The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Shadowferal]

Because there's no point to it other then to satisfy bloodthirsty nelf fans who quite frankly need to take a step back.

When did the "World of Warcraft" become "Turn the other Cheek?"

[Cheezits]

Ah, so the Watsonian to the Doylist. That's actually not a terrible idea, and could turn the irrevocable fucking that the First Ones gave the lore into a quasi-revocable fucking. Making them into a previous iteration of the Pantheon of Order isn't actually a terrible idea at all—it would resolve plenty of the problems their introduction entailed, and would also expand the scope of the Cosmic Forces plotline to make it less mind-numbingly idiotic, putting everything back at the point where it was semi-sensible. Unfortunately, the team presently seems set in their ways, and I highly doubt anything that makes even remote sense will reflect what future canon.

The fact that the Titans were apparently close enough to the First Ones to access their own Zereth (Ordos) and leave without causing much of a fuss already sets up that they are likely handpicked to be their successors. I don't think the similarities between the two were overt laziness, especially when the expansion immediately after (DF) has a big titan focus that points out their aesthetic similarities. Definitely seems to be on purpose.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When did the "World of Warcraft" become "Turn the other Cheek?"

Technically at launch given that all the WC3 factions made “peace” and weren’t actually at war at all in classic-tbc with the faction war only starting in wrath.

[Shadowferal]

Technically at launch given that all the WC3 factions made “peace” and weren’t actually at war at all in classic-tbc with the faction war only starting in wrath.

Sure thing Sylvanas..try harder

[Worldshaper]

Do you not know what a handful means? That’s 3 elfs out of the tens if not hundreds of thousand and one of them has never actually been apart of the new society they built post sundering.

How is it not true?

Hyjal and its surroundings have been the home for the Night elves since before they even became elves.
They are quite literally as well as figuratively from that region, and they have never ever left it.

That individual characters are born in places other than Hyjal does not change that fact.

That they are the Order Pantheon from the previous universe that got completely fucked over once Order won the cosmic war, throwing the universe into imbalance, which they now try to prevent after picking up the pieces and by, ironically, ordering the cosmic forces into different Zereth controlled systems to keep up the balance.

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Zin'Ashari was blown into the bottom of the Ocean with much of the central lands around it, Suramar casted the biggest Bubble in the history, and whatever they had on the eastern side fo Kalimdor was pretty much gone after the war.

Whatever was left from Kaldorei ancestral lands after the Sundering was mostly around Hyjal. Eldre Thalas in south was Highborne city they abandoned once they yeeted the Highborne across the new sea.

for the nights we have had since WC3 there ancestral home is the area around Hyjal with only a handful coming from Suamar.

The race as a whole might have evolved around the well but the ones who lived there manly became Naga and aren’t relevant to playable night elfs who have always lived around hyjal.

While I agree (again) that Mount Hyjal and all the surrounding forests, including Nordrassil, are important and should remain important, I wholly disagree with you guys' assertion that this is the only area of any importance in Night Elven history.

The argument I'm making is that just as the Dragons returned home to their ancestral home, so could the Night Elves. That's the context of why I'm arguing with you all on the importance of the entire Kaldorei Empire.

Ten or fifteen years ago, our idea of the Dragons was that they had a few important locations in the world. For the Red flight, it was the Ruby Dragonshrine, Vermillion Redoubt, Wyrmrest Temple and so on. For the Black, it was Blackrock Mountain and the surrounding area, parts of Outland, and so on. You get the idea. But then we were introduced to the idea that the Dragon Isles was, in fact, something they considered to be their ancestral home. Upon returning there, even after 10K years away, it still felt like their home. We found out they had a rich culture, a developed society, hell, aqueducts and cities...

Because Night Elven society spanned aross the entire known world, more or less, it not only makes sense that there is more for them out there, but also that they'd feel a deep connection upon returning there. It is likely many of the now living Night Elves were born elsewhere other than the forests around Hyjal.

So while I personally would prefer if Nordrassil became their new home, I could feasibly see a scenario in which interesting lore is developed over the coming months, making a different location make sense to us.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Sure thing Sylvanas..try harder

It’s been the lore since late TBC with the Varian comic it’s why the horde and alliance team up in wrath, they even set up trade deals.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

The fact that the Titans were apparently close enough to the First Ones to access their own Zereth (Ordos) and leave without causing much of a fuss already sets up that they are likely handpicked to be their successors. I don't think the similarities between the two were overt laziness, especially when the expansion immediately after (DF) has a big titan focus that points out their aesthetic similarities. Definitely seems to be on purpose.

I'm not of the mind that the First Ones were a terrible retread of the Titans because the writers were lazy – though they were a terrible retread of the Titans – but I'm also not going to be so quick to pretend that Blizzard had any kind of plans like the post I'm quoting. The motive of whichever writer was responsible for them is presumably that they were almost certainly trying (and failed, given that the First Ones felt like an astounding asspull to anybody with even a modicum of narrative sense) to recapture the mystique the Titans used to have, which evaporated over the course of the game up until it finally came to a head in Legion. I'd also hardly be impressed if the Titans were just the successors of the First Ones—the specific way in which they succeed them in the proposition of the original poster was what appealed to me, not the idea of the First Ones being the predecessors of the Titans somehow, because it ties into the preexisting dangers we're told about regarding the victory of any of the Cosmic Forces, and also allows us to keep the Cosmic Forces as something transcendent instead of reducing them to something even less than they already were (and don't get me wrong, the whole cosmic chart was a terrible idea to start with) because it invalidates the idea that the Cosmic Forces were specifically designed as they are by the First Ones, just that their current incarnations are a product of the victory of the First Ones in the previous Kalpa.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

While I agree (again) that Mount Hyjal and all the surrounding forests, including Nordrassil, are important and should remain important, I wholly disagree with you guys' assertion that this is the only area of any importance in Night Elven history.

The argument I'm making is that just as the Dragons returned home to their ancestral home, so could the Night Elves. That's the context of why I'm arguing with you all on the importance of the entire Kaldorei Empire.

Ten or fifteen years ago, our idea of the Dragons was that they had a few important locations in the world. For the Red flight, it was the Ruby Dragonshrine, Vermillion Redoubt, Wyrmrest Temple and so on. For the Black, it was Blackrock Mountain and the surrounding area, parts of Outland, and so on. You get the idea. But then we were introduced to the idea that the Dragon Isles was, in fact, something they considered to be their ancestral home. Upon returning there, even after 10K years away, it still felt like their home. We found out they had a rich culture, a developed society, hell, aqueducts and cities...

Because Night Elven society spanned aross the entire known world, more or less, it not only makes sense that there is more for them out there, but also that they'd feel a deep connection upon returning there. It is likely many of the now living Night Elves were born elsewhere other than the forests around Hyjal.

So while I personally would prefer if Nordrassil became their new home, I could feasibly see a scenario in which interesting lore is developed over the coming months, making a different location make sense to us.

We already had all of this addressed in legion and again night elfs and dragons are apples and oranges.

Hyjal is there ancestral home, they have never left it, they don’t want to go back to the old ways that was the blood elfs, even those born of suamar don’t want to go back and don’t like those who still live there showcased by Tyrande in legion.

[Cheezits]

Considering they haven't been mentioned in Dragonflight so far, at least to my knowledge, maybe we'll get some reveal regarding a portion of Loreth'aran (the green dragon-riding nelf city) in the Dream?

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ruins_of_Loreth%27Aran

The ruins are in Bloodmyst Isle but it would be cool to see them play a part to some serious degree here.

[Palapop]

Reading some thoughts about "Blizzard shouldn't waste funds into capitals."

Hearing something like this makes me cringe lol.

Like, for such huge company, creating 1 capital city should be no issue at all.

Or what? Creating capital city costs 1m $, 2m, 5m, 10, 20, 50, 100.....?

How many people they need to create 1 capital city like Darnassus for example?

How big was the team back then when they created whole world with so many details?

Grow up! It's their job to make it!



Its called building world and giving more diversity in story telling!

And just for the record- when I say diversity, I give 0 Fs about your sexuality/ethnicity/religion/whatever... But I care about IN GAME LORE.

Imagine if we had multiple questlines available atm. 1 would be about primalists and aspects. But we could also have HUUUUUUUUGE questline about NEs reclaiming their new home.

or Forsaken reclaiming Undercity. And cleansing it of the plague.
Or Worgens cleansing Gilneas.

we could have another drust invasion in Drustvar (due to their activity in Ardenweald...)

Or we could have another invasion of quilboars in Barrens...

Or we could have an invasion of Dreadlords in Outlands/Northrend/Draenor (since they might be trying to free Denathrius from that sword. but I still see Denathrius as creator of Nathrezim uber-bad move....)


My point is: Theres COUNTLESS opportunities to make something in game. Or to (re)build some old zones/cities.

But instead, developers spend their time on new big-bad-evil guys who have 2-3 sentences throughout whole expansion. Or they waste their time designing items that dont even belong to warcraft franchies/style (e.g. some crappy tmogs, hair colours, mounts... etc, etc, etc....)

[Worldshaper]

We already had all of this addressed in legion and again night elfs and dragons are apples and oranges.

Hyjal is there ancestral home, they have never left it, they don’t want to go back to the old ways that was the blood elfs, even those born of suamar don’t want to go back and don’t like those who still live there showcased by Tyrande in legion.

Not sure why you keep repeating this false claim.

Hyjal is not their ancestral home. Hyjal is where Cenarius dwelled, and because Malfurion was his apprentice it became important to Night Elves as well. Their ancestral home was around the Well of Eternity in the middle of ancient Kalimdor.

[Makabreska]

My point is: Theres COUNTLESS opportunities to make something in game. Or to (re)build some old zones/cities.

But instead, developers spend their time on new big-bad-evil guys who have 2-3 sentences throughout whole expansion. Or they waste their time designing items that dont even belong to warcraft franchies/style (e.g. some crappy tmogs, hair colours, mounts... etc, etc, etc....)

Your point is like, dumb? "New big-bad-evil guys", AKA raid/dungeon bosses are essential, since it's PvE content that is the cornerstone of the game. What are you suggesting? Should Blizz cut PvE content so they can rehash old capitals? And "items that don't even belong to warcraft franchise" is purely subjective. Does the jester mog not fit in WoW, despite looking pretty darn cool? Or the tier sets/weapons we get each patch? But your idea is "Yo guys, go do stuff in that zone you had since vanilla, instead of having a brand new palces!". I am defo sure players would be thrilled.

Also, the ARE going back to old zones. Battlefield Barrens in MoP, Uldir and Vale in BfA, and so on. But for some reason they are not enjoyed as any new zone they release, and Blizz gets flak each time they revamp old place for being "lazy". Weird, isn't it?

[Super Dickmann]

Night elf "bloodthirst" and "xenophobia" are complete memes. The Night Elves when they met humans and orcs were a continent-spanning empire. For the sake of beating the Legion, they sacrificed their immortality and world tree, losing Hyjal. Then, for the sake of an inexplicable, nonsensical alliance with humanity they lost their gender roles, nocturnal lifecycle and geopolitical independence. Then all their lands were contested by the orcs. Then they lost some of those in the Shattering. Then they lost their capital to the Horde and a bunch of civilians. Then they had to live on the streets, fight in a suicide army and be denied direct help for the war to take back their lands. Then their goddess fucked over their racial leader before she could kill the woman who ordered the murder and consignment to hell of most of their population.

Night Elf support of other races has been an unmitigated failure that in the span of a blink of an eye where their thousand-year lifespan was concerned turned them from masters of a big part of the world into the vestigial vassal of a human kingdom. This isn't arguable, it's just an objective fact. To reject all that to revert back to a vastly better status quo isn't backwardness, it's the only rational position anyone could take.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not sure why you keep repeating this false claim.

Hyjal is not their ancestral home. Hyjal is where Cenarius dwelled, and because Malfurion was his apprentice it became important to Night Elves as well. Their ancestral home was around the Well of Eternity in the middle of ancient Kalimdor.

Because it’s not a false claim and you just don’t know the lore or how any thing works.

Them evolving around the well doesn’t make it there one true ancestral home just like humans don’t only say they come from Africa even though that’s where they started.

Night elfs as a culture have always lived around hyjal the majority of there city’s were around hyjal and only a handful are known to come from else where.

[Worldshaper]

Because it’s not a false claim and you just don’t know the lore or how any thing works.

Them evolving around the well doesn’t make it there one true ancestral home just like humans don’t only say they come from Africa even though that’s where they started.

Night elfs as a culture have always lived around hyjal the majority of there city’s were around hyjal and only a handful are known to come from else where.

That is literally nonsense, and your suggestion that I don't know my lore is highly ironic.

I suggest you read up on Zin-Azshari and Suramar. Major cities, home to the majority of Night Elves during the height of their civilization, and birthplace of virtually all well known Night Elves.

Again, I'm not dismissing the importance of Mount Hyjal or what we now call Kalimdor. They are vital parts of Night Elven history and culture. But to call them their ancestral home, or to suggest their culture was always primarily situated around Mount Hyjal, displays a gross ignorance of the lore.

[Lahis]

While I agree (again) that Mount Hyjal and all the surrounding forests, including Nordrassil, are important and should remain important, I wholly disagree with you guys' assertion that this is the only area of any importance in Night Elven history.

The argument I'm making is that just as the Dragons returned home to their ancestral home, so could the Night Elves. That's the context of why I'm arguing with you all on the importance of the entire Kaldorei Empire.

Ten or fifteen years ago, our idea of the Dragons was that they had a few important locations in the world. For the Red flight, it was the Ruby Dragonshrine, Vermillion Redoubt, Wyrmrest Temple and so on. For the Black, it was Blackrock Mountain and the surrounding area, parts of Outland, and so on. You get the idea. But then we were introduced to the idea that the Dragon Isles was, in fact, something they considered to be their ancestral home. Upon returning there, even after 10K years away, it still felt like their home. We found out they had a rich culture, a developed society, hell, aqueducts and cities...

Because Night Elven society spanned aross the entire known world, more or less, it not only makes sense that there is more for them out there, but also that they'd feel a deep connection upon returning there. It is likely many of the now living Night Elves were born elsewhere other than the forests around Hyjal.

So while I personally would prefer if Nordrassil became their new home, I could feasibly see a scenario in which interesting lore is developed over the coming months, making a different location make sense to us.

And where would this rediscovered new land with Ancient Kaldorei heartland be?

Kaldorei Empire spanned over Ancient Kalimdor. We have already the most important areas of Ancient Kalimdor available on Kalimdor, Northrend, EK, Pandaria, Broken Isles and Zandalar. The heart of their Civilization was sunk into the sea. After the explosion, Kaldorei settled on norht end of Modern Kalimdor, and abandoned pretty much anything else. Hyjal is and has been centre of their culture since Sundering.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

A revamp of Mount Hyjal would be fine. Execution of it matters when it comes to old zones though. Also umm I am not not of the opinion that we should never revamp old places. As I said above its how they do it that matters, and that they don't rely on it.

[Lahis]

That is literally nonsense, and your suggestion that I don't know my lore is highly ironic.

I suggest you read up on Zin-Azshari and Suramar. Major cities, home to the majority of Night Elves during the height of their civilization, and birthplace of virtually all well known Night Elves.

Again, I'm not dismissing the importance of Mount Hyjal or what we now call Kalimdor. They are vital parts of Night Elven history and culture. But to call them their ancestral home, or to suggest their culture was always primarily situated around Mount Hyjal, displays a gross ignorance of the lore.

Zin-Azshari was sunk into the sea, functionally destroyed and is now home to the Naga. Bit wet for Night Elf resettlement.

Suramar fared better and is still inhabited by the people who were there 10k years ago. They just aren't part of modern Kaldorei people anymore, so Kaldorei can't set up shop there either.

[Worldshaper]

And where would this rediscovered new land with Ancient Kaldorei heartland be?

Kaldorei Empire spanned over Ancient Kalimdor. We have already the most important areas of Ancient Kalimdor available on Kalimdor, Northrend, EK, Pandaria, Broken Isles and Zandalar. The heart of their Civilization was sunk into the sea. After the explosion, Kaldorei settled on norht end of Modern Kalimdor, and abandoned pretty much anything else. Hyjal is and has been centre of their culture since Sundering.

I'm not saying there will be some rediscovered piece of land, I'm just saying there could be. Just like Blizzard developed the lore around the Dragon Isles to a point where it suddenly made sense to players that the dragons were "coming home at last", they could do something similar with the Night Elves.

For all we know, we could be sitting here a month from now, going "oh crap, it makes so much sense now! Of course Tyrande takes up seat in Ladidadida-ahran, and obviously Malfurion has invited players to dwell among the barrows of Lolnassus!"

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Zin-Azshari was sunk into the sea, functionally destroyed and is now home to the Naga. Bit wet for Night Elf resettlement.

Suramar fared better and is still inhabited by the people who were there 10k years ago. They just aren't part of modern Kaldorei people anymore, so Kaldorei can't set up shop there either.

And I'm not suggesting they relocate there. I'm only bringing them up as evidence to prove my claim that Mount Hyjal, despite its importance to Night Elves, is not their ancestral home as some people seem to believe.

[Lahis]

I'm not saying there will be some rediscovered piece of land, I'm just saying there could be. Just like Blizzard developed the lore around the Dragon Isles to a point where it suddenly made sense to players that the dragons were "coming home at last", they could do something similar with the Night Elves.

For all we know, we could be sitting here a month from now, going "oh crap, it makes so much sense now! Of course Tyrande takes up seat in Ladidadida-ahran, and obviously Malfurion has invited players to dwell among the barrows of Lolnassus!"

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And I'm not suggesting they relocate there. I'm only bringing them up as evidence to prove my claim that Mount Hyjal, despite its importance to Night Elves, is not their ancestral home as some people seem to believe.

Problem is that Night Elf history is better defined than Dragons were. Asspulling Zan-Izshare as the true ancestral Night Elf capital is way bigger stretch than expanding Dragon Isles as the Dragon homeland. Before DF we only had their name and the fact that it was ancient land for dragons.