The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Jiana has canonically been the strongest mortal mage since WC3, beyond her though there are the guardians who while not using there own power was able to house more power then any other magic user on Azeroth and we’re For the most part human, then we have the Eradar who had Archimonde who was more Powerful then any sole mortal and finally high Bourne with Azshara thought to be on par with archamonde.

The high/blood/void elfs have never had any one close to peak magical capability’s.

Is Jaina really supposed to be stronger than Aegwynn (even base Aegwynn without Guardian powers who nearly won against Guardian-empowered, Sargeras-possesed Medivh simply on pure skill)? Let alone Azshara? And Azshara would be the strongest simply because of feats; she kept a tidal wave that washed away a continent still for several moments when Jaina would have needed the Focusing Iris to produce one strong enough to hit just Orgrimmar.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Is Jaina really supposed to be stronger than Aegwynn (even base Aegwynn without Guardian powers who nearly won against Guardian-empowered, Sargeras-possesed Medivh simply on pure skill)? Let alone Azshara? And Azshara would be the strongest simply because of feats; she kept a tidal wave that washed away a continent still for several moments when Jaina would have needed the Focusing Iris to produce one strong enough to hit just Orgrimmar.

Ya she’s stronger then Aegwynn, likely less skilled though, and Azshara isn’t a mortal but would obviously be stronger then Jaina when she was one.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

We don't have a lot of information regarding her reign, only that it was prosperous and she became the Kaldorei Empire's most beloved monarch. I would assume before her downfall to evil ways and her pact with the legion that she participated in expanding her empire and making it florish, however I can't remember any source material detailing that further.

I do believe her qualities as a leader lie more within the fascination she inspired (and still inspires) to her people. Of legendary beauty, born with a gift for magic like no one else before her, a powerful sorceress whose power would match that of Kil'Jaeden and Sargeras as described by Illidan and Mannoroth... this has to inspire respect or fear, or maybe a mix of both. When you wield power like this, whether you are a great leader or not does not really matter anymore because (as you said) it will draw/consolidate the fanatical followers and instaure you as ruler. I think to her naga, she's more of a Goddess than a Queen.

I feel that the latter observation is more likely—I don't think making her into a villainous Mary Sue, whose capacities are so extensive that it's impossible to really consider her a villain, would do any good. I prefer Azshara as something of an exceptionally powerful cult leader or charismatic despot. Although she's certainly extraordinarily powerful, she's still ultimately a fairly petty person whose primary motivation is satisfying her own narcissistic tendencies. She was never really a good leader, just an exceptionally inspiring one. Think of Adolf Hitler—his leadership wasn't actually exceptionally competent, and much of what he did to reinvigorate Germany was really predicated on a giant Ponzi Scheme. However, his charisma was such that he was able to override people's common sense and intelligence, reducing them to frothing, obsessive hordes devoid of basic morality.

Ultimately, I don't think she should be a good leader, or even have a sustainable or smart idea about what the future should be like. What she should be is someone who is disturbingly inspiring, and capable of producing results in leading people to abandon their better sense. She's a demagogue, albeit one whose malfeasance is bolstered by magic and real talent.

[Catastrophy349]

Bravo to Blizzard on the timing between 10.0.7 and 10.1. 6 weeks between the two patches. 6 Zskera Vaults to explore. 6 sets of "new quests" each week on the Forbidden Reach. The new quests this week (saving Dracthyr) are interesting. Really excited for the remaining week's content leading into 10.1!

[Revamp Man]

Xal'atath already has the best body she could ask for. The body of a Thalassian High elf.

When you look at the facts in the source material, the Elves from Quel'Thalas pretty much represent the peak of mortal evolution in terms of magical capabilities.

Are we sure that Azshara's body would be better than the High Elf's body that Xal'atath currently has?

That's not a real body iirc it's just a creation of her to be perceived but yes I think the body of the single strongest mage on the planet is better

[draugril]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

[Eeram]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

omg these guys so funny

[Houle]

Is Jaina really supposed to be stronger than Aegwynn (even base Aegwynn without Guardian powers who nearly won against Guardian-empowered, Sargeras-possesed Medivh simply on pure skill)? Let alone Azshara? And Azshara would be the strongest simply because of feats; she kept a tidal wave that washed away a continent still for several moments when Jaina would have needed the Focusing Iris to produce one strong enough to hit just Orgrimmar.

To be fair tho, Azsharah was probably still juiced up by the leftover Well of Eternity powers when she did that, considering she basically bathed in the stuff for years.

[Hitei]

To be fair tho, Azsharah was probably still juiced up by the leftover Well of Eternity powers when she did that, considering she basically bathed in the stuff for years.

Every Highborne sorcerer was, none of them were even remotely close to the skill, precision and power level that Azshara was at. I agree that it's difficult to differentiate what influence the well had (the well is what made them Night Elves in the first place, after all), but I don't think we can write off what she did at the Sundering as being the Well.

I think if we're gonna have a discussion involving Aegwynn especially, it feels silly to nitpick that Azshara probably gained strength from prolonged exposure to the Well.

[Luck4]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

This never gets old, and yet I still fall for it...

[Trazzle]

Curious thing to find some Azurite in this weeks vault. Wonder if it’ll reenter the narrative in some way.

[Alanar]

While yeah, many champions do different things, the main ordeal is that we, as the players, are canonical to the events of the raids and whatnot, and while not EVERY champion may be the same, there is 100% at least 1 guy that's canonically been there since Classic lmaooo

A lot of the time, we are the same guys, tho sometimes there are differences

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Her plans were ass bro lmaooo

She survived in the end, guess she had the last laugh. Good one.

[Nymrohd]

She survived in the end, guess she had the last laugh. Good one.

Plus she had one of the few boss encounters where we actually lost. Sure we beat her but her goal for that encounter was complete first like the dragonchicken this patch.

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I feel that the latter observation is more likely—I don't think making her into a villainous Mary Sue, whose capacities are so extensive that it's impossible to really consider her a villain, would do any good. I prefer Azshara as something of an exceptionally powerful cult leader or charismatic despot. Although she's certainly extraordinarily powerful, she's still ultimately a fairly petty person whose primary motivation is satisfying her own narcissistic tendencies. She was never really a good leader, just an exceptionally inspiring one. Think of Adolf Hitler—his leadership wasn't actually exceptionally competent, and much of what he did to reinvigorate Germany was really predicated on a giant Ponzi Scheme. However, his charisma was such that he was able to override people's common sense and intelligence, reducing them to frothing, obsessive hordes devoid of basic morality.

Ultimately, I don't think she should be a good leader, or even have a sustainable or smart idea about what the future should be like. What she should be is someone who is disturbingly inspiring, and capable of producing results in leading people to abandon their better sense. She's a demagogue, albeit one whose malfeasance is bolstered by magic and real talent.

I think she values having a succesful and happy empire not because she cares about people but because it is part of her vanity. There is no benevolence in her actions but Azshara does not want to rule over hovels from a palace, she wants to rule over palaces from a grander palace. She did not seem impressed by N'zoth after all, she was impressed by Nyalotha.

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Bravo to Blizzard on the timing between 10.0.7 and 10.1. 6 weeks between the two patches. 6 Zskera Vaults to explore. 6 sets of "new quests" each week on the Forbidden Reach. The new quests this week (saving Dracthyr) are interesting. Really excited for the remaining week's content leading into 10.1!

Yeah the pacing is great. My one concern is I am not sure I'll reach exalted with the dracthyr faction on time.

[Alanar]

Plus she had one of the few boss encounters where we actually lost. Sure we beat her but her goal for that encounter was complete.

This is actually true and it was clear from the get go, she didnt care for n zoth. If she just had died(she gave him 2 options), N zoth would probably be still stuck there. Sure, its hard to know if her plans on the true throne was something she came up afterwards or before all of this, but I cant say her plans sucked. Both denathrius and Azshara completed their tasks and both survived.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I think she values having a succesful and happy empire not because she cares about people but because it is part of her vanity. There is no benevolence in her actions but Azshara does not want to rule over hovels from a palace, she wants to rule over palaces from a grander palace. She did not seem impressed by N'zoth after all, she was impressed by Nyalotha.

I suppose that's not strictly a poor analysis from a purely Watsonian perspective—if I were to be wholly honest, my concern teeters somewhat on the purely Doylist. I do fear that leaning too hard into the idea of some kind of enlightened self-interest diminishing any utilitarian outcome for her villainy would be a very quick way to lob an otherwise-tolerable character into a growing bin of villainous Mary Sue-type characters alongside Sylvanas. I could certainly see the benefit in establishing that her regime has its benefits, drawing from how authoritarian regimes are uniquely inclined to get things done and evil empires are uniquely inclined to bring a great deal of innovation in their conquests, and I think that much could be plenty interesting to emphasize to avoid her from going in the opposite direction and becoming a one-dimensional conqueror with a slightly more entertaining personality than most, but I definitely think that getting too carried away with making her rule out to have too many benefits, it would become very insufferable very quickly.

[Nymrohd]

This is actually true and it was clear from the get go, she didnt care for n zoth. If she just had died(she gave him 2 options), N zoth would probably be still stuck there. Sure, its hard to know if her plans on the true throne was something she came up afterwards or before all of this, but I cant say her plans sucked. Both denathrius and Azshara completed their tasks and both survived.

See we get all this cosmology stuff and my reaction is, sure those who had both time and power would have investigated the nature of reality, if not from scientific and philosophical curiosity then at least out of self-interest. I assume the Pantheon knows about the First Ones; they gained entry into a Zereth and possibly others as well given their powers often cross beyond Order into Light and Life. But how about mortals like Azshara and the Eredar Triumvirate? Azshara spend centuries studying the arcane with one of the greatest sources of power at her disposal and then spend even more time in contact with an Old God; would she have not sought to learn more about reality? We see from Zovaal that what it takes to breach things is simply power; while he needed the Sigils to enter Zereth Mortis physically and reach the Sepulcher, he very much managed to tear parts of Zereth Mortis and draw them to him. So my assumption is that while Azshara is unlikely to have the full picture, she still has a much more complete picture than we do and when she references a true throne of power, it would be on a cosmic scale. Imo it would be one of three things:
a) as many have said, finding a way to replace/subsume Azeroth herself. She has had the most time and the best access to the World Soul and if Azeroth is really the key to reality, ultimate power comes from taking control of her like everyone else is trying.
b) having an incomplete understanding of the world, she may be seeking control of one of the Zereths, likely Ordos. We saw what Zovaal could do with the Sepulcher, I'd assume each Zereth has the ability to change the cosmos on a fundamental way. It makes sense for Death to be able to end the cycle and begin a new one but other Zereths could do different things; maybe Ordos can change the flow of time or change the basic rules of the physical universe while Lumen might be able to simply alter truth.
c) have a more complete understanding and seek a way to reach the First Ones

We saw in Zereth Mortis that Danuser is fumbling to replicate at least the writing style if not the essence of the Elder Scrolls Monomyth. Azshara would most definitely be the one trying to reach the Tower through Violence like Vivec did.

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I suppose that's not strictly a poor analysis from a purely Watsonian perspective—if I were to be wholly honest, my concern teeters somewhat on the purely Doylist. I do fear that leaning too hard into the idea of some kind of enlightened self-interest diminishing any utilitarian outcome for her villainy would be a very quick way to lob an otherwise-tolerable character into a growing bin of villainous Mary Sue-type characters alongside Sylvanas. I could certainly see the benefit in establishing that her regime has its benefits, drawing from how authoritarian regimes are uniquely inclined to get things done and evil empires are uniquely inclined to bring a great deal of innovation in their conquests, and I think that much could be plenty interesting to emphasize to avoid her from going in the opposite direction and becoming a one-dimensional conqueror with a slightly more entertaining personality than most, but I definitely think that getting too carried away with making her rule out to have too many benefits, it would become very insufferable very quickly.

No benefits would matter because it would ultimately be an autocracy and the deeply individualistic, very Western perception of society of the devs would paint any autocracy, no matter how benign, in the darkest of lights simply by unconscious bias.
Rather I think that Azshara's focus on magnificence lends to her aesthetic and given this is a visual medium, it improves her impact on the game rather than the story. My main complaint about 8.2 was that it was a very poor showing of both Nazjatar and Zin'ashari. We saw the latter in the Azshara short and it was gorgeous. Nazjatar absolutely had potential to be gorgeous if we actually saw any of it; you catch glimpses of the living space of the naga while swiming to the raid but otherwise we just see an outpost at the edge of their domain. We never even get a proper panoramic shot. Imo Mechagon should have been in 8.1 and Nazjatar should have had both a raid and a dungeon with the dungeon being in the underwater city itself.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

No benefits would matter because it would ultimately be an autocracy and the deeply individualistic, very Western perception of society of the devs would paint any autocracy, no matter how benign, in the darkest of lights simply by unconscious bias.
Rather I think that Azshara's focus on magnificence lends to her aesthetic and given this is a visual medium, it improves her impact on the game rather than the story. My main complaint about 8.2 was that it was a very poor showing of both Nazjatar and Zin'ashari. We saw the latter in the Azshara short and it was gorgeous. Nazjatar absolutely had potential to be gorgeous if we actually saw any of it; you catch glimpses of the living space of the naga while swiming to the raid but otherwise we just see an outpost at the edge of their domain. We never even get a proper panoramic shot. Imo Mechagon should have been in 8.1 and Nazjatar should have had both a raid and a dungeon with the dungeon being in the underwater city itself.

I disagree on the first part—I think that's sort of a nonsensical approach too reliant on the audience's own ignorance as to why they oppose something bad rather than prompting sincere opposition. It's sort of a very underhanded, visceral way of getting attention from the audience without having to try much.

Second part, I agree on that. It definitely still ought to be visually-magnificent, and Nazjatar was terribly underwhelming. Nazjatar ought've been far more extraordinary.

[Nymrohd]

I disagree on the first part—I think that's sort of a nonsensical approach too reliant on the audience's own ignorance as to why they oppose something bad rather than prompting sincere opposition. It's sort of a very underhanded, visceral way of getting attention from the audience without having to try much.

Bastion narrative straight up whipped it out and starting pissing on the Tao. So yeah, it might be nonsense but it happened already.

[Lahis]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

I can see the image without opening the link.

[Nymrohd]

I can see the image without opening the link.

It's probably is the Azshara fake expansion opening screen but it could also be Azshara ahegao.