The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

I would love a Sargeras fight where we kind of assist Azeroth (using Gorribal) fighting Sargeras in the background.

I don't know how exactly it would work, but that's really the only way I could see a Sargeras fight happening.

It needs to be a spectacle. Sargeras needs to be huge. And WoW does not handle direct "huge" boss fights well at all.

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These quotes are a giveaway though:


Gul'dan never worked under Illidan's command in any timeline, nor Illidan ever planed to destroy Azeroth, especially after what we learned about him in Legion.

But then, during the fight, there's no indication that it is Sargeras, while the boss spawns Soul Fragment of Azzinoth. I think it's Azzinoth rather than Sargeras.

[Nymrohd]

I would love a Sargeras fight where we kind of assist Azeroth (using Gorribal) fighting Sargeras in the background.

I don't know how exactly it would work, but that's really the only way I could see a Sargeras fight happening.

It needs to be a spectacle. Sargeras needs to be huge. And WoW does not handle direct "huge" boss fights well at all.

I'd say almost no one does. Maybe Shadow of the Colossus but the entire game was built around that idea. Quicktime events while you are running around a mountain is not good gameplay.

I'd say keep the spectacle in cinematics. Tanking someone's toenail is not particularly interesting. As a tank main, I use every way to get my tank larger just so the fights feel more reasonable (yes I refresh Vrykul's drinking helm during the fight if it's too long. There is always a moment or two of dead time). Else we end with another Madness of Deathwing fight.

[Luck4]

But then, during the fight, there's no indication that it is Sargeras, while the boss spawns Soul Fragment of Azzinoth. I think it's Azzinoth rather than Sargeras.

I don't buy it, because Azzinoth isn't connected with Gul'dan, the quote states he's Gul'dan's master. Also, Gul'dan says this before the encounter begins:

"The husk of Illidan will prove an ideal vessel for my master's glory. Sargeras will rise, and together, we will watch your world burn."
"Let the endgame begin!"

[Shadowferal]

I would rather Sargeras not be fought by players. A setting feels vast when there are things out there that are just too big to fight.

That's common sense...and you should apologize immediately!

We didn't beat the Lich King, and yeah, that should have set a trend. Some things should be dealt with by other methods rather than a beat down.

[Nymrohd]

That's common sense...and you should apologize immediately!

We didn't beat the Lich King, and yeah, that should have set a trend. Some things should be dealt with by other methods rather than a beat down.

Imo we should not have even fought Arthas. He'd be better off staying a villain for the setting for at least a few expansions more.

[Lady Atia]

This is something that probably 90% + of the WoW community didn't acknowledge to this day, and I blame Blizzard for using Illidan voice without any changes/effects to make it more noticeable.

Personally, I don't want to fight Sargeras as a titan, nor any of these cosmic monsters out there. I would rather see characters being built upon, such as Illidan/Arthas/Garrosh/Medivh/Kil'jaeden/Kel'thuzad, and then killing/defeating them afterward.

I can't see the appeal of fighting mega monster nº 76 or the fallen god nº 16, it's lame.

Villains' characters need lore, even more lore than heroes to be compelling. For instance, I think it's a shame that Blizzard didn't make Sylvanas a killable "end-of-expansion" boss, she had a lot of development leading to it, that could've saved Shadowlands, imagine if in the 9.1 cinematic instead of turning against Zovaal she instead somehow took his new superpower effectively replacing him, and then turned more malefic than him before biting the dust for good in 9.2, that could've been glorious.

No it wouldn't - leave Sylvanas alone!

[Shadowferal]

Hate to be that guy but I think we shouldn't fight Sargeras.

He shouldn't be our fight. He's the Titans' problem child.

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Imo we should not have even fought Arthas. He'd be better off staying a villain for the setting for at least a few expansions more.

I like that...I like that a lot!

[Lady Atia]

He shouldn't be our fight. He's the Titans' problem child.

You don't know how a heroes journey works right? Maybe you should watch more animes haha. Besides that, we already beat Argus, Denathrius and Zooval - any other "pantheon equivalent" character can become a future boss now.

[Nymrohd]

I like that...I like that a lot!

In a universe where I was making Warcraft, we'd have had the Cataclysm before Wrath. Why would Arthas strike the factions when they are at a strong point? At the end of TBC the factions just have limited skirmishes, their leadership has solidified with Varian returning, they have increased in power with the Draenei and Blood Elves joining, they have pacified most local threats that could keep them occupied.

Meanwhile attacking right after Cata, the factions are a mess because of the Shattering and a global faction war, the Aspects have lost their power which means a major protector of Azeroth that could have fucked Arthas up if he stepped out of Icecrown is now weak.

Blizzard was just trying to burn through the cast of WC3 to keep the WoW machine going.

[Shadowferal]

You don't know how a heroes journy works right? Maybe you should watch more animes haha. Besides that, we already beat Argus, Denathrius and Zooval - any other "pantheon equivalent" character can become a future boss now.

Shitty writing...please. Sargeras kills planets all by himself and you'd want to believe that you could fight him?
This is why I despise certain expansions.

[Lady Atia]

In a universe where I was making Warcraft, we'd have had the Cataclysm before Wrath. Why would Arthas strike the factions when they are at a strong point? At the end of TBC the factions just have limited skirmishes, their leadership has solidified with Varian returning, they have increased in power with the Draenei and Blood Elves joining, they have pacified most local threats that could keep them occupied.

Meanwhile attacking right after Cata, the factions are a mess because of the Shattering and a global faction war, the Aspects have lost their power which means a major protector of Azeroth that could have fucked Arthas up if he stepped out of Icecrown is now weak.

Blizzard was just trying to burn through the cast of WC3 to keep the WoW machine going.

Well, he attacked because he wanted strong champions for his army and he thought 'till the last that he just played with us. But I think this isn't the place to discuss "what if's", a new build is out since days and I see it barely discussed here, sadly.

[Shadowferal]

In a universe where I was making Warcraft, we'd have had the Cataclysm before Wrath. Why would Arthas strike the factions when they are at a strong point? At the end of TBC the factions just have limited skirmishes, their leadership has solidified with Varian returning, they have increased in power with the Draenei and Blood Elves joining, they have pacified most local threats that could keep them occupied.

Meanwhile attacking right after Cata, the factions are a mess because of the Shattering and a global faction war, the Aspects have lost their power which means a major protector of Azeroth that could have fucked Arthas up if he stepped out of Icecrown is now weak.

Blizzard was just trying to burn through the cast of WC3 to keep the WoW machine going.

It's not a bad argument. And from my perspective, reasons that could have stretched the expansions further, long before we went traipsing through other planets.

[Raetary]

Shitty writing...please. Sargeras kills planets all by himself and you'd want to believe that you could fight him?
This is why I despise certain expansions.

What's the issue?
When he raises his fist to smash Azeroth to bits, we just raise our pinkie and hold him at bay.
Just like Goku or something, because wow is clearly an anime according to some people here. /s

[Luck4]

No it wouldn't - leave Sylvanas alone!

Villains are also charismatic, Arthas is literally the most iconic/loved character in the whole franchise despite being a bad guy who's dead for nearly 15 years!

Meanwhile, we have Sylvanas, neither villain nor a hero, completely ruined by countless back-and-forths that made little to no sense at all, managing to aggregate a large portion of the player base to hate her character as a whole regardless of the role/path she may take in the future.

I would say that killing her could've redeemed more than keeping her alive, LMAO.

[Nymrohd]

What's the issue?
When he raises his fist to smash Azeroth to bits, we just raise our pinkie and hold him at bay.
Just like Goku or something, because wow is clearly an anime according to some people here. /s

Most anime fans I know consider the power creep of the DBZ universe one of its weakest points.

[Makorus]

I don't buy it, because Azzinoth isn't connected with Gul'dan, the quote states he's Gul'dan's master. Also, Gul'dan says this before the encounter begins:

Yeah, originally Gul'dans plan was to put Sargeras into Illidans body, I agree.

But we interrupt him in the middle of the process. It wouldn't really make much sense for it to be Sargeras considering.... that would mean he succeeded?


During the intermission into the Mythic Phase, Khadgar says

Archmage Khadgar yells: Time to return the demon hunter's soul to his body... and deny the Legion's master a host!

i.e. Illidans soul isn't in his body yet, but neither is Sargeras.

So Azzinoth sees his opportunity and takes over.

The Demon Within yells: He will... yet claim... this titan...

That's the death quote for the Demon Within, which, once again doesn't make any sense if it's not Azzinoth. Also, y'know, Azzinoth is literally the Demon Within Illidan.

[Nymrohd]

That's the death quote for the Demon Within, which, once again doesn't make any sense if it's not Azzinoth. Also, y'know, Azzinoth is literally the Demon Within Illidan.

Do we know that? We know he defeated it and grabbed his glaives but did eat his heart and consume his blood? I think that fight only ever shows up in HS. Always thought Illidan became a DH not through the usual process (which he likely pioneered) but rather when he received Sargeras' gift directly. I mean he clearly has mastered the powers of Azzinoth since he uses skills named after him in both fights but that could be a function of his warglaives that he eventually learned to use by himself.

[Makorus]

Do we know that? We know he defeated it and grabbed his glaives but did eat his heart and consume his blood? I think that fight only ever shows up in HS. Always thought Illidan became a DH not through the usual process (which he likely pioneered) but rather when he received Sargeras' gift directly. I mean he clearly has mastered the powers of Azzinoth since he uses skills named after him in both fights but that could be a function of his warglaives that he eventually learned to use by himself.

Hm, that is a good point.

Still, the Demon Within does spawn "Soul Fragments of Azzinoth", and canonically, Illidan does not have the Warglaives at that point anymore, so there is something.

[Nymrohd]

Hm, that is a good point.

Still, the Demon Within does spawn "Soul Fragments of Azzinoth", and canonically, Illidan does not have the Warglaives at that point anymore, so there is something.

Not saying it's not possible. But Illidan learning to use a power inherent to the Warglaives is not different to my Paladin learning to use Wake of Ashes after wielding the Ashbringer.

[Varodoc]

Are people here really comparing WoW to an Anime? Now I've seen it all from this place, hilarious.

WoW was never meant to be like Anime, there's a reason why the DBZ-style deaths of Deathwing and N'Zoth are pretty much universally made fun of or even hated by the community.

Besides, there's only so many raid encounters that you can resolve with a big Kamehameha before it starts to become repetitive, and both Deathwing and N'Zoth were already destroyed by a Kamehameha (the irony, like master like minion).

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In a universe where I was making Warcraft, we'd have had the Cataclysm before Wrath. Why would Arthas strike the factions when they are at a strong point? At the end of TBC the factions just have limited skirmishes, their leadership has solidified with Varian returning, they have increased in power with the Draenei and Blood Elves joining, they have pacified most local threats that could keep them occupied.

Meanwhile attacking right after Cata, the factions are a mess because of the Shattering and a global faction war, the Aspects have lost their power which means a major protector of Azeroth that could have fucked Arthas up if he stepped out of Icecrown is now weak.

Blizzard was just trying to burn through the cast of WC3 to keep the WoW machine going.

No, Cataclysm after Wrath makes sense.

The true mastermind of Cataclysm was the Old God N'Zoth, who infused Deathwing with power and commanded him to rampage across the planet. N'Zoth chose this specific time-frame because the armies of Azeroth were exhausted after the war with the Lich King. The war in TBC was not as exhausting as the war in Wrath and thus N'Zoth would not attack after TBC.

Furthermore, N'Zoth sensed the fall of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, and knew that he had to act quickly as he was running short on time. N'Zoth was concerned and that's why he began the Cataclysm. He would not be so concerned if Yogg-Saron hadn't fallen yet.

Years ago, Blizzard also toyed with the idea that the Cataclysm could have partially been caused by Yogg-Saron's defeat (since we all know that defeating the Old Gods can have destabilizing effects for the planet).