The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

To be frank, any leak that doesn't mention flex 10-20 mythic raiding is a flop. I'm sorry for Ion, but that's how it is for me.

I can see why people want it but the thought of something like Mythic Rashok or Mythic Neltharion being designed with a flex 10-20 man just sounds like the worst thing ever.

People are gonna be benched regardless, because people will figure out what the optimal group size is to trivialise the fight. Why would you run M Neltharion with 20 people if you could have a way, way easier time with 10 people?

[huth]

they spelled it Aveloren...

BfA leak came from someone who completely misinterpreted most of it. That's not a major factor.

+5 levelcap on the other hand kills it for me. They only did that twice for good reason, it's a far to sudden drop in capability.

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People will just awkwardly optimize player count per encounter.

If anything, that's an immediate red flag. Flex Mythic simply doesn't work. Technically it doesn't really work for HC even, it's just not tuned tightly enough that it'd matter most of the time.

[Azalar]

I can see why people want it but the thought of something like Mythic Rashok or Mythic Neltharion being designed with a flex 10-20 man just sounds like the worst thing ever.

People are gonna be benched regardless, because people will figure out what the optimal group size is to trivialise the fight. Why would you run M Neltharion with 20 people if you could have a way, way easier time with 10 people?

As a player, that's really none of my business. It's the devs' work to make it work, really, and right now it's not working really well not even in flex NM nor HC, but ideally, it should work.

Guys will always find ways to trivialize stuff, be it with specific comps, WA or whatever. If the "less than 3% of the playerbase" dudes want fixed 20 man, that's alright, keep it like that until WF race ends and ease the logistics for the rest of the mortals after that xD

[Makorus]

As a player, that's really none of my business. It's the devs' work to make it work, really, and right now it's not working really well not even in flex NM nor HC, but ideally, it should work.

Guys will always find ways to trivialize stuff, be it with specific comps, WA or whatever. If the "less than 3% of the playerbase" dudes want fixed 20 man, that's alright, keep it like that until WF race ends and ease the logistics for the rest of the mortals after that xD

The whole appeal of Mythic is that it is tightly tuned.

Mythic Rashok was an enjoyable fight because you had so little leeway in terms of damage and healing, so you had to play perfectly while not getting hit by any mechanics. That simply would not be possible with scaling. And that's not even mentioning actual mechanics that would be either near enough impossible with certain group sizes, or cheesed.

Plus, with a 20 man group, they can safely assume that every class is in the raid, while in a 10 man group, people are either limited in what they play, or Blizzard has to assume that yeah, you wont have a DH buff.

There's no issue with logistics either. Most guilds just assume you need to have 20 people and then crumble when someone can't attend. You get 23-25 people and then rotate. Like, I am sorry, but a lot of hobbies have benches. And the good thing with WoW is that you don't physically have to sit on a bench and can do something else.

[Ilujee]

Common guys!! We need to hit 3000 pages before friday opening ceremony

[Woke it Up]

Guys I think this might be the real leak. For real.

I've been lurking considering posting that one tonight, I felt it's pretty substantial but it could be difficult to digest for people that are looking for something meatier. I think I can see how Blizzard might want to give it more time in the oven otherwise they might get roasted like with the other leak.

I do think it's sorta tubular that they are growing in that direction but I guess I'll touch grass and we'll knoll better soon. Might go back to cooking to farm some gold before the next expac is served.

[Sondrelk]

I can see why people want it but the thought of something like Mythic Rashok or Mythic Neltharion being designed with a flex 10-20 man just sounds like the worst thing ever.

People are gonna be benched regardless, because people will figure out what the optimal group size is to trivialise the fight. Why would you run M Neltharion with 20 people if you could have a way, way easier time with 10 people?

Worse still. What happens when Assault is easier with 20 people, and Rashok is best with 10? Does half the raid just get benched halfway through the raid night to ensure they have progression? Do you later have to do progression again with a suboptimal group so everyone can get geared?

[huth]

As a player, that's really none of my business. It's the devs' work to make it work, really, and right now it's not working really well not even in flex NM nor HC, but ideally, it should work.

Guys will always find ways to trivialize stuff, be it with specific comps, WA or whatever. If the "less than 3% of the playerbase" dudes want fixed 20 man, that's alright, keep it like that until WF race ends and ease the logistics for the rest of the mortals after that xD

Unless you just want boring encounters where all hits are unavoidable and the only thing that needs to be scaled is the damage they do, that's not going to happen. It's a tradeoff, and i don't believe the other option is worthwhile.

[Delever]

Yeah, you’re conflating multiple stories and connecting them to Avaloren when those stories don’t mention Avaloren at all. The legend of Nightsquall doesn’t mention Avaloren. The story of Avaloren doesn’t say anything about it being on the other side of Azeroth, or being surrounded by storms.

The ONLY thing on your list that applies to Avaloren is that some “heretics” are there and Odyn wants vengeance against them.

That’s it.




Except the majority of the ideas you listed aren’t part of the Avaloren story at all.



There isn’t enough. The only thing we have in regards to Avaloren is that a group of heretics pissed off Odyn, and Odyn wants payback. He can’t get payback because their defenses are too strong and he’s lost multiple Expeditions trying to take them down. The writer tells Odyn not to worry because the heretics will eventually off themselves in time because they’re aggressive.

That’s all we know about Avaloren. We don’t know anything about the land, the people, the culture, where it might be, if it’s hidden, etc.

The idea that we know as much about Avaloren as we did about Pandaria is a laughable argument to make.

Please enlighten us oh great one. What did we know about Pandaria before going? We had Chen stormstout in WC3. Joking references to it from random npcs and tft. There was no serious lore that we knew about Pandaria. It is true that we know nothing about avaloren other than the few stuff they are throwing the past couple months but the stuff we are getting about avaloren is a lot more serious and tied to current lore. We have gotten to a point where the game has been developing for 20 years.
It is ok to come up with new lore, places and concepts. I m not saying avaloren is necessarily the new expansion but at some point (quite possibly now) it will happen and we don't have to get an encyclopedias worth of knowledge and set up on it for it to happen. Get over it

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Common guys!! We need to hit 3000 pages before friday opening ceremony

why?

/10chars

[Woke it Up]

The best solution is allow as many players as you'd like but cap damage like with aoe caps.

[Azalar]

There's no issue with logistics either. Most guilds just assume you need to have 20 people and then crumble when someone can't attend. You get 23-25 people and then rotate. Like, I am sorry, but a lot of hobbies have benches. And the good thing with WoW is that you don't physically have to sit on a bench and can do something else.

That's kind of a cruel take, honestly.

Given the case that someone can't attend for whatever real life reason, you're left without being able to progress or play. Guilds and devs can assume whatever they like, ideally you'd want to be able to play even if someone is missing, not be sitting for 2h or log off because of that. It's very frustrating when it happens and is such an unneeded gatekeep nowadays.

Of course fixed sizes are easier to manage, but there is design space to make stuff work whether you're 10, 20, or 17, it's just not being fully explored.

[Sondrelk]

why?

/10chars

Because that is the requirement for Blizzard to add player housing and removing Transmog limitations on armor. Ion himself broke into my home and told me last night, so you know it's true!

[huth]

There's no issue with logistics either. Most guilds just assume you need to have 20 people and then crumble when someone can't attend. You get 23-25 people and then rotate. Like, I am sorry, but a lot of hobbies have benches. And the good thing with WoW is that you don't physically have to sit on a bench and can do something else.

A lot of people seem to have trouble with this. You can't have exactly 20 people. You absolutely must have more, even just to handle involuntary absences.

Any group activity is like that. The absolute minimum is what you need to do it at all, not what your target group size should be, that always has to be higher.

[Zankai27]

My Hope Cinematic to be emotional and Hyped like Battle For Azeroth, Shadowlands,

Dragonflight was most lame weak cinematic both in history of Warcraft.

Disagree; I can rewatch the Dragonflight one cuz I enjoy Tony's journey. I've literally never rewatched the SL one because I was so fucking mad the entire time. You know from the very beginning Bolvar is going to job against Sylvanas and she's gonna pull some stupid shit, and then more stupid shit happens. Hate it.

[blaatschaap]

I have a feeling at least the logo will leak today or tomorrow. This is really the time when actual physical objects, i.e. promotional materials, start getting produced for the event. You can't do that the Friday before the event, if something goes wrong you are screwed. IIRC the bastion flyer for blizzcon 2019 leaked 4 days before the event.

[Wangming]

Please enlighten us oh great one. What did we know about Pandaria before going? We had Chen stormstout in WC3. Joking references to it from random npcs and tft. There was no serious lore that we knew about Pandaria. It is true that we know nothing about avaloren other than the few stuff they are throwing the past couple months but the stuff we are getting about avaloren is a lot more serious and tied to current lore. We have gotten to a point where the game has been developing for 20 years.
It is ok to come up with new lore, places and concepts. I m not saying avaloren is necessarily the new expansion but at some point (quite possibly now) it will happen and we don't have to get an encyclopedias worth of knowledge and set up on it for it to happen. Get over it

I mean about Avaloren we know there are "some heretics" on it. With Pandaria we know there are Pandaren on it and we have seen a Pandaren in WC3. For all we know, the heretics of Avaloren could be dildos flying on bat wings. We don't fucking knooow?
And while a lot of people drew the connection to Avalon, but it is, I think, a bigger stretch than assuming a place called Pandaria inhabited by Pandaren would look a lot like China. Plus since our point of reference is pretty chill and drink beer, we could assume that would be a thing.

[Azalar]

A lot of people seem to have trouble with this. You can't have exactly 20 people. You absolutely must have more, even just to handle involuntary absences.

Any group activity is like that. The absolute minimum is what you need to do it at all, not what your target group size should be, that always has to be higher.

Yeah and that would happen too if the raid sizes were flex, except you'd have an actual player buffer in case someone misses and wouldn't be left off without a raidnight.

[huth]

That's kind of a cruel take, honestly.

No, it's simply reality and how any group activity works. Rotating is a necessity, as is a roster that is larger than the minimum group size. If you run with exactly 20 people, you will end up having to cancel a lot of raids.

I actually found it really annoying that my longtime mythic raid couldn't manage to find anybody steady who could share my role; it put a lot of pressure on me to have to always be present because there was no replacement if i wasn't.

Of course fixed sizes are easier to manage, but there is design space to make stuff work whether you're 10, 20, or 17, it's just not being fully explored.

It most certainly has been explored. The finding was just that it wasn't feasible for their goals.

I remember when Blizz used to bear the mantle of "bring the person, not the class", and right now it's quite the opposite.

Because it didn't work.

You're just listing your grievances without any consideration for why things are the way they are. Yes, it could be done differently. No, it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

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Yeah and that would happen too if the raid sizes were flex, except you'd have an actual player buffer in case someone misses and wouldn't be left off without a raidnight.

To have an actual buffer, you have more than 20 people. Flex mythic would simply mean that the buffer size is different for every boss, not that you'd suddenly have a buffer when before you didn't. If you don't have a buffer, that's a problem with your raid group, not Mythic design.

[CaptainAlk]

That's kind of a cruel take, honestly.

Given the case that someone can't attend for whatever real life reason, you're left without being able to progress or play. Guilds and devs can assume whatever they like, ideally you'd want to be able to play even if someone is missing, not be sitting for 2h or log off because of that. It's very frustrating when it happens and is such an unneeded gatekeep nowadays.

Of course fixed sizes are easier to manage, but there is design space to make stuff work whether you're 10, 20, or 17, it's just not being fully explored.

I think you are really missing the fact that flex sized mythic raiding would make it much more of a logistical nightmare than it currently is. There would be an optimal comp between 10 and 25 or 30 players on every boss which means that mythic guilds need to increase their roster even more AND that on some fights where 10 players is the easiest way, 2/3rds of the guild would sit on the bench. And not only that, class stacking would become a lot worse. And before you say thats just a tuning thing, yes that would be technically true.

But it also disregards how incredibly difficult it would be to even remotely ensure similar difficulty on different sizes while not even mentioning the fact that some mechanics just wouldnt even work. Like for example Echo P3, any involved interrupt/CC rotation on 10 man, Sylvanas P3, Jailer Blood of Azeroth etc etc etc.

And to add one last point, CE guilds have a large enough roster to handle one or even a few "real life reasons". Ive lead a CE guilds for years now and out of our hundreds and hundreds of raid nights i think we had to cancel 3? Its not as big of an issue as you make it out to be