The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

Are people here really comparing WoW to an Anime? Now I've seen it all from this place, hilarious.

WoW was never meant to be like Anime, there's a reason why the DBZ-style deaths of Deathwing and N'Zoth are pretty much universally made fun of or even hated by the community.

Besides, there's only so many raid encounters that you can resolve with a big Kamehameha before it starts to become repetitive, and both Deathwing and N'Zoth were already destroyed by a Kamehameha (the irony, like master like minion).

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No, Cataclysm after Wrath makes sense.

The true mastermind of Cataclysm was the Old God N'Zoth, who infused Deathwing with power and commanded him to rampage across the planet. N'Zoth chose this specific time-frame because the armies of Azeroth were exhausted after the war with the Lich King. The war in TBC was not as exhausting as the war in Wrath and thus N'Zoth would not attack after TBC.

Furthermore, N'Zoth sensed the fall of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, and knew that he had to act quickly as he was running short on time. N'Zoth was concerned and that's why he began the Cataclysm. He would not be so concerned if Yogg-Saron hadn't fallen yet.

Years ago, Blizzard also toyed with the idea that the Cataclysm could have partially been caused by Yogg-Saron's defeat (since we all know that defeating the Old Gods can have destabilizing effects for the planet).

Honestly almost any given expansion makes sense being placed after a different expansion.
SL could have come after Legion on the basis of all the dead people. BfA could have come after MoP on the basis of escalation after SoO.

[Skildar]

These quotes are a giveaway though:

"You topple a pawn and presume to challenge its master? Such arrogance!"
"Behold the shadow of what is to come, the endless darkness that shall consume your world."

Gul'dan never worked under Illidan's command in any timeline, nor Illidan ever planed to destroy Azeroth, especially after what we learned about him in Legion.

I always understood that line of dialogue as a similar of "you are not prepared"

[Varodoc]

Honestly almost any given expansion makes sense being placed after a different expansion.
SL could have come after Legion on the basis of all the dead people. BfA could have come after MoP on the basis of escalation after SoO.

Not for Cataclysm.

For instance, TBC and WotLK could be placed anywhere. TBC was kickstarted by the Legion reopening the Dark Portal, that can happen at any moment. WotLK was kickstarted by the Lich King waking up from his slumber, that can happen at any moment.

Cataclysm needed to happen after WotLK. When the Old God N'Zoth sensed the fall of Yogg-Saron, he realized that he was the last of his kind left active, and so he began preparations for the Hour of Twilight -- leading to the return of Deathwing and the Cataclysm. This needs to happen after WotLK, as that's when Yogg-Saron is confronted and defeated.

The Chronicles go more in-depth into this. It is explicitly stated (I quote) "The Old God was certain that the champions of Azeroth would eventually seek it out and try to overwhelm it as they had done to C'Thun and Yogg-Saron"

So the Cataclysm must happen after Yogg-Saron's death, because that serves as a "wake up call" for N'Zoth. He is the last remaining Old God left active and he must start acting against the world (before Cataclysm, N'Zoth was largely passive).

Another reason why N'Zoth launched the Cataclysm after WoTLK was the death of Malygos during WotLK, which left the Blue Dragonflight leaderless and unstable, and N'Zoth's minion Deathwing conspired with Arygos to take over the dragonflight.

So, as you can see, WotLK-Cataclysm was a necessary order of events. As is Cataclysm-MoP, because what caused the mists to dissipate was the Great Cataclysm.

Legion-BfA is another necessary order of events, because the catalyst for the Fourth War is the eruption of Azerite everywhere, and this only happens after Sargeras stabs the planet; which also gives N'Zoth the resource he needs to break free (the Heart of Azeroth).

[Sondrelk]

So how long do people reckon we will have to wait before we get more class options for Dracthyr?

[Skildar]

So how long do people reckon we will have to wait before we get more class options for Dracthyr?

I honestly don't like the idea because it would mean to make them less powerful than Neltharion designed them to be

[Sondrelk]

I honestly don't like the idea because it would mean to make them less powerful than Neltharion designed them to be

Why though? Evokers would still be the best class likewise, you would just be able to have the Dracthyr do different stuff.
A Dracthyr only using Evoker abilities is kinda boring anyways. You should be able to play as a warrior dragon, or a Death Knight dragon.

[Raetary]

So how long do people reckon we will have to wait before we get more class options for Dracthyr?

I can see some classes being added to them in 10.2, at the earliest.

Other than that, not before 11.0 or beyond.

[Sondrelk]

I can see some classes being added to them in 10.2, at the earliest.

Other than that, not before 11.0 or beyond.

I was assuming they would be added in the Forbidden Reach patch. It being added in 10.0.7 kinda threw a wrench into those plans.

I just really want to change my DK to a Dracthyr. I suppose it might be a long shot given DK might be a difficult fit for Dracthyr given they were not there for neither the first or second mass ressurection by the Lich King.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

I would rather see some dragon eye etc customization for other existing races and also ability to turn into a dragon mount, something akin to night warrior eyes from bfa.

[draugril]

Why though? Evokers would still be the best class likewise, you would just be able to have the Dracthyr do different stuff.
A Dracthyr only using Evoker abilities is kinda boring anyways. You should be able to play as a warrior dragon, or a Death Knight dragon.

This is always a tricky topic. If this was a pen and paper RPG, I’d be all for dropping class restrictions entirely.

A Dracthyr Death Knight, Orc Paladin, or Tauren Warlock, to name a few examples, are all interesting concepts. However, they are interesting because they directly contradict the established cultural norm. Which is fine, if they’re an outlier. Which is acceptable with tabletop, since you control the integrity of the setting yourself.

In the MMO space, you lose that control. If you give Tauren the Warlock class, that class implicitly becomes a part of its cultural identity, as it did for Orcs. The class selection available at release said something about them, as a culture. It strongly defined who they were by defining who they were not. It told you something about the race that they couldn’t be Warlocks. Or Rogue. Or Mages. Or whatever else. That identity is chipped away at with every additional class offered. Which some people might be fine with, depending on their valuation of the setting.

The same would be true of Dracthyr. It says something about both the race and Evoker that they actively use their draconic biology and talents in combat. That implication of draconic primacy and superiority - the implication upon which their entire existence hinges - is lost the second you have them eschewing their wings and breath and draconic abilities for a sword and board. Or “lower” forms of spellcasting.

Is expanding that race/class selection worth that price? Perhaps. Your mileage may vary. Personally, though? I’d rather maintain cultural identity.

I thought that Allied Races were a great way to have our cake and eat it, too. Orc Priests. Troll Paladins. Human Shamans. All without compromising the cultural identity of the “core” races. In the case of Dracthyr, I think adding playable Drakonid is the answer.

[Sondrelk]

This is always a tricky topic. If this was a pen and paper RPG, I’d be all for dropping class restrictions entirely.

A Dracthyr Death Knight, Orc Paladin, or Tauren Warlock, to name a few examples, are all interesting concepts. However, they are interesting because they directly contradict the established cultural norm. Which is fine, if they’re an outlier. Which is acceptable with tabletop, since you control the integrity of the setting yourself.

In the MMO space, you lose that control. If you give Tauren the Warlock class, that class implicitly becomes a part of its cultural identity, as it did for Orcs. The class selection available at release said something about them, as a culture. It strongly defined who they were by defining who they were not. It told you something about the race that they couldn’t be Warlocks. Or Rogue. Or Mages. Or whatever else. That identity is chipped away at with every additional class offered. Which some people might be fine with, depending on their valuation of the setting.

The same would be true of Dracthyr. It says something about both the race and Evoker that they actively use their draconic biology and talents in combat. That implication of draconic primacy and superiority - the implication upon which their entire existence hinges - is lost the second you have them eschewing their wings and breath and draconic abilities for a sword and board. Or “lower” forms of spellcasting.

Is expanding that race/class selection worth that price? Perhaps. Your mileage may vary. Personally, though? I’d rather maintain cultural identity.

I thought that Allied Races were a great way to have our cake and eat it, too. Orc Priests. Troll Paladins. Human Shamans. All without compromising the cultural identity of the “core” races.

I have to disagree on the Dracthyr at least. We know that there are subpar Dracthyr who don't measure up to being Evokers. Realistically they would have to be something, and classes like Death Knight or Rogues do make sense.

The Dracthyr might not make sense for all classes. But they are a race of warriors, realistically they should be capable of being most of them.

[draugril]

I have to disagree on the Dracthyr at least. We know that there are subpar Dracthyr who don't measure up to being Evokers. Realistically they would have to be something, and classes like Death Knight or Rogues do make sense.

The Dracthyr might not make sense for all classes. But they are a race of warriors, realistically they should be capable of being most of them.

I think it’s the inverse for Dracthyr: you devalue the juxtaposition of failed Dracthyr with Evokers if you allow the flunkies to become playable, capable of doing everything (and possibly more) than the supposedly pinnacle Evokers. Their status as failures becomes questionable at best, and the Evoker’s status among their kin becomes completely unsupported. Which you might be fine with. And that’s okay. I’m not fine with that, though. It’s a very subjective topic.

But that’s why I prefer the Drakonid solution. We get our big, beefy dragon tanks (and Magi and whatever else), and the original vision for Dracthyr is uncompromised. It’s win-win.

[Super Dickmann]

...
In the MMO space, you lose that control. If you give Tauren the Warlock class, that class implicitly becomes a part of its cultural identity, as it did for Orcs. The class selection available at release said something about them, as a culture. It strongly defined who they were by defining who they were not. It told you something about the race that they couldn’t be Warlocks. Or Rogue. Or Mages. Or whatever else. That identity is chipped away at with every additional class offered. Which some people might be fine with, depending on their valuation of the setting.

Nothing to add here, just backing this point up. The more class restrictions are lifted without at the very least making sure that the class has some culturally specific variant, like the Zandalari do, the more the setting weakens. Night Elves became exponentially more dull after they received mages etc.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

A Dract'hryr not able to pick up a weapon and fight for its people or do something with its own prowess non evoker way is silly. I say let them be warriors/soliders.


I can see them as warriors,mages, druids, at most.

[Aucald]

Nothing to add here, just backing this point up. The more class restrictions are lifted without at the very least making sure that the class has some culturally specific variant, like the Zandalari do, the more the setting weakens. Night Elves became exponentially more dull after they received mages etc.

I'm generally all for opening things up, but I do agree there are some races that have strong lore-based reasons as to why they shouldn't have specific classes available. Draenei, given their history, shouldn't have Warlocks among them. Night Elves shouldn't have Mages (or Warlocks) given their history with the Highborne and the exile of the High Elves. Void Elves shouldn't get Paladins at any point. I'd argue the Nightborne shouldn't have Monks, either. Tauren shouldn't have either Mages or Warlocks, etc., etc.

[huth]

Nothing to add here, just backing this point up. The more class restrictions are lifted without at the very least making sure that the class has some culturally specific variant, like the Zandalari do, the more the setting weakens. Night Elves became exponentially more dull after they received mages etc.

At least regular mages does make sense for them specificially. I'd really prefer if there were racial variants for the classes though, even if they are just cosmetic.

Void Elves shouldn't get Paladins at any point.

Kaboom.

[Cheezits]

I'm generally all for opening things up, but I do agree there are some races that have strong lore-based reasons as to why they shouldn't have specific classes available. Draenei, given their history, shouldn't have Warlocks among them. Night Elves shouldn't have Mages (or Warlocks) given their history with the Highborne and the exile of the High Elves. Void Elves shouldn't get Paladins at any point. I'd argue the Nightborne shouldn't have Monks, either. Tauren shouldn't have either Mages or Warlocks, etc., etc.

I think this is easily countered by strict information that if you play one of these classes, you are considered an outlier by your society OR you are canonically a member of some offshoot culture despite being the same race. For example, Nelf Mages should've either been actual highborne or told they were seen as untrustworthy because of it. Tauren Warlocks could be Grimtotem and/or Bloodtotem (or taught by them. Etc.

Nightborne not having monks is an odd choice IMO.

Even races that "can't do a class without exploding" can still be playable by virtue of "they are doing it despite this and are super powerful because they can hold it in". Like how Holy-using Undead were treated before the lore about that was kind of ignored for a while.

[Sondrelk]

I think it’s the inverse for Dracthyr: you devalue the juxtaposition of failed Dracthyr with Evokers if you allow the flunkies to become playable, capable of doing everything (and possibly more) than the supposedly pinnacle Evokers. Their status as failures becomes questionable at best, and the Evoker’s status among their kin becomes completely unsupported. Which you might be fine with. And that’s okay. I’m not fine with that, though. It’s a very subjective topic.

But that’s why I prefer the Drakonid solution. We get our big, beefy dragon tanks (and Magi and whatever else), and the original vision for Dracthyr is uncompromised. It’s win-win.

You don't play a hypothetical genius Dracthyr who goes from Warrior to Mage at will. You play a Dracthyr who couldn't quite make it to Evoker, but still had the basic training a Dracthyr needs, which might make them capable of being the basic physical classes at least.

[Aucald]

I think this is easily countered by strict information that if you play one of these classes, you are considered an outlier by your society OR you are canonically a member of some offshoot culture despite being the same race. For example, Nelf Mages should've either been actual highborne or told they were seen as untrustworthy because of it. Tauren Warlocks could be Grimtotem and/or Bloodtotem (or taught by them. Etc.

Nightborne not having monks is an odd choice IMO.

Even races that "can't do a class without exploding" can still be playable by virtue of "they are doing it despite this and are super powerful because they can hold it in". Like how Holy-using Undead were treated before the lore about that was kind of ignored for a while.

If there were mechanisms in place that could account for such race/class pairing in terms of the game, I'd say that's possible. Night Elven Mages could be flagged as "at war" with Darnassus, or Tauren Warlocks with Mulgore - that would better approximate their own standing in terms of their race's culture.

My choice for Nightborne and Monks would be down to the fact that I would imagine the Nightborne, having been xenophobic and highly regimented in their society, would probably not jump on the Monk bandwagon so quickly (although that is admittedly a looser rationale than the above).

Void Elf Paladins would, lore-wise, be walking time bombs primed to detonate at any moment - and the rest of their existence wracked by debilitating agony. There's just no real way for that idea to work at all with any lore-based strictures in mind.

[huth]

Void Elf Paladins would, lore-wise, be walking time bombs primed to detonate at any moment - and the rest of their existence wracked by debilitating agony. There's just no real way for that idea to work at all with any lore-based strictures in mind.

I'd say they'd be more like bowling with nitroglycerine filled pins. With a time bomb, you generally set a timer for when they explode.