The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Pheraz]

It is a fact that N'Zoth knew Azshara plotted behind his back as he tells the player character in his fight:




Azshara was foolish, how could she possibly think that she could deceive an Old God? Is she stupid? The Old Gods are more ancient than Azshara's entire species. They are biologically smarter than Azshara, of course she's not going to outsmart the Old GOd.

Azshara was arrogant, she revealed her intentions to N'Zoth during their first meeting, when she made it clear that she would not be submissive. That's all N'Zoth needed to understand Azshara would never truly be loyal, and so it was child's play to expose her treachery. Had Azshara been smarter, she would have submitted herself to N'Zoth, to reduce the chances of being exposed. Azshara was short-sighted, a smarter character would have feigned servitude, Azshara never did. First of all, she made it clear to N'Zoth that she wanted to rule his empire. Then, She kept taunting and mocking him with a smug face even in the 8.2 trailer; but by the end of that patch, N'Zoth made her drop her smug really quickly:




People here who think Azshara will be successful are not paying attention. Azshara and Denathrius are funny, but they are destined to lose. Denathrius failed everything, he lost everything.

1) He lost his realm.
2) He lost his body.
3) He was humiliated and mocked.
4) His allies in the Maw did not give a shit about rescuing him and considered him a mere pawn.

Denathrius lost everything, Azshara will lose everything too, if she continues to play with powers she does not understand.

Uhm, this is kind of the whole point of her character.... She made it pretty clear that she is the Queen and will never kneel or bow before anyone else.
Because she and her highborne thought they are superior to everyone else. In her megalomania she didn't see that she doomed herself and her people. Why am I explaining this? xD I guess you've read all the wow lore yourself....

[Fahrad Wagner]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

I love that I know recognise that link from a mile away. Nice try, better luck next time

[Kilpi]

Now with two Classic servers, I don't think preserving the world is an issue anymore. They could revamp the whole bloody thing.

I don't quite understand why the game should ALWAYS preserver EVERYTHING added to the game. I really think WoW could use a complete revamp of EK/Kalimdor without needing to preserve all the old zones and content in them. Also then start keeping the story in those two continents and updating the zones in those two continents as story requires.

[Nymrohd]

I don't quite understand why the game should ALWAYS preserver EVERYTHING added to the game. I really think WoW could use a complete revamp of EK/Kalimdor without needing to preserve all the old zones and content in them. Also then start keeping the story in those two continents and updating the zones in those two continents as story requires.

I do think you should be able to see the story the game has been saying from start to finish without major losses. I still don't get why certain features were removed.

[Zardas]

I don't quite understand why the game should ALWAYS preserver EVERYTHING added to the game. I really think WoW could use a complete revamp of EK/Kalimdor without needing to preserve all the old zones and content in them. Also then start keeping the story in those two continents and updating the zones in those two continents as story requires.

Because it's always better to be able to play the whole game. It's already ridiculous that the one who wants to play the story completely must play classic after Warcraft 3 before switching to retail.

[Hitei]

I don't quite understand why the game should ALWAYS preserver EVERYTHING added to the game. I really think WoW could use a complete revamp of EK/Kalimdor without needing to preserve all the old zones and content in them. Also then start keeping the story in those two continents and updating the zones in those two continents as story requires.

Because unlike say, a movie, book or traditional sequel based video game, an ongoing service-based game exists in a single current state (unless you have that preservation).

What I mean by that is that, for example:
You can go and buy and play Resident Evil 8. And then, if you want to, you can go and play 1-7 and the side games.
You can see Joker, and then if you want to see what other takes there have been on the character, you can go and watch the Dark Knight trilogy, or Batman 1989, or read comics.

But when wow "updates" a thing (at least before Zidormi began being used for phases, and Classic was released) that update wholly replaced the thing in game. You couldn't go back and play vanilla, short of private servers, because it no longer existed in playable form. It creates a disconnect, a feeling of "well I sure wish I could have done that" that doesn't really exist in most media forms, because you can always go read previous books, or watch old TV shows, or play old games.

Preserving the content allows it to continue to be experienced instead of wholly replacing it.

[Varodoc]

Plus she had one of the few boss encounters where we actually lost. Sure we beat her but her goal for that encounter was complete first like the dragonchicken this patch.

Except, you know, that her plan to backstab N'Zoth completely backfired in her face. Never mind the fact that all evidence leads to N'Zoth wanting to be stabbed, so Azshara would have doubly failed.

So the original poster was factually correct in saying that the one plan Azshara concocted was ass.

Furthermore, her success in the Eternal Palace raid is testament to N'Zoth's cunning, not Azshara's. Azshara did absolutely nothing but follow what she was told. It is N'Zoth who designed the master plan to be freed by using the Heart of Azeroth, as his spawn Il'gynoth referenced in multiple ways in the Emerald Nightmare.

Her heart is a crater, and we have filled it.

From the earth, he draws strength. Our earth. Our strength.

Its surface blazes bright, masking shadows below.

And lastly, and most prominently:

The king of diamonds has been made a pawn.

Which was echoed by Azshara herself in the raid.

Azshara literally did not do anything in the raid but follow what N'Zoth told her to do. So the entire ending of Eternal Palace raid is not a testament to Azshara's intelligence, but to N'Zoth's, as everything went according to N'Zoth's design and carefully laid-out plans.

As Azshara's plan was to free N'Zoth and then stab him, but she pathetically failed. While N'Zoth's plan was simply to be freed, and he succeeded. The Eternal Palace is N'ZOTH'S triumph, absolutely not Azshara's.

- - - Updated - - -

Uhm, this is kind of the whole point of her character.... She made it pretty clear that she is the Queen and will never kneel or bow before anyone else.
Because she and her highborne thought they are superior to everyone else. In her megalomania she didn't see that she doomed herself and her people. Why am I explaining this? xD I guess you've read all the wow lore yourself....

Indeed, I have, so I really didn't need this post.

[RahEndymion]

Indeed, I have, so I really didn't need this post.

For someone so often wrong you deal in an awful lot of absolutes.

'Her plan to stab N'zoth completely backfired in her face' - Did it? N'Zoth got stabbed, Azshara is free, Xal is in the wind. For all you know, Azshara's greatest deception may have been her betrayal to N'zoth.

You then proceed to use N'zoths manipulation of Magni as proof of.. well I'm not really sure? Everyone knows N'zoth manipulated magni, in order for Azshara to even attempt to stab him that part of the plan had to be mutual at the least.

'All evidence leads to N'zoth wanting to be stabbed' - That's quite literally a mixture of headcanon and copium. There is absolutely no evidence in the game that N'zoth wanted to be stabbed. Do I think it would make sense for the master of manipulation to engineer his own downfall? Absolutely. But other than one quote from Xal (or Ilgynoth?) re: N'zoth winning even in defeat; there is no objective indication that this is true yet. Stop masquerading your assumptions as fact it's silly.

You have a serious case of confirmation bias. The logic you use can only work in absolute isolation.

Stop overcompensating lol.

[Hellspawn]

Azshara was just lucky that we showed up in N'zoths lair and rescued her. Her arrogance is surely her biggest weakpoint.
That does not really change that she is the most powerful mage we know and we enabled this way to follow what ever plan she had. I don't think she got any loyality to N'Zoth, thats would not fit her character at all.

If N'Zoth let us stab him is something we have to see if it is true, to me it does not seem that unlikely.

[Varodoc]

Her plan to stab N'zoth completely backfired in her face' - Did it?

Yes, given how she wanted to be the one to backstab him BEFORE he could regain power and she failed.

Because of her failure, N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha, re-established his power, and almost succeeded in corrupting the World-Soul. It took a Titanic Engin's full power to fix Azshara's mess.

Azshara's greatest deception may have been her betrayal to N'zoth.

If that's her greatest "deception" then that's very sad, because she didn't hide anything from N'Zoth as he had discovered her treachery. I already proved this by quoting the exact dialogue from the raid, why are people here still under the assumption that N'Zoth didn't discover Azshara's betrayal? In 2023?

Did you guys never do the N'Zoth raid encounter, not even in LFR? There's an entire phase where N'Zoth literally shows the player that he was aware of Azshara's betrayal, she didn't deceive shit.

You then proceed to use N'zoths manipulation of Magni as proof of.. well I'm not really sure? Everyone knows N'zoth manipulated magni, in order for Azshara to even attempt to stab him that part of the plan had to be mutual at the least.

Did you not read My post? I already told you that it's proof of N'Zoth's intelligence.

'All evidence leads to N'zoth wanting to be stabbed' - That's quite literally a mixture of headcanon and copium. There is absolutely no evidence in the game that N'zoth wanted to be stabbed

Actually, there is, since N'Zoth explicitly wanted to keep the empty blade as part of his bargain with Xal'atath, and then he let Azshara keep the blade even after having her imprisoned and tortured by his servants, despite knowing her treacherous plan.

If N'Zoth didn't want to be stabbed, then explain why:

1) He explicitly demanded the empty blade from Xal'atath (despite knowing that it can be used to seal powerful Void beings, like an Old God);

2) He let Azshara, under prison and torture, keep the blade (despite knowing that Azshara wanted to stab him with it).

But other than one quote from Xal (or Ilgynoth?) re: N'zoth winning even in defeat; there is no objective indication that this is true yet. Stop masquerading your assumptions as fact it's silly.

You have a serious case of confirmation bias. The logic you use can only work in absolute isolation.

Stop overcompensating lol.

All of this is irrelevant to the simple fact (easily verifiable in the source material) that Azshara did nothing but play her role in N'Zoth's grand scheme and she failed in her stated goal to stab N'Zoth herself.

Azshara literally admits that her plans failed:

Queen Azshara says: I would have driven this blade into his foul heart myself... had you not disrupted my plans.

Azshara's plan was to stab N'Zoth right after freeing him, before he could re-establish his power in Ny'alotha. She failed pathetically as she was humiliated and almost slain by the players. While N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha unscathed (unlike what Azshara wanted). It's simple.

[huth]

You have a serious case of confirmation bias. The logic you use can only work in absolute isolation.

Stop overcompensating lol.

The other big issue is doing it backwards. Starting with the conclusion and then looking for evidence. That invariably leads to cherry picking and feeds the confirmation bias.

Though there are some strands of evidence that do suggest N'zoth deliberately let us have the dagger - for the most obvious, why didn't he just take it off Azshara after capturing her? He's certainly not one to be concerned about violating her Naga rights.
What exactly he expected us to do with it is not at all clear however. Nor is whether it worked.

[RahEndymion]

Yes, given how she wanted to be the one to backstab him BEFORE he could regain power and she failed.

Because of her failure, N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha, re-established his power, and almost succeeded in corrupting the World-Soul. It took a Titanic Engin's full power to fix Azshara's mess.



If that's her greatest "deception" then that's very sad, because she didn't hide anything from N'Zoth as he had discovered her treachery. I already proved this by quoting the exact dialogue from the raid, why are people here still under the assumption that N'Zoth didn't discover Azshara's betrayal? In 2023?

Azshara's greatest deception doesn't imply N'Zoth is the one being deceived. That's just you reading the comment through the lens of your own headcanon.

Did you guys never do the N'Zoth raid encounter, not even in LFR? There's an entire phase where N'Zoth literally shows the player that he was aware of Azshara's betrayal, she didn't deceive shit.

I've not suggested N'zoth didn't know. You need to stop unifying dissenting opinions in your mind. This isn't you vs the world and I most likely do not agree or hold the opinions of the other people you are arguing with. Again with the assumptions lol.

I have suggested that there are several alternative possibilities that are not in-line with your theory but are equally as valid in an effort to show you that your assumptions, while possible or even likely, are absolutely not objective fact and it's obnoxious and childish to pretend they are in a speculation thread. Certainty is quite literally the opposite of speculation.

Did you not read My post? I already told you that it's proof of N'Zoth's intelligence.

The intelligence of N'Zoth or Azshara is not mutually exclusive. N'Zoth being intelligent doesn't mean Azshara is not. My point however, is not to argue some anime-esque power level / brain level nonsense. My point is simply that you do not know and yet you structure all of your opinions as though you are speaking facts from a position of authority.

Actually, there is, since N'Zoth explicitly wanted to keep the empty blade as part of his bargain with Xal'atath, and then he let Azshara keep the blade even after having her imprisoned and tortured by his servants, despite knowing her treacherous plan.

If N'Zoth didn't want to be stabbed, then explain why:

1) He explicitly demanded the empty blade from Xal'atath (despite knowing that it can be used to seal powerful Void beings, like an Old God);

2) He let Azshara, under prison and torture, keep the blade (despite knowing that Azshara wanted to stab him with it).

How do you know the dagger can imprison an old god? This is head canon again. Sure, if you pay attention and played a shadow priest during Legion, it is heavily implied but in reality this is just you extrapolating that 1. Xal is an old god and 2. N'zoth is in the dagger. Neither of which are actually confirmed and said dagger is no AWOL.

All of this is irrelevant to the simple fact (easily verifiable in the source material) that Azshara did nothing but play her role in N'Zoth's grand scheme and she failed in her stated goal to stab N'Zoth herself.

Azshara literally admits that her plans failed:

Azshara's plan was to stab N'Zoth right after freeing him, before he could re-establish his power in Ny'alotha. She failed pathetically as she was humiliated and almost slain by the players. While N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha unscathed (unlike what Azshara wanted). It's simple.

You literally do not know what Azshara did and didn't do. You know what was shown. The rest is assumption.

In lore currently: N'zoth is dead and Azshara is missing. With that in mind, you're already assuming what is being shown is a misdirection in regards to the death of N'Zoth however when it comes to Azshara you refuse to countenance any notion that what you have been show could be a misdirection.

Based on your logic, there is as much of a case that Azshara and N'Zoth, being voidy best buds, worked together to deceive Sylvanas and the player characters.

My point was never that Azshara would solo N'zoth without using CDs and personally I really don't care for simping over characters. My point was simply that you do not know what you do not know and I find it incredibly asinine that you present a bunch of opinions, extrapolations and assumptions as proven fact.

For all you know, N'Zoth is dead and Azshara has been chosen by the void lords to individually supplant the weak Ren-Dorei with equally as gimmicky purple naga.

Which, based on her parting words, is probably closer to the truth than you would like to believe lol.

The other big issue is doing it backwards. Starting with the conclusion and then looking for evidence. That invariably leads to cherry picking and feeds the confirmation bias.

Though there are some strands of evidence that do suggest N'zoth deliberately let us have the dagger - for the most obvious, why didn't he just take it off Azshara after capturing her? He's certainly not one to be concerned about violating her Naga rights.
What exactly he expected us to do with it is not at all clear however. Nor is whether it worked.

Yeah, it's likely there is absolutely some shenanigans and I do not doubt N'Zoth will be back. I don't actually disagree with the potential of large parts of the theory, I just disagree with it being presented as fact.

[Grimbold21]

I know the thread's title and that's why it's permissable, but god, do some of you need to get infracted.

It's everyday with this old gods circle-jerk and clogging the thread up with who has the biggest lore epeen. Go to the lore section would you

[Varodoc]

Azshara's greatest deception doesn't imply N'Zoth is the one being deceived. That's just you reading the comment through the lens of your own headcanon.

In other words, her "greatest deception" didn't deceive the one it was meant to deceive (N'Zoth), I still fail to see how this makes Azshara look good in any way.

Failing to deceive the one you wanted to deceive is... impressive?

I've not suggested N'zoth didn't know. You need to stop unifying dissenting opinions in your mind. This isn't you vs the world and I most likely do not agree or hold the opinions of the other people you are arguing with. Again with the assumptions lol.

I have suggested that there are several alternative possibilities that are not in-line with your theory but are equally as valid in an effort to show you that your assumptions, while possible or even likely, are absolutely not objective fact and it's obnoxious and childish to pretend they are in a speculation thread. Certainty is quite literally the opposite of speculation.

If your assumption is that Azshara deceived N'Zoth, then you're just objectively wrong. Not everything is up for debate, not everything is open to speculation. We factually know Azshara did not deceive N'Zoth as N'Zoth knew of her betrayal.

The intelligence of N'Zoth or Azshara is not mutually exclusive. N'Zoth being intelligent doesn't mean Azshara is not. My point however, is not to argue some anime-esque power level / brain level nonsense. My point is simply that you do not know and yet you structure all of your opinions as though you are speaking facts from a position of authority.

I never denied Azshara is intelligent.

I denied that she's more intelligent than an Old God.

Not really such a far-fetched conclusion to get to, especially when every Old God is much more ancient and experienced than Azshara, who is *only* 10000 years old.

How do you know the dagger can imprison an old god? This is head canon again. Sure, if you pay attention and played a shadow priest during Legion, it is heavily implied but in reality this is just you extrapolating that 1. Xal is an old god and 2. N'zoth is in the dagger. Neither of which are actually confirmed and said dagger is no AWOL.

The whispers do not "suggest" Xal'atath is an Old God. They confirm it with Xal'atath literally placing herself in the same group as the other Old Gods and claiming that she is stronger than N'Zoth:

It is ironic that the weakest of us may be the ultimate victor. C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, Y'Shaarj, and... well. Only one would remain to consume the world, that was always meant to be.

You literally do not know what Azshara did and didn't do. You know what was shown. The rest is assumption.

Yes I do?

Azshara 1) failed to stab N'Zoth and this is factual 2) was defeated by the players and this is factual 3) was imprisoned and tortured by N'Zoth and this is factual 4) Conceded that her plans failed and this is factual.

In lore currently: N'zoth is dead and Azshara is missing. With that in mind, you're already assuming what is being shown is a misdirection in regards to the death of N'Zoth however when it comes to Azshara you refuse to countenance any notion that what you have been show could be a misdirection.

There is no "misdirection" with Azshara, she literally admits that she failed and I provided the quote of this.

If you still want to speculate (based on 0 evidence) that Azshara is actually a 32452IQ mastermind who succeeded, go ahead; but I don't see the point of doing this when Azshara herself admitted that her plans failed.

Based on your logic, there is as much of a case that Azshara and N'Zoth, being voidy best buds, worked together to deceive Sylvanas and the player characters.

That still plays in N'Zoth's favour so I'm not against this assumption.

My point was never that Azshara would solo N'zoth

This is not what I was talking about in the first place though.

Azshara is obviously an ant compared to an Old God in terms of power level, this isn't even worth bringing up, it's obvious.

My point was that Azshara cannot compare with Xal'atath, and I supported my point with a simple fact from the source material: another Old God, N'Zoth, completely outsmarted Azshara. And this is a fact, as Azshara literally admits that her plans against N'Zoth failed and N'Zoth reveals that he knew of Azshara's treachery.

For all you know, N'Zoth is dead and Azshara has been chosen by the void lords to individually supplant the weak Ren-Dorei with equally as gimmicky purple naga.

On the contrary, the Void Lords have been whispering directly to Alleria's head as far back as Legion, while there is no evidence they have ever been whispering to Azshara.

And the Void Lords cannot just "supplant" the Ren'dorei because the Ren'dorei are their enemies. The Void Lords do not control the Ren'dorei.

[GabrielKnight]

Funny you're all talking about Azshara. I was doing some Vaults and found this "Unknown Statuary" in one of the rooms, alongside two "Undersea Specimen". Seems like even Neltharion was interested in her.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I know the thread's title and that's why it's permissable, but god, do some of you need to get infracted.

It's everyday with this old gods circle-jerk and clogging the thread up with who has the biggest lore epeen. Go to the lore section would you

I couldn't agree more...

[RahEndymion]

...

I'm starting to think there may be no value in this exchange at all lol.

I will say this: I have, at no point, offered you my interpretation of what I believe will or has happened. I have only offered possible ways to interpret the information differently to the way you do. The fact your entire response is predicated on the assumption that I disagree with you is vindication of my point enough.

My point is simple:

You use the logic that all of the 'factual' 4 items you've listed about Azshara are undeniable truth because it was shown in game and those were Azshara's words and as such, there is absolutely no way to view them differently.

Yet, in game, N'zoth is killed, but you are willing to view that differently because reasons.

Therefore, you are not in a credible position to judge somebody else interpretation as false based on in game facts, because you are already in possession of an opinion that directly contradicts what is shown in game and told to us as factual.

As an example / exercise:

Before Azshara steps into a void portal at the end of the raid, she says (and this is entirely paraphrased) "I'm done dealing with middle men and intermediaries, I will claim the true throne' which, based on your logic suggests:

1. Azshara views N'Zoth as tedious middle man and nothing more. Fact.
2. Azshara is sufficiently confident in her ability post dealing with N'zoth that she is not afraid of his masters. Fact.
3. Azshara is very capable of void manipulation on top of her arcane prowess. Fact.
4. Azshara has always been able to move around freely and unimpeded even with N'Zoth active and released. Fact.

But I am not saying I agree with those points or that they are 'true', simply that based on the information we're given, they are factual.

Now here's the fun part: She could just be lying. As could N'Zoth. As could both of them.

For all we know, the void lords themselves may have grown tired of the old gods and funneled her the void equivalent of Zovaals anima. For all we know, N'Zoths death by the dagger may have been the final ritual for her ascension to Void Waifu. I mean honestly, given how the last few expansions have played out, she could run off with the Jinyu and Murlocs and create some interdimensional WetVoid Utopia.

Now I'm sure you won't get this far but here's the funnest part: I largely agree with you on this. I believe for the most part, your assumptions are likely the route that is intended/baited. More to the point, I genuinely hope that it is true because the way that N'Zoth was dealt with felt far from spectacular and it would actually be nice to have N'Zoth fill the lovecraftian Tzeentch analogue role that he was always written to be.

But we don't know.

[RahEndymion]

On topic now: Seafearer/Pirate/Jungle Island content in 10.2/3 or 11.0?

Between the statues in the vault, the pirate ships, nightsquall, monkey/tel'abim rare etc I feel like the likelihood we are getting a jungle island / pirate continent is pretty high.

Outside of Tel'abim I have no idea how or where this would fit in lorewise though so I'm suspicious it may be a diversion / patch content.

Any thoughts?

I want to explore more of the Twisting Nether...

I also want there to be a Pantheon of Disorder, just so we could have our own version of the Chaos Gods. The Nether is already inspired by the Warp from 40k, might as well go all in with it, ya know.

Would be cool until they get beaten down in a fist fight by 20 mortals lol

[Aucald]

This thread is not about in-depth lore discussions, much less arguments about specific points of the lore - that is what the Lore subforum is for. Take your rolling arguments there if you like, but otherwise let's drop the back-and-forth about the Void, Old Gods, or what have you, and let's refocus the discussion on speculation about upcoming patches and/or expansions.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Why wouldn't he study the Nana? They are also of N'Zoth's creation.

The Naga weren’t a thing before the isle were sealed so any interest would have had to be of the high Bourne.