The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Aeluron Lightsong]

*scribbles down* "do good thing, not bad thing". Now that's valuable feedback!

I feel like power progression wouldn't be such a heated topic if fans weren't so anal over "Being forced"(But really lack of self control) to do things ingame.

[Berkilak]

I feel like power progression wouldn't be such a heated topic if fans weren't so anal over "Being forced"(But really lack of self control) to do things ingame.

Honestly, stuff like that is just obnoxious. Like a cash shop popping up in your face every time you login with constant reminders to spend. The second I feel the hand of the developers encouraging me to do anything other than play the game in precisely the way I want to play it is the second I get annoyed. And generally, I don't do the thing I feel I'm being "forced" to do. I just don't play. Which is a shame, because I would love to play when the developers aren't tripping over their own feet when it comes to structuring a game that is otherwise inherently fun. Like Dragonflight - they got out of their own way.

Torghast is the most flagrant example of obnoxious design. Technically, you don't "need" a legendary to play. Just as you don't "need" to select talents. And don't "need" to hotkey your entire rotation from your spellbook. But I think that's an incredibly disingenuous argument to make. Torghast took a "mandatory" gameplay power system and "forced" you to do content that you may or may not enjoy to "unlock" it. For the record, I enjoyed Torghast. But even I was annoyed that I "had" to do it in order to do other content "properly."

[Nymrohd]

I feel like power progression wouldn't be such a heated topic if fans weren't so anal over "Being forced"(But really lack of self control) to do things ingame.

The devs kept chasing and rewarding challenge. Personally I believe a game engineers its own community through development to a large degree. They could have stopped trying to up the ante and we would likely all have been better for it.

[Dracullus]

What is exactly current problem with progression again? During Legion/BfA/SL we had often heated discussions, but at least I understood more or less what issue people have with game.

[Makorus]

Honestly, stuff like that is just obnoxious. Like a cash shop popping up in your face every time you login with constant reminders to spend. The second I feel the hand of the developers encouraging me to do anything other than play the game in precisely the way I want to play it is the second I get annoyed. And generally, I don't do the thing I feel I'm being "forced" to do. I just don't play. Which is a shame, because I would love to play when the developers aren't tripping over their own feet when it comes to structuring a game that is otherwise inherently fun. Like Dragonflight - they got out of their own way.

Torghast is the most flagrant example of obnoxious design. Technically, you don't "need" a legendary to play. Just as you don't "need" to select talents. And don't "need" to hotkey your entire rotation from your spellbook. But I think that's an incredibly disingenuous argument to make. Torghast took a "mandatory" gameplay power system and "forced" you to do content that you may or may not enjoy to "unlock" it. For the record, I enjoyed Torghast. But even I was annoyed that I "had" to do it in order to do other content "properly."

Yet as soon as Blizzard removed player power from it and added new cosmetics and all that to it, the actual participation took a nosedive.

Imagine if Torghast didn't have the Soul Ash associated with it, but instead had another tint of Covenant cosmetic armour and mounts.

How many people would actually do it?

Would it have been worth it to develop a whole load of different systems to make Torghast work, when you get the smallest of fraction of players actually in there?

[Nymrohd]

Yet as soon as Blizzard removed player power from it and added new cosmetics and all that to it, the actual participation took a nosedive.

Imagine if Torghast didn't have the Soul Ash associated with it, but instead had another tint of Covenant cosmetic armour and mounts.

How many people would actually do it?

Would it have been worth it to develop a whole load of different systems to make Torghast work, when you get the smallest of fraction of players actually in there?

The crazy thing is that instead of forcing it with soul ash they could have done what they said they would at Blizzcon; let it award Vault gear. Everyone who does instanced content at a decent level could simply ignore it. People who run it at a low level but have the skill to push higher solo or people who do solo stuff only would now have a progression.
Still think though that the main issue with Torghast was that it was damn boring. Extreme lack of variety. We came out of BfA when we had nine different islands with completely different biomes and an insane number of different mobs, events and rares to Torghast having about 30 different rooms and maybe two dozen different mobs and bosses

[Berkilak]

Yet as soon as Blizzard removed player power from it and added new cosmetics and all that to it, the actual participation took a nosedive.

Imagine if Torghast didn't have the Soul Ash associated with it, but instead had another tint of Covenant cosmetic armour and mounts.

How many people would actually do it?

Would it have been worth it to develop a whole load of different systems to make Torghast work, when you get the smallest of fraction of players actually in there?

What is your thesis, here? That players should not be strongarmed into doing content they otherwise have no interest in? I agree. Content should be inherently enjoyable - players should not be coerced into doing it as a prerequisite to content they actually enjoy.

And what people find enjoyable is going to vary from person to person. I find nothing wrong with developing content for a minority slice of your playerbase. As long as eventually gets a slice.

[Makorus]

What is your thesis, here? That players should not be strongarmed into doing content they otherwise have no interest in? I agree. Content should be inherently enjoyable - players should not be coerced into doing it as a prerequisite to content they actually enjoy.

And what people find enjoyable is going to vary from person to person. I find nothing wrong with developing content for a minority slice of your playerbase. As long as eventually gets a slice.

My thesis is that Blizzard is not gonna develop content that people might play. If they make content, they want it to be played by people, otherwise, it's a failed system and a waste of resources.

The reason why Blizzard keeps "forcing" people into content like Torghast/Island Expeditions through stuff like Soul Ash or Azerite is because that way, you can guarantee that people are gonna do it on a consistent basis.

Is there a better way of doing it? I honestly couldn't tell you.

[micwini]

"(Video) Developer Chat" new content preview maybe?

[Luck4]

If they make content, they want it to be played by people, otherwise, it's a failed system and a waste of resources.

If the content is only played because people are forced to do it, it's also a waste of resources because it's not fun and people will complain.

For instance, despite being fully Mythic geared 421 ilvl, I still do World Quests every week because I can choose each one I find fun, same with weekly events. I'm not forced to do World Quests that I don't appreciate because it gives AP/Azerite anymore.

Everything should work that way, for gear, people also have many options: Mythic+/PVP/Raid. Now imagine if the gear from Raid were 10-20 ilvl above everything else, there are no longer options for gear and everyone is forced to raid.

I'm ok with Borrowed Power as long there's a weekly cap and I can fill it doing whatever I want, not awful activities such as Torghast.

[Makorus]

If the content is only played because people are forced to do it, it's also a waste of resources because it's not fun and people will complain.

For instance, despite being fully Mythic geared 421 ilvl, I still do World Quests every week because I can choose each one I find fun, same with weekly events. I'm not forced to do World Quests that I don't appreciate because it gives AP/Azerite anymore.

Everything should work that way, for gear, people also have many options: Mythic+/PVP/Raid. Now imagine if the gear from Raid were 10-20 ilvl above everything else, there are no longer options for gear and everyone is forced to raid.

I'm ok with Borrowed Power as long there's a weekly cap and I can fill it doing whatever I want, not awful activities such as Torghast.

I mean, it's already like that. M+ is just so much better for gearing compared to Raiding. Heroic is just plain useless, reward-wise.

[Nymrohd]

My thesis is that Blizzard is not gonna develop content that people might play. If they make content, they want it to be played by people, otherwise, it's a failed system and a waste of resources.

The reason why Blizzard keeps "forcing" people into content like Torghast/Island Expeditions through stuff like Soul Ash or Azerite is because that way, you can guarantee that people are gonna do it on a consistent basis.

Is there a better way of doing it? I honestly couldn't tell you.

Heck it could be entirely about management control methods. If upper management judges the success of content by engagement metrics then the devs need to make sure the metrics will be good to keep their budget in place. If Torghast cost them this many dev hours and there is a minimum player engagement/$ standard, that's what they have to do to meet that number.
And while I get this may sound counterproductive, budget needs to be allocated to tasks in some manner, it cannot just be per project.

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I'm ok with Borrowed Power as long there's a weekly cap and I can fill it doing whatever I want, not awful activities such as Torghast.

A weekly cap that rolls forward! So if I could not do it one week I am not permanently behind. Just let me binge later on.

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What is exactly current problem with progression again? During Legion/BfA/SL we had often heated discussions, but at least I understood more or less what issue people have with game.

Personally I feel the 10.1 system seems fairly promising. It makes many more activities rewarding, offers a sense of progression to players focused on open world and match making, offers some progression to non-mythic raiders after they enter farm. My issues with it are that it seems needlessly complex and that I do not particularly appreciate the opportunity cost of upgrading items when a better item might be right around the corner and availability of upgrade items is not exactly that clear to me just yet. Plus it might incentivize keeping tons of items in your bags in case you want to upgrade them later which is just my nightmare. From the company that removed reforging and reduced enchants and gems significantly because they wanted us to wear items when we get them, this system is so far worse than those when it comes to making gearing complex.
One of these days when I have time I'll make a post about what I'd like to see as a reward system . . .

[Makorus]

Personally I feel the 10.1 system seems fairly promising. It makes many more activities rewarding, offers a sense of progression to players focused on open world and match making, offers some progression to non-mythic raiders after they enter farm. My issues with it are that it seems needlessly complex and that I do not particularly appreciate the opportunity cost of upgrading items when a better item might be right around the corner and availability of upgrade items is not exactly that clear to me just yet. Plus it might incentivize keeping tons of items in your bags in case you want to upgrade them later which is just my nightmare. From the company that removed reforging and reduced enchants and gems significantly because they wanted us to wear items when we get them, this system is so far worse than those when it comes to making gearing complex.
One of these days when I have time I'll make a post about what I'd like to see as a reward system . . .

The Upgrade system seems incredible, and hopefully they keep it, but I've been trying to explain it to some of my guild mates and it does seem excessively complicated. Plus, the fact that you have to replace your BIS trinket from a +2 down the line sucks a bit as well.

[Nymrohd]

The Upgrade system seems incredible, and hopefully they keep it, but I've been trying to explain it to some of my guild mates and it does seem excessively complicated. Plus, the fact that you have to replace your BIS trinket from a +2 down the line sucks a bit as well.

I get the different decisions made behind it; it forces you to grab gear from a higher difficulty instead of trying to grind it in the easiest difficulty and then upgrade it, it offers progression to all without forcing people to do content they don't want to (outside trinkets/items with cantrips from Raid/M+ as always but there will never be a good solution to that) and perhaps most importantly, it makes any drop potential valueable.
I hope that it will be much easier in practice than it is when you read through it. Fully expect some WA checklist to make sure I am not missing some type of crest.
I'd personally prefer a simpler system but I don't think Blizzard devs ever learned the concept of elegant design.

[Sondrelk]

I get the different decisions made behind it; it forces you to grab gear from a higher difficulty instead of trying to grind it in the easiest difficulty and then upgrade it, it offers progression to all without forcing people to do content they don't want to (outside trinkets/items with cantrips from Raid/M+ as always but there will never be a good solution to that) and perhaps most importantly, it makes any drop potential valueable.
I hope that it will be much easier in practice than it is when you read through it. Fully expect some WA checklist to make sure I am not missing some type of crest.
I'd personally prefer a simpler system but I don't think Blizzard devs ever learned the concept of elegant design.

I think it will feel more intuitive once you actually see it. It's never easy to explain hypothetical loot drops, and difficulties having different loot tiers with different upgrade levels without actually seeing it in practice.

The way i understood it is that you have the same system as M+, except with different tiers of upgrades, rather than what we have now with a simple 1-12 upgrade path requiring the same resource all the way through.

[Berkilak]

My thesis is that Blizzard is not gonna develop content that people might play. If they make content, they want it to be played by people, otherwise, it's a failed system and a waste of resources.

The reason why Blizzard keeps "forcing" people into content like Torghast/Island Expeditions through stuff like Soul Ash or Azerite is because that way, you can guarantee that people are gonna do it on a consistent basis.

Is there a better way of doing it? I honestly couldn't tell you.

I disagree implication in bold. It's more of spectrum than a binary pass/fail.

If content is unenjoyable and played by no one, it is a failure.
If content is enjoyable and played by some, it is a success.
If content is enjoyable and played by most, it is also a success.
If content is unenjoyable and you have to force people to play it, it is a failure regardless of how many people engage with it.

At that point, you're just cultivating antagonism and burnout in your playerbase. And we're seeing that price paid with the popularity of Dragonflight, as fantastic as it is. They burnt through so much of their dedicated playerbase by forcing them into engaging with content they had no interest in for the sake of metrics. And as they say, "A measure that becomes a target ceases to be a good measure."

[Nymrohd]

[*]Northern Kalimdor may no longer be in Night Elf control, but it is still important to them. Groups of battle-hardened elves still walk these forests, and still carry out ancient rites by the shrines they come across along the road. They still look after the denizens of the woodland, praise Elune at the root of Nordrassil, and sleep in their dens deep in the earth. But Feralas, Duskwood, and other places are also important to them. Everywhere is.

Northern Kalimdor is no less in Night Elf control than it was in vanilla

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I think it will feel more intuitive once you actually see it. It's never easy to explain hypothetical loot drops, and difficulties having different loot tiers with different upgrade levels without actually seeing it in practice.

The way i understood it is that you have the same system as M+, except with different tiers of upgrades, rather than what we have now with a simple 1-12 upgrade path requiring the same resource all the way through.

My question is, how much of this is currency and how much is items. Because the crests are probably items. And they come in fragments. And enchanted variety if you want to use them for crafting. So we are talking about a lot of bag slots.

[Sondrelk]

Northern Kalimdor is no less in Night Elf control than it was in vanilla

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My question is, how much of this is currency and how much is items. Because the crests are probably items. And they come in fragments. And enchanted variety if you want to use them for crafting. So we are talking about a lot of bag slots.

I imagine the flightstones is a currency, and the crests are actual items.
The flightstones are the thing everyone needs, and the crests i imagine will be sold if they are useless. Or given to an NPC like the useless primal infusions are currently.

[huth]

My question is, how much of this is currency and how much is items. Because the crests are probably items. And they come in fragments. And enchanted variety if you want to use them for crafting. So we are talking about a lot of bag slots.

The crests are items, though likely able to fit in the reagent back. They're used for crafting.

Flightstones are most likely currency.

[Nymrohd]

The crests are items, though likely able to fit in the reagent back. They're used for crafting.

Flightstones are most likely currency.

I guess they would be, they are enchanting reagents after all. As for flightstones it seems we will be getting them in bundle items so hopefully they will automatically become currency instead of having to be used from the bag.

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I imagine the flightstones is a currency, and the crests are actual items.
The flightstones are the thing everyone needs, and the crests i imagine will be sold if they are useless. Or given to an NPC like the useless primal infusions are currently.

Past a point you do need crests. Obviously low level crests will be useless to many players. I hope they have at least a vendor cost and you don't have to delete them manually.
As for primal infusions yeah, they are useless now but they were very useful for much of the season.