1. #4581
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    What is your thesis, here? That players should not be strongarmed into doing content they otherwise have no interest in? I agree. Content should be inherently enjoyable - players should not be coerced into doing it as a prerequisite to content they actually enjoy.

    And what people find enjoyable is going to vary from person to person. I find nothing wrong with developing content for a minority slice of your playerbase. As long as eventually gets a slice.
    My thesis is that Blizzard is not gonna develop content that people might play. If they make content, they want it to be played by people, otherwise, it's a failed system and a waste of resources.

    The reason why Blizzard keeps "forcing" people into content like Torghast/Island Expeditions through stuff like Soul Ash or Azerite is because that way, you can guarantee that people are gonna do it on a consistent basis.

    Is there a better way of doing it? I honestly couldn't tell you.

  2. #4582
    "(Video) Developer Chat" new content preview maybe?
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  3. #4583
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    If they make content, they want it to be played by people, otherwise, it's a failed system and a waste of resources.
    If the content is only played because people are forced to do it, it's also a waste of resources because it's not fun and people will complain.

    For instance, despite being fully Mythic geared 421 ilvl, I still do World Quests every week because I can choose each one I find fun, same with weekly events. I'm not forced to do World Quests that I don't appreciate because it gives AP/Azerite anymore.

    Everything should work that way, for gear, people also have many options: Mythic+/PVP/Raid. Now imagine if the gear from Raid were 10-20 ilvl above everything else, there are no longer options for gear and everyone is forced to raid.

    I'm ok with Borrowed Power as long there's a weekly cap and I can fill it doing whatever I want, not awful activities such as Torghast.

  4. #4584
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    If the content is only played because people are forced to do it, it's also a waste of resources because it's not fun and people will complain.

    For instance, despite being fully Mythic geared 421 ilvl, I still do World Quests every week because I can choose each one I find fun, same with weekly events. I'm not forced to do World Quests that I don't appreciate because it gives AP/Azerite anymore.

    Everything should work that way, for gear, people also have many options: Mythic+/PVP/Raid. Now imagine if the gear from Raid were 10-20 ilvl above everything else, there are no longer options for gear and everyone is forced to raid.

    I'm ok with Borrowed Power as long there's a weekly cap and I can fill it doing whatever I want, not awful activities such as Torghast.
    I mean, it's already like that. M+ is just so much better for gearing compared to Raiding. Heroic is just plain useless, reward-wise.

  5. #4585
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    My thesis is that Blizzard is not gonna develop content that people might play. If they make content, they want it to be played by people, otherwise, it's a failed system and a waste of resources.

    The reason why Blizzard keeps "forcing" people into content like Torghast/Island Expeditions through stuff like Soul Ash or Azerite is because that way, you can guarantee that people are gonna do it on a consistent basis.

    Is there a better way of doing it? I honestly couldn't tell you.
    Heck it could be entirely about management control methods. If upper management judges the success of content by engagement metrics then the devs need to make sure the metrics will be good to keep their budget in place. If Torghast cost them this many dev hours and there is a minimum player engagement/$ standard, that's what they have to do to meet that number.
    And while I get this may sound counterproductive, budget needs to be allocated to tasks in some manner, it cannot just be per project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I'm ok with Borrowed Power as long there's a weekly cap and I can fill it doing whatever I want, not awful activities such as Torghast.
    A weekly cap that rolls forward! So if I could not do it one week I am not permanently behind. Just let me binge later on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    What is exactly current problem with progression again? During Legion/BfA/SL we had often heated discussions, but at least I understood more or less what issue people have with game.
    Personally I feel the 10.1 system seems fairly promising. It makes many more activities rewarding, offers a sense of progression to players focused on open world and match making, offers some progression to non-mythic raiders after they enter farm. My issues with it are that it seems needlessly complex and that I do not particularly appreciate the opportunity cost of upgrading items when a better item might be right around the corner and availability of upgrade items is not exactly that clear to me just yet. Plus it might incentivize keeping tons of items in your bags in case you want to upgrade them later which is just my nightmare. From the company that removed reforging and reduced enchants and gems significantly because they wanted us to wear items when we get them, this system is so far worse than those when it comes to making gearing complex.
    One of these days when I have time I'll make a post about what I'd like to see as a reward system . . .

  6. #4586
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Personally I feel the 10.1 system seems fairly promising. It makes many more activities rewarding, offers a sense of progression to players focused on open world and match making, offers some progression to non-mythic raiders after they enter farm. My issues with it are that it seems needlessly complex and that I do not particularly appreciate the opportunity cost of upgrading items when a better item might be right around the corner and availability of upgrade items is not exactly that clear to me just yet. Plus it might incentivize keeping tons of items in your bags in case you want to upgrade them later which is just my nightmare. From the company that removed reforging and reduced enchants and gems significantly because they wanted us to wear items when we get them, this system is so far worse than those when it comes to making gearing complex.
    One of these days when I have time I'll make a post about what I'd like to see as a reward system . . .
    The Upgrade system seems incredible, and hopefully they keep it, but I've been trying to explain it to some of my guild mates and it does seem excessively complicated. Plus, the fact that you have to replace your BIS trinket from a +2 down the line sucks a bit as well.

  7. #4587
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    The Upgrade system seems incredible, and hopefully they keep it, but I've been trying to explain it to some of my guild mates and it does seem excessively complicated. Plus, the fact that you have to replace your BIS trinket from a +2 down the line sucks a bit as well.
    I get the different decisions made behind it; it forces you to grab gear from a higher difficulty instead of trying to grind it in the easiest difficulty and then upgrade it, it offers progression to all without forcing people to do content they don't want to (outside trinkets/items with cantrips from Raid/M+ as always but there will never be a good solution to that) and perhaps most importantly, it makes any drop potential valueable.
    I hope that it will be much easier in practice than it is when you read through it. Fully expect some WA checklist to make sure I am not missing some type of crest.
    I'd personally prefer a simpler system but I don't think Blizzard devs ever learned the concept of elegant design.

  8. #4588
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Prediction:

    • The new World Tree will be significant, but it won't be the only home for the Night Elves.
    • The Kaldorei, being Elune's favoured children, will find that their home is everywhere where life grows, and where Elune's radiant gaze reaches. In the forest, and beneath the stars.
    • Using the World Trees and Great Trees, they travel between locations so as to be able to efficiently protect life against any who would harm it. A special fast travel network, of sorts.
    • Northern Kalimdor may no longer be in Night Elf control, but it is still important to them. Groups of battle-hardened elves still walk these forests, and still carry out ancient rites by the shrines they come across along the road. They still look after the denizens of the woodland, praise Elune at the root of Nordrassil, and sleep in their dens deep in the earth. But Feralas, Duskwood, and other places are also important to them. Everywhere is.
    • As for buildings and settlements, this is no longer the Kaldorei way. They are wanderers. Some are gracious, noble, and devout. Some are feral, ferocious, and aggressive. But they do not erect massive temples or lodges. Azeroth is their home.

  9. #4589
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I get the different decisions made behind it; it forces you to grab gear from a higher difficulty instead of trying to grind it in the easiest difficulty and then upgrade it, it offers progression to all without forcing people to do content they don't want to (outside trinkets/items with cantrips from Raid/M+ as always but there will never be a good solution to that) and perhaps most importantly, it makes any drop potential valueable.
    I hope that it will be much easier in practice than it is when you read through it. Fully expect some WA checklist to make sure I am not missing some type of crest.
    I'd personally prefer a simpler system but I don't think Blizzard devs ever learned the concept of elegant design.
    I think it will feel more intuitive once you actually see it. It's never easy to explain hypothetical loot drops, and difficulties having different loot tiers with different upgrade levels without actually seeing it in practice.

    The way i understood it is that you have the same system as M+, except with different tiers of upgrades, rather than what we have now with a simple 1-12 upgrade path requiring the same resource all the way through.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #4590
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    My thesis is that Blizzard is not gonna develop content that people might play. If they make content, they want it to be played by people, otherwise, it's a failed system and a waste of resources.

    The reason why Blizzard keeps "forcing" people into content like Torghast/Island Expeditions through stuff like Soul Ash or Azerite is because that way, you can guarantee that people are gonna do it on a consistent basis.

    Is there a better way of doing it? I honestly couldn't tell you.
    I disagree implication in bold. It's more of spectrum than a binary pass/fail.

    If content is unenjoyable and played by no one, it is a failure.
    If content is enjoyable and played by some, it is a success.
    If content is enjoyable and played by most, it is also a success.
    If content is unenjoyable and you have to force people to play it, it is a failure regardless of how many people engage with it.

    At that point, you're just cultivating antagonism and burnout in your playerbase. And we're seeing that price paid with the popularity of Dragonflight, as fantastic as it is. They burnt through so much of their dedicated playerbase by forcing them into engaging with content they had no interest in for the sake of metrics. And as they say, "A measure that becomes a target ceases to be a good measure."

  11. #4591
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    [*]Northern Kalimdor may no longer be in Night Elf control, but it is still important to them. Groups of battle-hardened elves still walk these forests, and still carry out ancient rites by the shrines they come across along the road. They still look after the denizens of the woodland, praise Elune at the root of Nordrassil, and sleep in their dens deep in the earth. But Feralas, Duskwood, and other places are also important to them. Everywhere is.
    Northern Kalimdor is no less in Night Elf control than it was in vanilla

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I think it will feel more intuitive once you actually see it. It's never easy to explain hypothetical loot drops, and difficulties having different loot tiers with different upgrade levels without actually seeing it in practice.

    The way i understood it is that you have the same system as M+, except with different tiers of upgrades, rather than what we have now with a simple 1-12 upgrade path requiring the same resource all the way through.
    My question is, how much of this is currency and how much is items. Because the crests are probably items. And they come in fragments. And enchanted variety if you want to use them for crafting. So we are talking about a lot of bag slots.

  12. #4592
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Northern Kalimdor is no less in Night Elf control than it was in vanilla
    I too, enjoy making baseless assertions. But based on current lore, your claim is incorrect.

    Teldrassil lies in ashes, Darkshore is gone, Azshara is under complete Horde control, Ashenvale has been mostly destroyed or occupied by the Horde, Felwood is still the hellhole it's been for thousands of years, and Moonglade is more of a Druid sanctuary than anything else.

    You could argue there are some Night Elves holed up on Mount Hyjal, and there are probably pockets of their civilization still intact here and there in the surrounding forests.

    But overall, northern Kalimdor is definitely less controlled by the Night Elves than it was in Vanilla.

  13. #4593
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Northern Kalimdor is no less in Night Elf control than it was in vanilla

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    My question is, how much of this is currency and how much is items. Because the crests are probably items. And they come in fragments. And enchanted variety if you want to use them for crafting. So we are talking about a lot of bag slots.
    I imagine the flightstones is a currency, and the crests are actual items.
    The flightstones are the thing everyone needs, and the crests i imagine will be sold if they are useless. Or given to an NPC like the useless primal infusions are currently.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #4594
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    My question is, how much of this is currency and how much is items. Because the crests are probably items. And they come in fragments. And enchanted variety if you want to use them for crafting. So we are talking about a lot of bag slots.
    The crests are items, though likely able to fit in the reagent back. They're used for crafting.

    Flightstones are most likely currency.

  15. #4595
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    The crests are items, though likely able to fit in the reagent back. They're used for crafting.

    Flightstones are most likely currency.
    I guess they would be, they are enchanting reagents after all. As for flightstones it seems we will be getting them in bundle items so hopefully they will automatically become currency instead of having to be used from the bag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I imagine the flightstones is a currency, and the crests are actual items.
    The flightstones are the thing everyone needs, and the crests i imagine will be sold if they are useless. Or given to an NPC like the useless primal infusions are currently.
    Past a point you do need crests. Obviously low level crests will be useless to many players. I hope they have at least a vendor cost and you don't have to delete them manually.
    As for primal infusions yeah, they are useless now but they were very useful for much of the season.

  16. #4596
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I guess they would be, they are enchanting reagents after all. As for flightstones it seems we will be getting them in bundle items so hopefully they will automatically become currency instead of having to be used from the bag.

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    Past a point you do need crests. Obviously low level crests will be useless to many players. I hope they have at least a vendor cost and you don't have to delete them manually.
    As for primal infusions yeah, they are useless now but they were very useful for much of the season.
    I think there were four different crests, and you only needed two for whatever upgrades. So i imagine that your bag filling with crests won't be a consistent issue unless you are a cutting edge raider hoping to upgrade potential busted WQ items. The lowest level obes will be quickly obsolete, and the highest level ones will be unobtainable to most players.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #4597
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I think there were four different crests, and you only needed two for whatever upgrades. So i imagine that your bag filling with crests won't be a consistent issue unless you are a cutting edge raider hoping to upgrade potential busted WQ items. The lowest level obes will be quickly obsolete, and the highest level ones will be unobtainable to most players.
    Aspect crests will generally not be seen by a lot of players, sure. It's still more inventory junk though. I just like my bags to be tidy

  18. #4598
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I too, enjoy making baseless assertions. But based on current lore, your claim is incorrect. Teldrassil lies in ashes, Darkshore is gone, Azshara is under complete Horde control, Ashenvale has been mostly destroyed or occupied by the Horde, Felwood is still the hellhole it's been for thousands of years, and Moonglade is more of a Druid sanctuary than anything else. You could argue there are some Night Elves holed up on Mount Hyjal, and there are probably pockets of their civilization still intact here and there in the surrounding forests. But overall, northern Kalimdor is definitely less controlled by the Night Elves than it was in Vanilla.
    My version if WoW 2.0 holds Teldrassil never burned. Ashenvale cleansed from the horde pestilence, with Splintertree Post as a druid sanctuary. Silverwing Refuge is more a garrison with a portal to Azshara garrison where a battle ousted the feculent goblins. On the opposite shoreline are cautious naga traders, with naga guards (scaled level is always "red" to any who attack)

    Night Elves will have a militancy that is mitigated by their alliance with the Tauren nation that will posit spirituality in actions and shared in part with precepts of Elune.

  19. #4599
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I too, enjoy making baseless assertions. But based on current lore, your claim is incorrect.

    Teldrassil lies in ashes, Darkshore is gone, Azshara is under complete Horde control, Ashenvale has been mostly destroyed or occupied by the Horde, Felwood is still the hellhole it's been for thousands of years, and Moonglade is more of a Druid sanctuary than anything else.

    You could argue there are some Night Elves holed up on Mount Hyjal, and there are probably pockets of their civilization still intact here and there in the surrounding forests.

    But overall, northern Kalimdor is definitely less controlled by the Night Elves than it was in Vanilla.

    That is not entirely true. This is from Exploring Kalimdor (wowpedia article):
    "Even with its many losses, Ashenvale remains a lush wilderness filled with chittering animals, clear rivers and lakes, and towering trees. The Horde continues its lumber operations at the Warsong Lumber Camp, and the Sentinels attack Splintertree Post and patrol the Ashenvale border."

    So they are maybe a bit less in control... and the forest is less populated by Nelfs. But they still control most of the forest. I think the Horde even lost control to at least one or two ways into Ashenvale so it is unknown how they get the lumber out of the forest now. I think it was implied that there are not enough Sentinels to keep the Horde out of the forest.
    Exploring Kalimdor was a messy book, so who knows what it will look like if they ever update it ingame.

    Felwood is still the hellhole it's been for thousands of years
    No it wasn't, it is that way only since WC3 (so for maybe 30-50 years?) but yeah according to Exploring Kalimdor there are still fel creatures everywhere. (Even through during cata it was said that it is healing.
    It is almost like a certain person who wrote the book just wrote down what he saw currently ingame (or it was initially planned to be about the vanilla state)

    In the Exploring Kalimdor book Alliance also rearmed Northwatch in the Barrens, almost everything went back to the state of Cataclysm!
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2023-04-25 at 01:09 PM.

  20. #4600
    All the Exploring books so far have taken place before the timeskip, so there's a 3-5 year gap between them and what they currently would look like during DF. So they don't have to adhere to anything in the books, they are just a snapshot of their Cata-BFA state.

    While people wanted them to give new revamp-ish lore to the zones, it makes sense that they wouldn't lock themselves into anything: they don't want to promise anything about the zones in case they A) can't change them B) change their minds later.

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