The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Bwonsamdi is an uneasy ally, doing what he pleases, one moment he enjoys laughing with you, the next he laughs about your demise.
However, I understood Talanji breaking the blood pact as her hinting that they both knew the Zandalari wouldn't accept the Loa of Death as their main deity for long.
Bwonsamdi helped defend the empire from the Blood Trolls, Mythrax and Ghuun, and got his due for that, but essentially, he was a Winston Churchill, not loved but useful, elected to win the war, then immediately removed from office after.

Bwonsamdi is probably among the people who have the most to gain from the Shadowlands lore reaching the ears of civilians. He protected the other loa. He saved the souls of trolls from the Maw. He defeated Muez'hala who caused the entire mess in the first place.

I know I may be alone with this but Talanji should find a way to pick Torcali, the Loa of Bounty who protects the harvest and guards the land as her patron. PLus triceratops is the coolest dinosaur.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

that's my headcanon, but it's baffling that such a low-hanging fruit was completely missed. like, there's even an existing juxtaposition between the visible and dark sides of the moon - yes, build on it! Maiev was hidden from view for millenia, just like the dark side.
it's almost funny that they introduced the duality quite recently with the warden set and the trading post cat. but not between the sides of the moon or faces of the Goddess - between sun and moon instead, as if night elves were tauren. sad!

Overall, it's rather a poor decision, but hardly atypical given that the Night Elven experiencing has been a consistent shafting in every release after WarCraft III. Say what you want about the Forsaken, but they weren't entirely, irrevocably derailed from the very start of the MMO.

re: Rastakhan
i always thought of the guy as the borderline incompetent, blind yet still glorious monarch. this image was based upon a mention of him during 5.2, "king of a crooked throne". you may think he was wasted as a character, but his last months and death were consistent with his previous portrayal. i don't understand why is he so lamented - just because Talanji seems lame or do you know something i don't?

Oh, I totally agree with you. Rastakhan was a borderline-moronic kakistrocrat in MoP—for me, it's mainly more "anti-Talanji" than "pro-Rastakhan". Honestly, were it up to me from the get-go, I'd have Zul be a perfectly non-villainous technocrat being consistently ignored by his incompetent leader, and be the one to succeed Rastakhan after his incompetence catches up with him. At the risk of derailing the topic with fanon, I'd have liked to see Zul be an ally – albeit a highly untrustworthy and conniving one – and help to push Rastakhan into making a deal with Bwonsamdi in the first place after the here-unrelated Blood Troll issue became a thing. Zul would end up taken off-guard when Bwonsamdi reveals to him that the plan was to knock off the hubristic Bwonsamdi all along and replaces him with a somewhat-perturbed but ultimately relieved Zul. However, between Talanji or Rastakhan dying, I'd definitely rather Talanji—at the very least, Rastakhan had something of a personality and didn't make me want to gouge out my own fucking eyes with my thumbs every time he was on-screen.

[Lahis]

And therefore no attempts should be made to improve?

And what would make Blizzard suddenly change their methods? Only doing new stuff is more marketable.

[Shadowferal]

Blizz is zooming too fast, leaving narrative loose ends all over the place, creating superficial expansions that are simply forgettable.

[Sondrelk]

There was a serious writing shift re: Bwonsamdi going from BFA into Shadowlands's tie-ins. In BFA, Rastakhan making a deal with Bwonsamdi is very much a deal with the devil. The patronage of the kingdom isn't a minor thing and him agreeing to give his bloodline to preserve his kingdom without Talanji knowing is cast as iffy. Rastakhan isn't a tool for it, as if anything his story is about a king who's gotten too stuck in his ways getting his mojo back, but it's a choice with a high cost. Bwonsamdi doesn't mind him keeling over during their boss fight and even mocks him about it. The whole bit about life withering and dying under his purview shows is there to get across that while Bwonsamdi is an ally, he's a sketchy and ambitious one to have.

Shadows Rising makes this a lot more shallow by having Bwonsamdi be funny, but ultimately well-intentioned and drop both the death loa and the fetters on Talanji's bloodline entirely, while in SL proper he's essentially written out of the story, even if I overall like the idea of him working to topple Mueh'zala and then taking him into his torture dungeon.

Of the "young leader takes over" plot beat, Talanji is by far the most inoffensive case. She was fine in the quests, she's solid in Shadows Rising and her ascending to the throne makes sense as is the pressure she faces over it. If there's any character who got screwed it was Zul, who went from the best introduction in yonks to being a patsy for a giant tick. The whole bit about him wanting to resurrect Dazar and make him king was interesting, but completely underexplored and having that fail and only then have Zul become a giant tick worshiper would make a lot more sense. Or if I was being indulgent, just not do it at all and have the Horde have their own prophet character but eh.

Sure sounds like a BfA plot to me. That entire expansion could be summed up as: "Oops. Those narrative consequences are far too heavy for our cool setup"

- - - Updated - - -

Blizz is zooming too fast, leaving narrative loose ends all over the place, creating superficial expansions that are simply forgettable.

I'll happily take a lighthearted expansion that leaves a few plotthreads bare, than something like BfA that buckled under its own narrative weight.

[Nymrohd]

Overall, it's rather a poor decision, but hardly atypical given that the Night Elven experiencing has been a consistent shafting in every release after WarCraft III. Say what you want about the Forsaken, but they weren't entirely, irrevocably derailed from the very start of the MMO.

Plus the worst narrative crimes against the Forsaken happened in novels. The vast majority of the playerbase never saw them.

[Shadowferal]

I'll happily take a lighthearted expansion that leaves a few plotthreads bare, than something like BfA that buckled under its own narrative weight.

BFA had far too little narrative weight. It was all one note, and not much else.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Haven't seen this forum pop off like this since the announcement of Dragonflight.

I sure love a good sh*tshow... but honestly it was bound to happen, the whole topic of NE and the new tree has become quite a sensitive one. I'm not against the tree being on the Dragon Isles that being said, even though I would have preferred it to be on Kalimdor. In my opinion this also lowers the chances of a world revamp quite a bit...

[LemonDemonGirl]

Oh, I totally agree with you. Rastakhan was a borderline-moronic kakistrocrat in MoP—for me, it's mainly more "anti-Talanji" than "pro-Rastakhan". Honestly, were it up to me from the get-go, I'd have Zul be a perfectly non-villainous technocrat being consistently ignored by his incompetent leader, and be the one to succeed Rastakhan after his incompetence catches up with him. At the risk of derailing the topic with fanon, I'd have liked to see Zul be an ally – albeit a highly untrustworthy and conniving one – and help to push Rastakhan into making a deal with Bwonsamdi in the first place after the here-unrelated Blood Troll issue became a thing. Zul would end up taken off-guard when Bwonsamdi reveals to him that the plan was to knock off the hubristic Bwonsamdi all along and replaces him with a somewhat-perturbed but ultimately relieved Zul. However, between Talanji or Rastakhan dying, I'd definitely rather Talanji—at the very least, Rastakhan had something of a personality and didn't make me want to gouge out my own fucking eyes with my thumbs every time he was on-screen.

Speaking of Zul, what the hell was his problem? He pretty much just went psycho and decided that worshipping a Blood Slug and stabbing Rastakhan was the right thing to do lol

[Nymrohd]

Speaking of Zul, what the hell was his problem? He pretty much just went psycho and decided that worshipping a Blood Slug and stabbing Rastakhan was the right thing to do lol

I mean, replacing Rastakhan who was incompetent with Dazar sounds pretty much a great idea. The Ghuun part is what makes no sense.

[Makabreska]

Speaking of Zul, what the hell was his problem? He pretty much just went psycho and decided that worshipping a Blood Slug and stabbing Rastakhan was the right thing to do lol

Well, that's how Void/Fel/Light/undeath corruption stuff works. One day you are normal, the other you go full jihad. Check Deathwing (but at least this time we will got some explanation about his process).

[LemonDemonGirl]

Well, that's how Void/Fel/Light/undeath corruption stuff works. One day you are normal, the other you go full jihad. Check Deathwing (but at least this time we will got some explanation about his process).

I guess, but it happened so fast with Zul that I just think of it as shitty writing

[Makabreska]

I guess, but it happened so fast with Zul that I just think of it as shitty writing

Who knows when it all really started? His actions in Cata and MoP were highly dubious.

[Nymrohd]

Who knows when it all really started? His actions in Cata and MoP were highly dubious.

The explanation holds though. Zul foresaw Cataclysm. He was framed as trying to save his people. First he saw to help reestablish former troll kingdoms so that the Zandalari could move there in case of disaster. Then in MoP he used the agreement made with Lei'shen that gave the Zandalari righs to parts of Pandaria so he could resettle his people there. It is aggressive but it makes sense. Even trying to replace a king he considered incompetent by raising the most revered king of Zandalar and replacing Rastakhan with Dazar makes sense. The part that makes no sense is G'huun.

[Sondrelk]

The explanation holds though. Zul foresaw Cataclysm. He was framed as trying to save his people. First he saw to help reestablish former troll kingdoms so that the Zandalari could move there in case of disaster. Then in MoP he used the agreement made with Lei'shen that gave the Zandalari righs to parts of Pandaria so he could resettle his people there. It is aggressive but it makes sense. Even trying to replace a king he considered incompetent by raising the most revered king of Zandalar and replacing Rastakhan with Dazar makes sense. The part that makes no sense is G'huun.

The part that kinda ruins it is when we go to Zandalar and it looks just fine, barring Nazmir supposedly being that way because of the Cataclysm.
Zul lost most of his credibility when his entire storyline prior to that was dropped because it was inconvenient.

[Berkilak]

I'm reminded of an episode of Star Trek when the Federation set a Romulan up to commit treason and resultingly have her executed. By all accounts, she was an extremely competent leader, amenable to the alliance that was in the process of being forged. The issue? She was a true patriot. If push came to shove, she would prioritize the needs of her nation over the needs of the Federation, or even over her own needs. She could not be controlled.

Zul is that patriot. He ultimately cares about his people above all else. But instead of allowing that to position him as an antagonist naturally, they forced him to become a villain. Because WoW has never been able to do antagonists that aren't villains.

[Alanar]

Honestly I played Nazmir>Vol'dun>Zul'dazar (which I think makes the most sense as a story) so I had to see him ignore a massive threat to the north, ignore that his general was scheming against him only to come back and see him betrayed. Rastakhan was just all Charisma for sure but that's all he had. But he did make sense; heck his god behaved in the exact same way.

Idk I did it in several orders and I dont see it as the only thing he had. I mean you said he was incompetent and he wasnt aware what was happening. None of that is realy the case.

The guy was literally slacking, he needed a wake up call and he did get that. After that.. we just saw an epic come back. The only reason hes gone, is because they wanted woman of power in charge. Talanji felt forced imo. She got massive boos on blizzcon. Because people knew what was going to happen. I think many people forget that.

Ye I was one of the people looking forward to him since vanilla. Hes introduction was atleast good, but how he was portayed in mop vs bfa was just weird, especially when he starts speaking to the player in private. Almost as if what we knew was just written by zul loyalists or something.

- - - Updated - - -

The part that kinda ruins it is when we go to Zandalar and it looks just fine, barring Nazmir supposedly being that way because of the Cataclysm.
Zul lost most of his credibility when his entire storyline prior to that was dropped because it was inconvenient.

Kinda ye, as I said before the tablets we found back on IoT were outdated the moment bfa was available to us.

[huth]

I mean, replacing Rastakhan who was incompetent with Dazar sounds pretty much a great idea. The Ghuun part is what makes no sense.

But that wasn't the reason. He wanted a Dazar under his control. Not a Rastakhan that was starting to have doubts.

Do remember that Zul has an actual gift of foresight. He can pull off plans that would look like random happenstance to onlookers.
My understanding is that G'huun was the source for that gift and Zul was actually under his sway for far longer than openly shown. Likely long before even MoP.
The events of MoP are part of his plans. He just lied to his people and never actually had any intent of saving them; he just needed an army for his plans.

[Nymrohd]

The guy was literally slacking, he needed a wake up call and he did get that.

I mean slacking on the job while people plan to kill you and your daughter and place your entire kingdom under the hold of a slug is a form of incompetence.

- - - Updated - - -

The part that kinda ruins it is when we go to Zandalar and it looks just fine, barring Nazmir supposedly being that way because of the Cataclysm.
Zul lost most of his credibility when his entire storyline prior to that was dropped because it was inconvenient.

This is true. There should have been plenty of underwater ruins around Zul'dazar to drive the point home.

[Caerule]

Idk I did it in several orders and I dont see it as the only thing he had. I mean you said he was incompetent and he wasnt aware what was happening. None of that is realy the case.

The guy was literally slacking, he needed a wake up call and he did get that. After that.. we just saw an epic come back. The only reason hes gone, is because they wanted woman of power in charge. Talanji felt forced imo. She got massive boos on blizzcon. Because people knew what was going to happen. I think many people forget that.

Ye I was one of the people looking forward to him since vanilla. Hes introduction was atleast good, but how he was portayed in mop vs bfa was just weird, especially when he starts speaking to the player in private. Almost as if what we knew was just written by zul loyalists or something.

I think people are just missing the point of Rastakhan. He's an incompetent King. That's his role in the story. He is very likable, but he's also bad at his job.

He's survived 8 assassination attempts, including from his wife. The mother of your child turning against you doesn't scream competence.
The Zandalari play at greatness, whist only in control of 1/3rd of their own continent.
Every single person on his council but his daughter was a traitor.
He was manipulated by Zul, to let his army invade Pandari, and rally other Troll empires to war.
He ignored the Blood Trolls, Sethrak and Old God threat in his own land until it was too late.
Literally stabbed in the back.
He made a bad deal with Bwonsamdi. Then treated his new Loa of Kings with constant disrespect.

I love Rastakhan. Extremely likable. But if he'd been a good king, there would have been no problems to deal with in Zandalar. And his pride would have not seen him join the Horde. Nor would there have been any chance to elevate Bwonsamdi. Him being a bad king served the story well. But at the end, you can't leave a bad king in charge. And the way to rid yourself of a bad king, is by their death.

He was a fun character. I love Rastakhan, and I wish we'd gotten even more time with him. But I think it's a very mistaken view of the situation to say he's only gone to replace him with Talan'ji. I don't think anyone would be claiming this is this story was the exact same, but he had a son. This is the story of how the Zandalari, previously full of blind hubris, stuck in their ways since the glory of their once-global empire, are shown they need to find a new path. One that sees them join the Horde. And I think Rastakhan serves that story marvelously, both in his life, and his death.