The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Civciv]

No thanks, I disagree heavily. You don't have to do them.




To be fair the renown system in DF is better then the SL version of it.

You don't have to do them all on reset day though? Lol.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I said that I'd prefer if Jaina kicked the bucket instead of him. Because he barely got any spotlight and he was killed off, while Jaina was hogging a spotlight for ALOT of time, and she constantly flip flops persnalitywise. She is either mad/irrational or strives again to bring peace. If Jaina was on warpath again, trying to do what her father tried to do in the past, it would be fitting end for her to die exactly as her father did - trying to invade foreign nation, and bring destruction on it's way instead of focusing on actual enemy.

With Rastakhan it owuld be much better to watch him get back to show what a great leder he was in the past and justify his years on the throne, he had amazing personality and was fun to be around. And lastly. Did Horde even had a proper family dynamic? I know that Thrall has kids, but we never saw him interact with them.
So Talanji and Rastakhan would be first proper family among major Horde NCPs. It would be great to watch father and daughter interact and learn from one another.

So I disagree with you wholeheartly, that was a massive waste. And to me as a troll fan, it's even more upseting, that he didn't even last until end of expansion. Guy was killed in the first patch. My goodness. It's absolutely awful. And his replacement isn't half as entertaining as he is.

Eh, I feel the intersection between Jaina and Rastakhan in the narrative is too small compared to their places on the role; Having Jaina die on the attack of Zuldazar would have rung hollow pretty much the other way around. NGL, if Jaina had remained on the warpath up to Zandalar it might have worked, but 10.0 has been pretty much about resetting Jaina to a more pre-Theramore mental state, so it really wouldn't had made sense.

And again, the issues with Rastakhan exist mostly divorced from his interaction with Jaina; anything could have killed him and fulfilled the same intended emotional punch. So again, weird to make this a "Jaina should have died" when they matter so little to each other's narrative paths.

I won't disagree with Rastakhan's death is a waste because beyond the emotional punch nothing was really done with it even when it WAS a good set up and tragic end of a character, but if we're going to be honest had Rastakhan lived he wouldn't have done anything else the rest of BfA, pretty much like Talanji

[Sondrelk]

Eh, I feel the intersection between Jaina and Rastakhan in the narrative is too small compared to their places on the role; Having Jaina die on the attack of Zuldazar would have rung hollow pretty much the other way around. NGL, if Jaina had remained on the warpath up to Zandalar it might have worked, but 10.0 has been pretty much about resetting Jaina to a more pre-Theramore mental state, so it really wouldn't had made sense.

And again, the issues with Rastakhan exist mostly divorced from his interaction with Jaina; anything could have killed him and fulfilled the same intended emotional punch. So again, weird to make this a "Jaina should have died" when they matter so little to each other's narrative paths.

I won't disagree with Rastakhan's death is a waste because beyond the emotional punch nothing was really done with it even when it WAS a good set up and tragic end of a character, but if we're going to be honest had Rastakhan lived he wouldn't have done anything else the rest of BfA, pretty much like Talanji

The problem with Rastakhan's death to me was the same as all hte other issues in BfA. The Horde became too cartoonishly evil under Sylvanas, and the Alliance was too toothless in retaliation.
It was difficult to have sympathy for Rastakhan when he knowingly harbored people who had just destroyed most of a civilization quite happily. You couldnt really have him turn on his heel and lament how terrible it was that the Alliance was so intent on stopping the Horde.
Conversely, the Alliance should have been much more vengeful. Killing Rastakhan should have been a small moral stumbling stone, not the sign for a screeching halt to the offensive.

[Nymrohd]

The problem with Rastakhan's death to me was the same as all hte other issues in BfA. The Horde became too cartoonishly evil under Sylvanas, and the Alliance was too toothless in retaliation.
It was difficult to have sympathy for Rastakhan when he knowingly harbored people who had just destroyed most of a civilization quite happily. You couldnt really have him turn on his heel and lament how terrible it was that the Alliance was so intent on stopping the Horde.
Conversely, the Alliance should have been much more vengeful. Killing Rastakhan should have been a small moral stumbling stone, not the sign for a screeching halt to the offensive.

I'd counter that the Alliance killing Rastakhan made no sense. The Horde wanted ONE thing from the Zandalari; the Golden Fleet so they could both defend Kalimdor and attack Stormwind/retake Lordaeron. They should have blown up the Fleet and then laughed their way to Orgrimmar. By killing Rastakhan they effectively forced a weaker leader to ally with the Horde for protection both within her kingdom and from the Alliance. Obviously that absolutely moronic scenes that happens after the raid when Anduin's mere presence changes everyone perception on how a war should be conducted should never have happened. Blow up the fleet, strand significant Horde forces in what would then have been a politically hostile to them Zandalar and then regroup to attack Orgrimmar.

But the entire plot of BfA required the Alliance to have a collective lobotomy to work anyway. "Omg the Forsaken used the Blight, who could have ever predicted that!!!"

As for the Alliance being vengeful, the story makes a point to present the Alliance as weak every chance it gets, even though they keep winning which is just nonsense. How could they be vengeful when they did not have troops for anything.

[Sondrelk]

I'd counter that the Alliance killing Rastakhan made no sense. The Horde wanted ONE thing from the Zandalari; the Golden Fleet so they could both defend Kalimdor and attack Stormwind/retake Lordaeron. They should have blown up the Fleet and then laughed their way to Orgrimmar. By killing Rastakhan they effectively forced a weaker leader to ally with the Horde for protection both within her kingdom and from the Alliance. Obviously that absolutely moronic scenes that happens after the raid when Anduin's mere presence changes everyone perception on how a war should be conducted should never have happened. Blow up the fleet, strand significant Horde forces in what would then have been a politically hostile to them Zandalar and then regroup to attack Orgrimmar.

But the entire plot of BfA required the Alliance to have a collective lobotomy to work anyway. "Omg the Forsaken used the Blight, who could have ever predicted that!!!"

As for the Alliance being vengeful, the story makes a point to present the Alliance as weak every chance it gets, even though they keep winning which is just nonsense. How could they be vengeful when they did not have troops for anything.

That's what I mean by the plot lacking a vengeful Alliance. It would still have been a weird decision, but it would at least have been one that would have made sense within context if we were at the point where the Alliance were attacking the Zandalari for merely floating the idea of joining the Horde.

[Nymrohd]

That's what I mean by the plot lacking a vengeful Alliance. It would still have been a weird decision, but it would at least have been one that would have made sense within context if we were at the point where the Alliance were attacking the Zandalari for merely floating the idea of joining the Horde.

But that's not vengeful, that's stupid. A far more effective way to do vengeful would be to have the Alliance attack Horde members that had a lower committment to the Horde like the Tauren, Blood Elves and Nightborne.

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Btw does anyone know, what happens to guild affiliation after reset if I faction change a character?

[Sondrelk]

Btw does anyone know, what happens to guild affiliation after reset if I faction change a character?

I imagine that you will still be in the guild (unless of course you are the GM). Otherwise I guess the worst that could happen is that you need to be reinvited, though I find it hard to believe that is not a possibility someone has thought of already.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

You have things to do every day. There is repeatable content, there are grinds and the vast majority of vignettes and rares in WoW give rewards on a daily reset.

I mean there are, you aren't wrong. The Hunts are there but hunting rares isn't exactly the most engaging thing. I've been doing that in the Forbidden Reach for those vault keys. Its ok, not terrible but limited. I just(And I know thats unpopular in the community) I enjoy doing World quests. I've always jumped into them and I don't feel unsatisfied or bored. Putting the world quests every 3 days just seems like its trying to cater to people who have no self control. They should revert it.

You don't have to do them all on reset day though? Lol.

I don't but that completely misses the point.

[Hitei]

I mean there are, you aren't wrong. The Hunts are there but hunting rares isn't exactly the most engaging thing. I've been doing that in the Forbidden Reach for those vault keys. Its ok, not terrible but limited. I just(And I know thats unpopular in the community) I enjoy doing World quests. I've always jumped into them and I don't feel unsatisfied or bored. Putting the world quests every 3 days just seems like its trying to cater to people who have no self control. They should revert it.

I don't but that completely misses the point.

I also really wish they'd at least partially reset after being cleared. I'm not even someone who normally likes world quests, but you can definitely feel the limitations of the three day reset when you hit 70 on a random alt and check the gear rewards up and know there won't be any more gear options from that side of things for a couple days.

I haven't been following 10.1 stuff, do the world quests down there operate the same?

[Ramz]

I won't disagree with Rastakhan's death is a waste because beyond the emotional punch nothing was really done with it even when it WAS a good set up and tragic end of a character, but if we're going to be honest had Rastakhan lived he wouldn't have done anything else the rest of BfA, pretty much like Talanji

But it would open the door for development anyway. Because if he stayed in Zandalar, Talanji could be free to roam the world and and be active hero. Horde would ain healthy family dynamic, Rastakhan would gain redemption story. And Talanji could still grow and gain experience outside of Zandalar so when the time comes she would be much more insigtful ruler becuase of the experience she got during her expeditios. What we got was a massive waste.

And honestly OP characters were always a problem to properly balance faction dynamics. One Alliance character is perfectly capable of stopping entire army. As we saw with Malfurion and Jaina. And I am one of the people that is in favor of nerfing everyone, so armies, tactics and other factors actually matters.

Jaina was quite a mess for a long time, so she following the steps of her father and dying trying to invade other nation would be a good place to finally drop her for good since her character was turned to such a mess in the first place.

That's what I mean by the plot lacking a vengeful Alliance. It would still have been a weird decision, but it would at least have been one that would have made sense within context if we were at the point where the Alliance were attacking the Zandalari for merely floating the idea of joining the Horde.

Zandalari has absolutely no obligation there. It was a pure business on both parts, and I really dislike such aproach because even history shows that plenty of nationes joined "the evil ones", not becuase they agree but because there is something they could gain, and there was always some neuance to the story, like even allies can purposely sabotage each other when their interests clash.

I agree with @Nymrohd That entire assault was stupid. They already had all the things they wanted the moment they blew up the ships. It was not the Zandalari that were Alliance's enemies, but the Horde. By blowing the ships they made lots of people stuck on the island. and a free path to properly retaliate against the Horde and taking down Sylvanas. If Alliance was smart, and had actual intelligence operation unit, they could instigate conflict between Horde and Zandalri so they could fight with each other. And they had perfect opportiunity when Goblins were caught stealing gold from Atal'Dazar. That was a heinous act, and if reported to the King, he would get really angry.

[Nymrohd]

I agree with @Nymrohd That entire assault was stupid. They already had all the things they wanted the moment they blew up the ships. It was not the Zandalari that were Alliance's enemies, but the Horde. By blowing the ships they made lots of people stuck on the island. and a free path to properly retaliate against the Horde and taking down Sylvanas. If Alliance was smart, and had actual intelligence operation unit, they could instigate conflict between Horde and Zandalri so they could fight with each other. And they had perfect opportiunity when Goblins were caught stealing gold from Atal'Dazar. That was a heinous act, and if reported to the King, he would get really angry.

Honestly it is just a shame that Zandalar was wasted to be used for a faction war narrative. With Kul Tiras they managed to take two characters and a few lines of text in a non-canon product into three solid zones (imo Tiragarde and Drustvar are superb and among the best zones in the game, not just good).
Zandalar could have been its own expansion. It had enough lore before being added to suppor that. Add Mt Mugamba as a proper zone (maybe we could meet Harkoa again, cuddliest loa deserves hugs) and maybe give the Tortollans a proper zone. Instead of the faction narrative focus on the actual Zandalar plot. Maybe feature Hakkar instead of the slug. Instead of Battle for Dazar'alor being against the Alliance, it could have been a raid against the blood trolls. Pivot into Azshara later in the xpac.
But I'd still kill Rastakhan. I'd just give him a bit more time and a death that mattered. Rastakhan and Zul killing each other would be more satisfying. Rastakhan being killed by Dazar under Zul's control and then we kill Zul with Talanji's help would also be a fun alternative.

A faction war expansion should have taken place primarily in the old war, at lands the factions cared for. Like with Legion, the real events of the expansion happened in the mission table.

[Varodoc]

It was not the Zandalari that were Alliance's enemies, but the Horde..

Last I checked, didn't Rastakhan's unpunished royal advisor start an unprovoked war against the Alliance and even threatened Ironforge itself?

[Alanar]

Worlds Quests not being daily is one of the best things they've done this expansion.

I agree with this. I am glad they done this.

[Skildar]

Worlds Quests not being daily is one of the best things they've done this expansion.

I like the change but they should add a visual indicating in a single place when the WQ will be replaced by the second batch of the week. It might sound stupid but in my guild we've had quite a few people confused about it

[huth]

Last I checked, didn't Rastakhan's unpunished royal advisor start an unprovoked war against the Alliance and even threatened Ironforge itself?

That, and the Alliance thought Horde and Zandalari had much closer ties than they did. Basically, the assault was based on faulty intelligence.

[Alanar]

Eh, I feel the intersection between Jaina and Rastakhan in the narrative is too small compared to their places on the role; Having Jaina die on the attack of Zuldazar would have rung hollow pretty much the other way around. NGL, if Jaina had remained on the warpath up to Zandalar it might have worked, but 10.0 has been pretty much about resetting Jaina to a more pre-Theramore mental state, so it really wouldn't had made sense.

And again, the issues with Rastakhan exist mostly divorced from his interaction with Jaina; anything could have killed him and fulfilled the same intended emotional punch. So again, weird to make this a "Jaina should have died" when they matter so little to each other's narrative paths.

I won't disagree with Rastakhan's death is a waste because beyond the emotional punch nothing was really done with it even when it WAS a good set up and tragic end of a character, but if we're going to be honest had Rastakhan lived he wouldn't have done anything else the rest of BfA, pretty much like Talanji

Meaning, even if he had lived not much would have changed, outside the outcome. He should have just passed the mantle and stay as a backround spirituel leader.

Jaina was pretty vengefull since the start of bfa. Uch her whole character went from left to right and she was a perfect example of how strong the writers wanted her to be in that moment.

She was there looking down on the horde, while Rastakahn was dying. She was involved in a way.

I mean, its these things combined that ruined it for me. From the unnecessary Op flying ship and canons, teleporting when it suits them and the team. The raid, even worse. Tauning the horde to fight, knowing she has plot armor. That fight leading to literally nothing. After the raid we see her soft talking calia and later with thrall and friends like if nothing had happened. Meanwhile we lost a meaningfull character which literally just arrived.

My opinion didnt change one abit, I believe she should have bited the dust there. She lost so much credit in bfa.. she has been a drag. Its funny how quick people forget about her in bfa. Terrible.

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But it would open the door for development anyway. Because if he stayed in Zandalar, Talanji could be free to roam the world and and be active hero. Horde would ain healthy family dynamic, Rastakhan would gain redemption story. And Talanji could still grow and gain experience outside of Zandalar so when the time comes she would be much more insigtful ruler becuase of the experience she got during her expeditios. What we got was a massive waste.

And honestly OP characters were always a problem to properly balance faction dynamics. One Alliance character is perfectly capable of stopping entire army. As we saw with Malfurion and Jaina. And I am one of the people that is in favor of nerfing everyone, so armies, tactics and other factors actually matters.

Jaina was quite a mess for a long time, so she following the steps of her father and dying trying to invade other nation would be a good place to finally drop her for good since her character was turned to such a mess in the first place.




Zandalari has absolutely no obligation there. It was a pure business on both parts, and I really dislike such aproach because even history shows that plenty of nationes joined "the evil ones", not becuase they agree but because there is something they could gain, and there was always some neuance to the story, like even allies can purposely sabotage each other when their interests clash.

I agree with @Nymrohd That entire assault was stupid. They already had all the things they wanted the moment they blew up the ships. It was not the Zandalari that were Alliance's enemies, but the Horde. By blowing the ships they made lots of people stuck on the island. and a free path to properly retaliate against the Horde and taking down Sylvanas. If Alliance was smart, and had actual intelligence operation unit, they could instigate conflict between Horde and Zandalri so they could fight with each other. And they had perfect opportiunity when Goblins were caught stealing gold from Atal'Dazar. That was a heinous act, and if reported to the King, he would get really angry.

I think the story could have done so many things and its funny many people didnt wanted him to die. Ofc afterwards its nice to see the deeper meaning of certain choices, but that doesnt take away the fact that there was a lot of potential. Whats so weird to me, is that we see many NEWLY introduced characters all the time and many fall flat, because they are new and no one cares for them.

What makes it a wise move to keep killing famous names all the time? You can say what ever you want, but both Zul and Rastakahn had more allure and interest.

[Nymrohd]

That, and the Alliance thought Horde and Zandalari had much closer ties than they did. Basically, the assault was based on faulty intelligence.

Someone needs to explain me why Shaw still has a job.

Wait, that's why they made him gay. Now he is a protected class! /s

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Last I checked, didn't Rastakhan's unpunished royal advisor start an unprovoked war against the Alliance and even threatened Ironforge itself?

He did so while not aligned with Zandalar as he was in exile which the alliance should really know if there info network isn't awful. He was also already dead before BoD so he should be a pretty non factor for there attack.

[Nymrohd]

He did so while not aligned with Zandalar as he was in exile which the alliance should really know if there info network isn't awful. He was also already dead before BoD so he should be a pretty non factor for there attack.

He was not in exile though.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Zandalari_Library_Card
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The...ophecy_(quest)

Zul was never exiled. He was granted use of the fleet so he could scout for new lands to settle in case the Cataclysm happened. Which means his actions were sanctioned by Rastakhan. Rastakhan did it because Zul was upsetting his court; the move looked political. But really, early depictions of Zul showed him as a prophet who cared for his people against a royal who did not want to have to deal with a crisis. His rebellion was absolutely warranted.
Which is why arresting Zul when he was found was absolutely reasonable. He instigated crimes against sovereign lands of the Alliance AND those of the Pandaren, an allied people. The intelligent course of action would have been to keep Zul in the Stockades and keep Talanji in the palace where she would have practically been detained while visiting daily with Anduin and Alliance nobles and diplomats while Anduin assured her that she would be released as soon as her father send a proper escort for her.
I mean people kept accusing Blizzard of going Game of Thrones, maybe they could have actually tried it.

[huth]

He did so while not aligned with Zandalar as he was in exile which the alliance should really know if there info network isn't awful. He was also already dead before BoD so he should be a pretty non factor for there attack.

Well, see above. It is. They completely misgauged the Zandalari.