The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[loras]

Azerite is actually the closest we've gotten to the original variant of arcane and is yet another reason why this retcon was a poor idea. It's raw potential and like the Well of Eternity mutates and amplifies characteristics. (in the book it was introduced in anyway, in all others it's just [Magic Dust] but nevermind)

In general, I like @Sondrelk 's idea of having the gimmick be that the world's energies are inherently chaotic and it's called order magic because it uses formula and so on to impose on it. This also works as the distinction between order and arcane, with the former being the applied version of the former. Titans being Order-aligned in as much as they use arcane magic to impose the same sort of guidance and rules on all spheres, explaining their varying skillsets also sort of works to mesh it together. This does mean fel would be outright parasitic of those other elements and not merely chaotic, which meshes with how fel too can manipulate all those powers but breaks them down in the process. It works in neat paralell to the Spirit-Decay dichotomy for elemental magic.

I apparantly have worded it poorly, but that is pretty much exactly what i meant; arcane being the "raw" form, order magic being "ordered" arcane.

[Berkilak]

Y'all think this is a good idea btw?

Honestly? Not at all. A good cosmology is well-defined, consistently portrayed, and completely opaque to the "reader." They absolutely should have internal documents used to ensure that depictions of magic/death/the cosmos and so on aren't ad hoc, but the players should not be privy to that information directly. It should be up to the players to think and theorize and speculate about how it all fits together, because whatever we come up with is going to be more satisfying than anything any fictional cosmology architect could ever devise.

Laying it all out makes it mundane. It takes away the wonder. It robs us of conversations that are more than semantic quibbles. It literally sets limits on the universe and restricts the scope.

[loras]

Probably because Magic in WoW, especially from a Cosmic standpoint is still a mostly unexplored variable.

I kinda just wish Blizzard released an illustration giving us the TRUE look at the WoW Cosmology and Cosmic Hierarchy, as well as a quick run-down on magics.

Like, Blizz, just make a chart that's 100% true, so that Players can look back on it to better understand stuff or to better explain things. You can still do PoVs through different lenses and whatnot, but at least give Players a true definitive look, Blizzard. Not everyone wants to put the pieces together themselves.

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Y'all think this is a good idea btw? For Blizz to still do PoVs in lore, but to also have an official 100% rundown on the Cosmology from their site or whatnot for players to look at and use in the future for discussions?

No, that's just gonna turn into them fucking themselves over. Besides it can easily make things stale.
Let unknowns and unknowables remain unknown, or something close to it, that's part of the charm of magic.

Behind the scenes? Sure, they need to make it at least sorta coherent so as to maintain suspension of disbelief.
But they should stick to PoVs at best for us, since they really need that wiggle room. After all asking them to pretty much present a set of expanded alternate physics for magic is quite a tall order, to understate things a little.

Better to avoid the pretenses of "absolute certainties" in a system that's never going to genuinely be able to involve anything close to that.

[Super Dickmann]

Y'all think this is a good idea btw? For Blizz to still do PoVs in lore, but to also have an official 100% rundown on the Cosmology from their site or whatnot for players to look at and use in the future for discussions?

They should've never tried explaining it. By default it was going to be a post-hoc explanation to 20 years of stories without it and even if it actually worked, which it didn't, it overexplained the setting and penned them in. By virtue of how the game is written it also would (and was) going to be contradicted, so better not to bother. I generally approve of the swap to more PoV-based approaches and they should stick with it going forward.

[Cheezits]

I think reshifting Order from "Arcane" to "the power that uses Arcane to order things" was a good idea in lore, even if people don't like how Order sounds. It effectively frees up Arcane to really be the "building blocks of the universe" it is in old lore while giving the Titans more to do than just be plain jane Good Boy Gods. Also brings into question what entities like Aluneth actually are, which to Blizzard's credit is a modern WoW mystery that still hasn't been solved even while Elune gets explained.

Additionally it makes Order vs Chaos more interesting because they are two factions using the same exact power in different directions. Versus "guys using the good stuff vs bad guys using the bad stuff".

[Berkilak]

I think reshifting Order from "Arcane" to "the power that uses Arcane to order things" was a good idea in lore, even if people don't like how Order sounds. It effectively frees up Arcane to really be the "building blocks of the universe" it is in old lore while giving the Titans more to do than just be plain jane Good Boy Gods. Also brings into question what entities like Aluneth actually are, which to Blizzard's credit is a modern WoW mystery that still hasn't been solved even while Elune gets explained.

Additionally it makes Order vs Chaos more interesting because they are two factions using the same exact power in different directions. Versus "guys using the good stuff vs bad guys using the bad stuff".

That's all well and good. My issue comes from our characters having inherent knowledge of any of these distinctions.

[huth]

The terminology used to describe it?
The way the magic is differentiated within the game?

That's about as big as what we saw in Shadowlands. You're blowing this way out of proportion.

Chronicle trying to affix arcane which was all about being chaotic and was only different from fel by degrees rather than by nature prior into being the tool of Order never made much sense. It nixed arcane as a whole being corruptive and made a whole lot of plots dubious, not helped by how it was no longer a factor in luring the Legion as that's now based on the worldsoul. Dragonflight is only muddying this further by the nomenclature change which may or may not amount to anything.

You're mixing things up there. Arcane wasn't described as chaotic, just corrupting. Last i looked, that was never explicitly removed, it just doesn't get much attention anymore. And what made it dangerous was it allowing the Legion to find Azeroth, which they otherwise couldn't do. It wasn't Arcane in and of itself that made them interested in Azeroth. It was just the signal that allowed them to get there. Which naturally stopped being relevant after Legion.

You're all getting your headcanon stuck in this.

[Nathanyel]

And with 'Order magic' being a thing, it puts Arcane in this weird position.
It got stripped of its status as 'the' magic aligned with Order and now just kinda exists in this place of it being weirdly tied to the titans, but also not.

I feel the other way around, it felt weird that "Arcane" was previously shoved into an Order-aligned category, when before that (and apparently again now) it was rather a kind of 'neutral' magic, not ordered, not chaotic, not life, not death, just raw power. The energy of the Twisting Nether, the space between the worlds of reality.

Yes, the Titans use it heavily, but that to me ties into the theory that World Souls/Titans are not inherently Order-aligned. The Titans we know visited Zereth Ordis, but they weren't born there. They seeked it on their own volition and/or were invited, they chose Order as their primary alignment (with Freya also dabbling in Life)

[Berkilak]

Agreed to an extent. Sometimes things being TOO vague or mysterious can also harm a story. Look at SL, it revealed a lot, sure, but it was also very fucking vague for no reason.

Because they put all their cards on the table. Any hint or suggestion of something more was strictly that - their actual cosmological design document was contorted into a "narrative." It's weakness was not where it was vague, but where it was detailed.

I'm sure there's an alternate universe out there where they told a story in the realms of death that didn't involve constant exposition that completely demystified the setting before you could even try to immerse yourself in what should have been an inherent sense of wonder... but that's not our universe.

It's kind of funny. If they had kept their cosmology as close to their chest as they did their characterization and narrative motivation, and actually delivered us a relatable story in a cosmic setting, Shadowlands would be remembered very differently. They inverted basic storytelling tenets.

[Makorus]

The worst thing any developer can do to their fictional universe is release a "lore bible" type thing.

Name one franchise that was enriched by something like Chronicles and not outright ruined, I'll wait.

[Nightshade711]

You're mixing things up there. Arcane wasn't described as chaotic, just corrupting. Last i looked, that was never explicitly removed, it just doesn't get much attention anymore. And what made it dangerous was it allowing the Legion to find Azeroth, which they otherwise couldn't do. It wasn't Arcane in and of itself that made them interested in Azeroth. It was just the signal that allowed them to get there. Which naturally stopped being relevant after Legion.

You're all getting your headcanon stuck in this.

Arcane absolutely used to be described as chaotic.
There are even things in-game to point to this like in BC & Wotlk.

[Berkilak]

The worst thing any developer can do to their fictional universe is release a "lore bible" type thing.

Don't get me wrong - they absolutely should have a lore bible. But as you say... "release" is the cardinal sin with these documents. It should remain in-house.

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Name one franchise that was enriched by something like Chronicles and not outright ruined, I'll wait.

Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was the only one able to pull it off.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

They don't need to overexplain Magic, its Magic for a reason. The whole schools of magic and types thats fine it stretches the field. Explaining how it works? Nah not needed

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Chronicle trying to affix arcane which was all about being chaotic and was only different from fel by degrees rather than by nature prior into being the tool of Order never made much sense. It nixed arcane as a whole being corruptive and made a whole lot of plots dubious, not helped by how it was no longer a factor in luring the Legion as that's now based on the worldsoul. Dragonflight is only muddying this further by the nomenclature change which may or may not amount to anything.

I'm watering a withered plant, but one could theoretically suppose that Arcane is an innate force of nature which Order is required to subjugate. In this instance, Arcane would be something like the residual background radiation from when the Light and Void clashed to create the universe (assuming that we're not going all-in with the Zereth system), and it could be harnessed through Order, thus allowing it to strictly align with Order in spite of its inherently chaotic nature, vindicate it being a kind of pipeline to Fel magic, and keep it distinguishable from the actual Cosmic Force of Order and its products. Alternatively, Mana could be that product, whereas Arcane is the product from refining it with Order magic—it could also be harnessed by other forces to a limited extent—Death magic interacts with it to create Necromancy, for instance, or Chaos to create Fel.

Another alternative is that Arcane magic is the residue of Titans, tracing Azeroth's veins.

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Isn't the whole shtick with Arcane that you are taking inherently chaotic energies and ordering them? The corruptive aspect was that you were near the chaotic energies and that you could lose control over them, which led to Fel once you effectively gave up controlling the energies.

This could also be sensible, and would feed well into the idea of Arcane being unstable in spite of its alignment with Order.

[Berkilak]

I'm watering a withered plant,

That's how I feel whenever I get the hint of a desire to speculate about WoW lore. I don't care about the minutiae anymore. I don't care because the writers themselves showed that they don't. I can't invest passion into something that the creators themselves haven't put any of their own into.

Alternatively, I could simply be getting old and can't relate to the young folk. But I don't think it's that. I think this is the rare case where unadulterated cynicism has the right of it.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

That's how I feel whenever I get the hint of a desire to speculate about WoW lore. I don't care about the minutiae anymore. I don't care because the writers themselves showed that they don't. I can't invest passion into something that the creators themselves haven't put any of their own into.

Alternatively, I could simply be getting old and can't relate to the young folk. But I don't think it's that. I think this is the rare case where unadulterated cynicism has the right of it.

I'm in a peculiar state of superposition—on one hand, I am young, and thus eager. On the other hand, my idiotic young brain was entirely molded by Warcraft III, so I am also cynical about the prospects of WoW's future. In that spirit, I am trapped between the two, and indulge in both vicariously.

[Catastrophy349]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/scaleco...ch-10-1-332395 Let's discuss this.

[Black Rider]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/scaleco...ch-10-1-332395 Let's discuss this.

Somehow reminds me Nighthold room...
btw
did you guys see this?
https://twitter.com/Qwik/status/1645086011003916290

[Marlamin]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/scaleco...ch-10-1-332395 Let's discuss this.

Absolutely gorgeous environment design.

[Raetary]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/scaleco...ch-10-1-332395 Let's discuss this.

Definitely looks really really good.
I'm a sucker for anything floaty with dark and starry skyboxes.