.

Azshara is arrogant and she will meet her end if she tries messing with an Old God again. She already came very close to death when she tried to double-cross N'Zoth.

It's pretty funny to rewatch her Warbringers cutscene. Azshara thought she was sooo clever, but N'Zoth put the little mortal back in her place in BfA and reminded her who's the God and who's the drowning mortal princess.

They already have some sort of connection

Since Xal is missing a body I wonder if she'll try to take over the Naga queen

[Makorus]

The only time N'zoth won is when he stole the "killing blow" from the players.

How sad.

[Varodoc]

They already have some sort of connection

Since Xal is missing a body I wonder if she'll try to take over the Naga queen

Xal'atath already has the best body she could ask for. The body of a Thalassian High elf.

When you look at the facts in the source material, the Elves from Quel'Thalas pretty much represent the peak of mortal evolution in terms of magical capabilities.

Are we sure that Azshara's body would be better than the High Elf's body that Xal'atath currently has?

[Cheezits]

People here who think Azshara will be successful are not paying attention. Azshara and Denathrius are funny, but they are destined to lose. Denathrius failed everything, he lost everything.

1) He lost his realm.
2) He lost his body.
3) He was humiliated and mocked.
4) His allies in the Maw did not give a shit about rescuing him and considered him a mere pawn.

Denathrius lost everything, Azshara will lose everything too, if she continues to play with powers she does not understand.

I know that you are a LARPer and mostly trollpost but this is an interesting point I disagree with.

Both Azshara and Denathrius were bound to a more powerful entity that could likely kill them instantly if they didn't play nice. While Azshara probably was in a better state than N'zoth before he was free, they were still bound by their pact and there are likely some ties we don't know about that made Azshara actually want to bring N'zoth back to Azeroth. And Denathrius, while extremely powerful, still could likely have been dominated by Zovaal at any moment Zovaal needed him to behave.

The absence of both N'zoth (regenerating?) and Zovaal (likely completely erased) means that both these powerful entities don't have a boss and they can now do whatever they want. They absolutely are in better positions than before, though Denathrius losing a steady stream of anima to eat is probably a net negative. But he still has the Nathrezim placed in every cosmic realm and allied to him even if he lost his Venthyr thralls.

tl;dr Azshara and Denny are in better places than before we killed them and their leaders the first time.

[Sondrelk]

I think Azshara is likely one of the people that has likely delved deep into the cosmology of the universe. She references seeking a true throne of power. She could perhaps achieve that by supplanting Azeroth or maybe she can find a way to supplant the First ones.

And ultimately, is Azshara winning bad? Like yes, she wanted to be worshipped but she also created a very advanced civilization on Azeroth with what seemed to be a high standard of living.

It's hard to say how responsible Azshara was for the Kaldorei empire. We know that she inherited what was already a quite significant empire, and that she was there for it's downfall.
Feels like most of her accomplishments as a ruler can be chalked up to her beauty causing a natural dictatorship with fanatical followers. Beyond being a powerful mage she also hasnt really been shown to be that great a leader, but rather coasting on her talents.

[Nymrohd]

It's hard to say how responsible Azshara was for the Kaldorei empire. We know that she inherited what was already a quite significant empire, and that she was there for it's downfall.
Feels like most of her accomplishments as a ruler can be chalked up to her beauty causing a natural dictatorship with fanatical followers. Beyond being a powerful mage she also hasnt really been shown to be that great a leader, but rather coasting on her talents.

Wish we knew a bit about Azshara's predecessors. Was the monarchy hereditary? 'd love some info on Azshara's mother.

[Fahrad Wagner]

It's hard to say how responsible Azshara was for the Kaldorei empire. We know that she inherited what was already a quite significant empire, and that she was there for it's downfall. Feels like most of her accomplishments as a ruler can be chalked up to her beauty causing a natural dictatorship with fanatical followers. Beyond being a powerful mage she also hasnt really been shown to be that great a leader, but rather coasting on her talents.

We don't have a lot of information regarding her reign, only that it was prosperous and she became the Kaldorei Empire's most beloved monarch. I would assume before her downfall to evil ways and her pact with the legion that she participated in expanding her empire and making it florish, however I can't remember any source material detailing that further.

I do believe her qualities as a leader lie more within the fascination she inspired (and still inspires) to her people. Of legendary beauty, born with a gift for magic like no one else before her, a powerful sorceress whose power would match that of Kil'Jaeden and Sargeras as described by Illidan and Mannoroth... this has to inspire respect or fear, or maybe a mix of both. When you wield power like this, whether you are a great leader or not does not really matter anymore because (as you said) it will draw/consolidate the fanatical followers and instaure you as ruler. I think to her naga, she's more of a Goddess than a Queen.

[Varodoc]

I know that you are a LARPer and mostly trollpost but this is an interesting point I disagree with.

Both Azshara and Denathrius were bound to a more powerful entity that could likely kill them instantly if they didn't play nice. While Azshara probably was in a better state than N'zoth before he was free, they were still bound by their pact and there are likely some ties we don't know about that made Azshara actually want to bring N'zoth back to Azeroth. And Denathrius, while extremely powerful, still could likely have been dominated by Zovaal at any moment Zovaal needed him to behave.

The absence of both N'zoth (regenerating?) and Zovaal (likely completely erased) means that both these powerful entities don't have a boss and they can now do whatever they want. They absolutely are in better positions than before, though Denathrius losing a steady stream of anima to eat is probably a net negative. But he still has the Nathrezim placed in every cosmic realm and allied to him even if he lost his Venthyr thralls.

tl;dr Azshara and Denny are in better places than before we killed them and their leaders the first time.

Did we play the same expansion? Denathrius absolutely did not need to team up with the Jailer, it was the Jailer who needed Denathrius. Denathrius funnelled all of Revendreth's sinful anima into the Maw, greatly boosting it in size and power, and he also gave away his Sigil for free. If Denathrius never did any of that, the Jailer would lack massive boost from Revendreth and also he would not get one of the Sigils for free, which means that he would either have to invade Revendreth somehow, or the path to Zereth Mortis would be locked to him forever.

Before teaming up with the Jailer, Denathrius had a body, all of Revendreth, and the trust of the other Eternal Ones.

After teaming up with the Jailer (and losing pathetically), Denathrius no longer has a body, he was humiliated and mocked, he lost 99.9% of his assets (as he no longer controls Revendreth and its inhabitants), he has 0 allies, and he's only left with a few homeless Nathrezim servants (as the Nathrezim lost their base of operations Nathreza to Illidan's actions).

Absolutely nothing was a success for Denathrius. Even if, by miracle, the few Nathrezim left are able to free him from the blade, he'll have no base, no armies, no allies, nothing. He is beaten and humiliated.

As for Azshara, she did nothing but play her role in N'Zoth's grand scheme. N'Zoth no longer has any use for her, so she can do whatever she wants (with the few minions she has left after her legions and greatest minions were slaughtered by the players in 8.2). Azshara and her Naga Empire have been decimated and defeated, but they have fullfilled their purpose to the Old God, and so they are discarded by N'Zoth, like toys that have outlived their usefulness.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Xal'atath already has the best body she could ask for. The body of a Thalassian High elf.

When you look at the facts in the source material, the Elves from Quel'Thalas pretty much represent the peak of mortal evolution in terms of magical capabilities.

Are we sure that Azshara's body would be better than the High Elf's body that Xal'atath currently has?

Jiana has canonically been the strongest mortal mage since WC3, beyond her though there are the guardians who while not using there own power was able to house more power then any other magic user on Azeroth and we’re For the most part human, then we have the Eradar who had Archimonde who was more Powerful then any sole mortal and finally high Bourne with Azshara thought to be on par with archamonde.

The high/blood/void elfs have never had any one close to peak magical capability’s.